TheAcAvenger

I think that's absolutely a segment issue. You buy a big car for it to be luxurious, comfortable, etc. All those guys are pretty much equivalent in terms of performance anyway. Everything at that level is fairly subjective.

If we're going to talk technology at this segment, then we'd have to talk about Acura being the only ones who don't offer adaptive cruise (it was a 3 series option in 2007 for crying out loud). We'd have to talk about google maps on Audis. We'd have to talk about all the self-driving aids on the infiniti. Acura isn't winning that game either. The difference between the Accord and the TL has usually been better quality materials...and performance. The Accord has dual screens, mirrors in the camera, you can get adaptive cruise, it's got internet radio, all the connectivity, etc. How do you separate yourself from the accord without having a significant performance advantage? All wheel steering alone won't cut it. All wheel drive is a significant bonus, but then you're getting into a price bracket that puts you even closer to the germans that are running circles around you.

TheAcAvenger

My old man picked the A8 as well. I find myself visiting my parents on the holidays more often for some strange reason these days

docboy

Interesting question. I did a scant online search, and the EPA site states the gas guzzler tax is HP independent. It's currently imposed on vehicles achieving less than a combined fuel economy of 22.5mpg, and has a sliding tax range.

bla8291

Good thing they will never need to be replaced, unless there's a defect in any particular unit.

dnd2984

iTrader: (6)

whole bunch of "what if" and assumptions here.... Let the count down to the unveiling began

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

I totally get it's a dealership and privately owned. But I still think corporate has superpowers. A buddy of mine is a DM for GM. He is corporate but has quite a bit of clout with what he calls "these dinky dealers." Like I said most people are scared of the guy with influence above them that ensure their survival. I dunno, maybe Acura is more lax and hopefully you are OK.

"Going along" is exactly what most people do because they are raised and groomed that way. Some have that "evil" personality I mentioned. Their hallmark is manipulating others to get what they want and aggressively boxing out their coworkers. Whether it is sales and numbers in the beginning then promotions before others later. They hide it well so they can get to the top. Once there they make the decisions and command the ridiculous salary. Their whole agenda is power, control and money. They are VERY happy that the majority of the world believes in hard work, honesty, humane ethics and going with the flow so they can take advantage. You can say a business needs to be about profits and number crunching is OK. Then why pay the people at the top so disproportionately to people at the bottom? A company can sink and these guys will still jump out the window with a golden parachute.

So you're right, this holds the world back. You can't have a company full of followers and wimps. You can't have Type A bulls locking horns all day. A good company is driven by sound ethics, free expression and passion with SMART risks and number crunching. Small business does that best. It's why we all love Tesla. I hope it doesn't get too big for it's own good.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^Did I just read the whole premise of House of Cards?

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

I remember the first time I drove the 335i in 2007. It took me by surprise, it was an absolute ROCKET. It definitely felt more than the advertized 300hp. It's one of the reasons I didn't go crazy modding my engine. I realized that it would take crazy effort to beat a 335i even in stock form. I've driven many Bimmers after that with the same engine, it is always a gem of an engine. The only thing is that I see on the BMW forums many are experiencing reliability issues.

VR1

Well it depends if Corey is talking about 0.5 sec. faster then the Manual SHAWD or the Auto SHAWD TL. Because if he's talking about the current auto TL, then the TLX is actually slower then the outgoing manual version TL. I hope he's talking about 0.5 seconds faster then the manual TL, otherwise it'd be a pretty big fail...

I hope for Acuras sake that the V6 SHAWD can run high 4's/5's... Otherwise I don't see the value in a $47-50k version when a S4 can be had for ~53-54k.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Yep textbook "Narcissistic Personality Disorder". I can diagnose it a mile away. It is the true evil of our society. Sadly these people run our governments and corporations.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

The difference is that you and I are predisposed to going out and test driving the Acura to start. Joe Everyguy is sitting at this computer staring at the comparisons on Edmunds.com trying to figure out which car to buy and is more likely to see the 290 hp figure and scratch that off the list. On top of that, Acura doesn't have the brand cachet to get kept on the list just because it's an Acura when the rest of the list has over 300 hp. I do not particularly like the mentality, but consumers seldom make luxury car purchases entirely in the vacuum of logical thought.

