One option; and buy the TLX SH-AWD V6 for 57,000
03-31-2014, 09:14 PM
#81
2016 E350 Sport
04-01-2014, 01:41 AM
#82
The numbers are not hypothetical, I agree, what they represent or are interpreted to mean might be, however. If you're assuming all other things are equal, or close enough, and only equating brand name to price = sales and not taking anything else or anything relative to very varying products, and the market reaction to them, into consideration that would be hypothetical.
If brands only sold boxes on wheels with badges, I think that premise would make sense and as much as many people particularly in this area of the market may flock to particular brand A or B and don't really see past those things, or only see them first anyway, because of image, perception and portrayal, and what not, there are still cars attached to them with very different components and characteristics, etc.
You can clearly see this by example of 3G to 4G. Very different outcomes as we know and the average selling price is in line with what it was then considering inflation, discounts, interest rates, and the higher priced SH variants. So the difference must be attributed to so much more than price and badge. Now I'm not discrediting the idea in total, it just doesn't hold up as well outside of the vacuum you have created for it or around it. To a smaller degree or very vague one but one that is hard to put a finger on anyway.
It's one example but the MDX seems to do fine with an average selling point of at or around $50k despite being an Acura. My guess is that it is probably Acura's single best model at delivering either exactly or much of what that market wants or even going as far as defining what that is or should be. It's purpose is clear and concise, mid size luxury SUV and I don't think many put it on a different luxury level than comparable competitor even those coming form higher regarded luxury brands.
The RLX just doesn't fit, FWD full size aimed at mid size mostly RWD made up market. While I commend Acura for cleaning up the segment variation and putting some distance between their sedans, they are not clean and concise enough, with regards to where and how others compete or even where they want to compete and so it often gets negative attention, not necessarily in of itself but because of how it relates to others there. The ILX has the same problem, while the TL suffers from that a bit but less because there is a large FWD luxury sedan market, so it appears it has had it's own problems to go with that.
Still there is something to that $50k mark and Acura in general but I draw a line with it, it appears at any chance, you are at the same time suggesting that Acura has a hard time at mid $30k's and a hard time at $50k's and therefore the $40k's but that can go on forever if we pick and chose what supports that and then suggest that they shouldn't do it but how are they supposed to cross that hurdle if they don't keep at it?
And I still think it's a mostly a matter of perspective, they are not a top 3 selling luxury brand but whatever the next best thing is, they're right there so it's not as if they are not a heavily accepted luxury brand in general. The truth and also non hypothetical reality of the top 3 is that they tend to have a lot more success in the compact sport segment and the mid size executive or mid level segment, with exception to Lexus whose RX and ES carry the brand that much higher.
All the other models and variations are not all that worthwhile in terms of sales, of course just like we should maybe consider for some Acura models as well, there may not really be a mass market for them or no particular one has the larger slice or slices. Now, notice what Acura has for those segments specifically and how they are different. Coincidence? As it relates to solidifying mass market sales, there is a trend in getting lower priced and reaching down market as well as getting more de-contented among many luxury brands, while Acura is trying to push up almost across the board.
The NSX won't translate to high end TL sales but it, and another even higher end TL as described here, will translate to lower and mid sales of all models to varying degrees and that's pretty much sums up the largest difference of sales and luxury image differences between Acura and other brands IMO.
A model like the one being discussed here would be welcome because they do need to do something to shake up the brand among the sedans, no matter what it means for the RLX because not only did they stump brand growth to cater to the RL before and paid for it, others don't have a problem with a lower model's pricing exceeding the next one up. Doesn't matter, as we see, people buy it how they like it, different cars anyway. You don't automatically go for a 5 because you shopped a mid to high 3, for example.
If brands only sold boxes on wheels with badges, I think that premise would make sense and as much as many people particularly in this area of the market may flock to particular brand A or B and don't really see past those things, or only see them first anyway, because of image, perception and portrayal, and what not, there are still cars attached to them with very different components and characteristics, etc.