On paper, they will be largely little things and likely fairly minor equipment differences at that. Some more prominent things might be HUD, WiFi hotspots, and some of the latest and greatest technology. The problem is really a matter of perception. I hate to admit it, but the majority of luxury car buyers put a lot of weight on that brand cachet and are willing to let a lot more slide for some brands than others. That means that to be a serious competitor, Acura needs to do more to get the same awareness.

Someone already mentioned this, but that is a different vehicle segment all together. However, you actually sort of proved a different point - Acura has been so keen to try to protect the tiny gap in horsepower that the RLX has that it has completely missed the point that horsepower is more important in the entry luxury class than in the mid-size luxury class. Giving the TLX more that 300 hp would help it stay more competitive in comparisons, whereas on the RLX, anything over 300 is just a nice to have.

I think we enthusiasts actually value the actual performance more than the average buyer, who is likely starting their search with a comparison table of numbers and eliminating options that way. The problem for Acura is that on that table, they will fail to stand out in a positive way. They no longer lead the class in anything besides possibly rear-seat legroom.

BEAR-AvHistory

Can't speak to all brands but my new one has a "remember last driver thing' so once you shut it off it stays off. Agree it sucks.

yooin14

As long as it performs better than current TL, I dont care about 290 HP.
With TLX's new sports + mode, its throttle response will be nothing like current TL.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

So true what CGTS said. Half the toys and gizmos people have in their cars, many people don't know how to use. I've been in a couple friends cars that knew they had heated seats but didn't know they were cooled too. They were like WOW! Some even use the navigation on their phone instead of the one in their dashboard, lol. And how many times have we seen people in a high end luxury car with a phone up to their ear when clearly they have bluetooth.

Most people use cars a luxury nameplate as a status symbol. Acura doesn't have that image yet, they wish they did and they have to break that 300hp ceiling. The problem is they aren't going to use a number that beats their RLX "flagship". The car is fast and adequate but people look at the numbers more than how the car drives. The car should really put out 350hp. Then 325hp for the TLX SH-AWD would make sense and people would take the brand more seriously and give it credit for the next step up. Right now the perception is the RLX is forgettable and nothing more than a modernized RL.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its a favorite game BMW plays to keep an imaginary spread among their product lines. My 335is is "rated" by BMW at 320BHP. Interesting thing is on a DynoJet chassis dyno it has 319WHP. That makes the official rating about 15% low.

The stock 335i has the lowest BHP rating 300 of the small Caddy 321 & Lexus 306 but is about a full second quicker in the quarter mile.

x95zsk

google glasses would have allowed you to "stream" what you are seeing (i am assuming that the glasses have software linking it to skype or something similar)

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Or how about Google contact lenses, I find that more crazy than anything. Nobody would know you were wearing them. There's going to be a hell lot more people getting doctorate degrees, winning gameshows and winning big in casinos.

BEAR-AvHistory

One thing I am surprised about is the loss of the under headlight LED's since the Accord has them. Nice touch missed.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

With the JewelEye LED headlights, the need for a separate LED DRL strip is negated.

winstrolvtec

Again, I share in the hp disappointment on paper because the 310 version was there and should have been included on the SH. I don't get the sense in protecting the RLX FWD from the SH, makes better sense on the two FWD versions (TLX, RLX). What makes for good marketing inside the brand gives away great marketing outside. However, maybe they also don't want to alienate the different TLX buyers as they did in the last gen and adding a bump at MMC or a sport variant later will allow for both goals to be accomplished. Maybe that would have began to step on the RLX hybrids toes, who knows?

However, that bit extra would have changed the demeanor of the car a bit to better reflect that red carpet athlete and that kind of thrill stuff they have been talking about. Think the car will still be a much better performer hands down, there is no question. To put it in another context, .5 sec faster on the outgoing model is worth about 50 hp, so it's not worth getting overly hung up over, again except for marketing and comparos.

I think the car will end up being a low to mid 5's car 0-60 and between mid and high 13's. Basically the normal or average against the compacts and class leading against the comparable engine mid size sedan. Would have been better against the 335's and S4's with that bump and engine demeanor but still not bad and these are only educated guesses, we will have to wait and see but don't suspect it will do much damage purely in terms of acceleration against those two cars either way.

They just have a bit of a challenge there anyway, not to mention the luxury image thing, whether we actually agree or not, and they have to sell AWD no matter how good it is to RWD consumer or those who may not have the need for it, so everything helps or would have. Of course at $50k loaded, so is a comparable 328, A4, C350, and in that light, the TLX would be a top notch performer, 300 hp or not and you can barely get into a mid size at that price elsewhere, so the value equation plays it's role in that as well.

docboy

This is a BAD move on Acura's part:

1) The under headlight LEDs on the front bumper was shown on all the videos and to me is a good exterior design (a rarity on Acura's part these days) and which is UNIQUE, much like Audi's signature LEDs.

Acura teases us with this new front end look, and then they take it away. WTH?

2) Said LEDs would distinguish Acura from the other vehicles, and would serve as an Acura signature look. Jewel Headlights + SHAWD + "Underheadlight LEDs" would give Acura a premium look/feel, and generate visual excitement and that wow aggressive factor.

I still don't get why said LEDs are not part of the TLX package (much like the futuristic side mirrors and the bumper chrome).

IMHO Acura has very little room for error with the TLX considering the meager sales of the ZDX, RLX, and even the ILX. Given the positive appreciation of the exterior features that made the prototype so well received, and Acura takes it away, leaving the TLX a possible bland-almost-baby RLX, may just go well to show there are boneheads working in Acura HQ.

I also agree on the <300hp issue. At this stage of the game, perception is everything. Sure to us here on AZ whether the TLX has 310 hp or 290hp or 300hp, it's not going to make a difference. But when your out there trying to sell a car, you want everything going for you.

Tonyware

Its interesting tho. Honda has a J35Y1, a J35Y2 and a J35Y4... so this will be the J35Y3? If that is the case these guys have been planning these horsepower/torque capacities a long time ago... since they skipped the Y3 and when to Y4 !! for a future engine (J35Y3 - if that is what it will be called) to fall in between the 310hp of the J35Y4 and the 278 of the J35Y2 (reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_J_engine with last edit date 16 March 2014).

PS. Sad to see the J37 go, or maybe not? J37A2, J37A4... the A3 is missing! LOL

keith7120

So is it true or not true that the new SH-AWD with the electric motors will add additional horse power? Maybe that will resolve the 290HP complaint.

mynameisjacob

Sigh. So I guess no exposed chrome exhaust tips huh?

Fine.

But I swear... if I bend down to look at the rear undercarriage, I better not see an exposed tailpipe that's bent down to sh!t on the floor.

Colin

We always hear that Acura isn't a true luxury brand, and numerous reasons are cited, usually things like HP (as you did) or the lack of RWD (or AWD across the board).

However, Acura's been at or above 300 for 5-10 years with RL, MDX, TL AWD. They have had SH-AWD for a decade and it was available in every car at one point or another (except TSX) since 2007.

I have seen no evidence that Acura as a brand has any more image clout than before (evidenced by all the people here saying so). This fails basic logic:

"If luxury equals 300HP and AWD and Acura provides it, then Acura must be Luxury."

"If Acura is not luxury, then 300HP and AWD must not be the defining aspects of luxury"

So what is it? IMO, Acura continues to be 'near' Luxury that offers elements of 'true' luxury brands at a more competitive price. They also carry elements of the Honda philosophy that says 'do more with less' so (again IMO) they take pride in matching the performance goals of the competition with smaller engines or with less HP.

What about all the Tier 1 talk? What are they supposed to say? "We want to go out there and finish 3rd!" Sheesh, it's PR. What does the guy who starts 32nd at the Indy 500 say before the race? "I'm going out there to lose for my sponsors" No, he say's "we have a better race car than we qualified, we'll use strategy and hope the race comes our way". It's marketing talk.

Then we hear "I just wish they'd shut up and make the car". Well, they've shut up. We're a day away from the official debut and it is wasn't for Corey, we'd know nothing. Of course, now we complain that they're not marketing it enough and telling us anything.

H_CAR

The target demographic doesn't care about what the hp rating of the car is. I've helped quite a few people buy cars in the last few months and not one of them asked about the hp rating of any of them. Like I said, those buying (leasing) cars like the 320i and 328i really don't know what kind of engine their car even has. All they know is it's fast and fuel efficient.

About Acura's marketing. They won't tout the decreased hp number, but they sure as hell will tout increased performance and fuel economy. That's what really matters and I'm surprised as car enthusiasts you guys don't see that.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

The problem is that you need the 300 hp, the AWD, the latest widgets, and a design that people like. Acura shot itself in the proverbial foot in 2009 with the 4G TL and 2G TSX designs, which polarized many prospective buyers and alienated many fans. So the last 5 years have done nothing for the brand in terms of building brand equity and cachet because people wrote it off for the design.

Now they finally have a chance to re-establish themselves with something that actually looks halfway decent and they are going to mess it up again by holding back on a different part of the equation? Seems foolish.

If Acura is not really shooting for Tier One, then stop talking about it and focus on a different message. To use your analogy, the guy starting 32nd at the Indy 500 isn't going to run out screaming about how he is going to be running with the front of the pack, he is going to talk about how he is going to pass as many people as possible and why his car is great. Only thing is, if this were Acura, he would be doing it while 50 hp down on the competition while running analog gauges.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Touting the increased performance still puts them behind several of their competitors (the 335i and S4 are both quicker) and the fuel economy only just edges out the BMW. Since most cars in the category get leased, a 335i ($419/month) will likely lease for only a little more than the TLX (probably $399/month). It is just not a compelling enough argument to sway buyers who are not predisposed to looking at Acura, and that's with the V6.

Looking at the I4, things look even worse since the 328i leases for $349/month and offers a lot more performance and nearly identical fuel economy.

Acura needed to come out of the gate swinging with everything. It is holding back too much at this point and is still playing things far too conservatively. One potential outcome is likely going to be a continued stagnation and nowhere near the growth they would like to see.

Goosew

iTrader: (1)

This is exactly my argument.

If the HP numbers were higher, sure they'd talk about them, but for the majority of consumers, I don't think it will be as huge a deal as some of you are making it.

Right now the big push is on fuel efficiency, and how the car feels in terms of amenities.

ACCURATEin

...This phenomenon is due to the exceptionally massive wheel gap that is evident on the 4g TL.

The wind, when approaching the TL laterally will blow into the wheel wells and the force of air entering lifts the car.

H_CAR

Performance numbers aren't out yet, so it's too early to say the TLX will be slower than the 335i X drive and S4. Not to mention, comparatively equipped, wouldn't the TLX SH-AWD Advanced be $6-$8,000 dollars cheaper? That's a lot of money.

There are people who DON'T want a BMW or Mercedes.... period. Just look at the IS250. It's a car that is really quite unimpressive, (Slow, thirsty, tiny back seat etc) yet Lexus is having no issues selling 4,000 a month of them, versus the objectively "better" BMW 3 series. People who want a BMW or Mercedes will get one, no matter what is on the market. There are still many who don't.

A BASE 328i leases for $349 a month which doesn't have real leather or a back up camera. No thanks.

mindanalyzer

considering this feature that you mention

- Fold down rear seats with trunk passthrough

It has me thinking. The only reason I bought the 2013 RDX (I had some issues at the beginning but it has grown on me a lot lately) instead of the TL is the vehicle capabilities to carry my road bike inside [without the need to remove the front wheel]. I own a trek carbon bike (see pic in my profile) in mint condition and I am planning to keep it that way.

Now I am curious if I will be able to carry my bike inside the new TLX (V6 w/ Tech & SH-AWD). If that were the case I would be able to shoot 2 birds with 1 bullet (fast sport car that is a delight to drive and being able to carry my road bike inside).

One idea is to try to get a TLX (V6, tech & SH-AWD) loaner in one of my future regular maintenance to test it extensively before making any decision. I wonder if the dealership will be able to offer this model & trim as loaners

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

If experience serves as a guide, the opening with the seats folded down for the TLX will likely be compromised and you will not be able to get your bike into and out of the car easily. As a fellow road cyclist, this is one of those things where I have decided that if I genuinely want the flexibility to toss my bike in the back, then a wagon is the absolute minimum.

Otherwise, expect to do a lot of wrangling to get the bike in and out of the back unless your bike is unusually small, which it doesn't look to be.

komplexZ

2014 Accord I4 2.4 DI comp ratio 11.1:1 - regular unleaded
2014 TSX I4 2.4 PI comp ratio 11.0:1 - premium unleaded....


So yes generally DI allows you to run higher comp ratio and still use regular. Excessive timing will likely be the driver for higher octane. Since this is an "all new" engine, with HP not much changed from the TSX and now with DI, I'd expect regular unleaded.

KeithL

And having owned my M37S I can tell you that engine is dated, a bit rough, raspy and un-refined. It seems to lack low end torque and needs replacing badly.

a35tl

My personal opinion on the whole "290hp" thing is, sure I would have preferred a number at or over 300hp just because it sounds cooler but if the car can get to 60 in under 5.5 seconds, I really don't give a crap. Give me 5.5 seconds or better 0-60 and 31+ mpg hwy and I'm quite content. To me the actual performance is far more important than the horsepower rating. Now if the performance comes back considerably slower than the 5.5 or worse than the current 4G TL, I would definitely take issue. But I don't believe that will be the case. I think over the life of the 5G TLX, that horsepower number will rise. Acura has definitely given themselves room to grow.

mylove4cars

This is a good comment; I still like to give them the benefit of the doubt even though it is not what I expected. Let's see what transpires.

In case the 0-60 times are in the low 5 sec this would be decent, cars in the mid 4 sec are much more expensive.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

But are we only judging based on performance numbers? Look at the ATS, it's much slower than the 335i and S4, but it's a much better driver's car. The Lexus IS also has its own strengths.

What everyone wants is simple from the TLX is simple:
- more powerful than 335i/s4
- faster than 335i/s4
- better handling than ATS
- More aggressive styling than IS
- Better build quality and material than A4
- Interior better than new C Class
- Price cheaper than Infiniti G
- As reliable as any Honda
- Have all features plus more than all competitors

Unfortunately, is the above really possible? I think we need to be realistic. Every car has its own faults. The 335i is fast, but the handling isn't quite as good as ATS or IS. The ATS has great handling, but other aspects fall short. The S4 is nice, but is way more $$. The IS is a great all-around vehicle, but it doesn't really excel in anything.

Goosew

iTrader: (1)

This isn't you give some, you get some,

This is you give none, you get all.

I agree that I don't believe you're list is possible. There's nothing wrong with being the jack of all things, and the master of none, as long as you do all things well (enough).

McMilli501

People will continue to speculate and flame Acura's motive for pages and pages beyond this regardless of what the end result is tomorrow for the TLX release. The majority of us are here as new or old Honda fans... tomorrow is a big day for many people, including myself.