You can clearly see this by example of 3G to 4G. Very different outcomes as we know and the average selling price is in line with what it was then considering inflation, discounts, interest rates, and the higher priced SH variants. So the difference must be attributed to so much more than price and badge. Now I'm not discrediting the idea in total, it just doesn't hold up as well outside of the vacuum you have created for it or around it. To a smaller degree or very vague one but one that is hard to put a finger on anyway.
It's one example but the MDX seems to do fine with an average selling point of at or around $50k despite being an Acura. My guess is that it is probably Acura's single best model at delivering either exactly or much of what that market wants or even going as far as defining what that is or should be. It's purpose is clear and concise, mid size luxury SUV and I don't think many put it on a different luxury level than comparable competitor even those coming form higher regarded luxury brands.
The RLX just doesn't fit, FWD full size aimed at mid size mostly RWD made up market. While I commend Acura for cleaning up the segment variation and putting some distance between their sedans, they are not clean and concise enough, with regards to where and how others compete or even where they want to compete and so it often gets negative attention, not necessarily in of itself but because of how it relates to others there. The ILX has the same problem, while the TL suffers from that a bit but less because there is a large FWD luxury sedan market, so it appears it has had it's own problems to go with that.
Still there is something to that $50k mark and Acura in general but I draw a line with it, it appears at any chance, you are at the same time suggesting that Acura has a hard time at mid $30k's and a hard time at $50k's and therefore the $40k's but that can go on forever if we pick and chose what supports that and then suggest that they shouldn't do it but how are they supposed to cross that hurdle if they don't keep at it?
And I still think it's a mostly a matter of perspective, they are not a top 3 selling luxury brand but whatever the next best thing is, they're right there so it's not as if they are not a heavily accepted luxury brand in general. The truth and also non hypothetical reality of the top 3 is that they tend to have a lot more success in the compact sport segment and the mid size executive or mid level segment, with exception to Lexus whose RX and ES carry the brand that much higher.
All the other models and variations are not all that worthwhile in terms of sales, of course just like we should maybe consider for some Acura models as well, there may not really be a mass market for them or no particular one has the larger slice or slices. Now, notice what Acura has for those segments specifically and how they are different. Coincidence? As it relates to solidifying mass market sales, there is a trend in getting lower priced and reaching down market as well as getting more de-contented among many luxury brands, while Acura is trying to push up almost across the board.
The NSX won't translate to high end TL sales but it, and another even higher end TL as described here, will translate to lower and mid sales of all models to varying degrees and that's pretty much sums up the largest difference of sales and luxury image differences between Acura and other brands IMO.
A model like the one being discussed here would be welcome because they do need to do something to shake up the brand among the sedans, no matter what it means for the RLX because not only did they stump brand growth to cater to the RL before and paid for it, others don't have a problem with a lower model's pricing exceeding the next one up. Doesn't matter, as we see, people buy it how they like it, different cars anyway. You don't automatically go for a 5 because you shopped a mid to high 3, for example.
You spelled out what I'm trying to explain from the start.
04-01-2014, 04:47 AM
#83
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A model like the one being discussed here would be welcome because they do need to do something to shake up the brand among the sedans, no matter what it means for the RLX because not only did they stump brand growth to cater to the RL before and paid for it, others don't have a problem with a lower model's pricing exceeding the next one up. Doesn't matter, as we see, people buy it how they like it, different cars anyway. You don't automatically go for a 5 because you shopped a mid to high 3, for example.
Even the top end 4G purchasers would have to step up over $10K. I can appreciate the dream but can’t see the reality of a car company investing hundreds of millions of dollars in it.
If they want to sell more cars they need to go back to what they did well in the past, a good car at a good price undercutting the premiums, rather then try to step up into the never never land of the first tiers breadbasket. Last time they did that even with sub 300BHP cars they were knocking out 50-60K units per year & leading the entry level segment.
BTW the Acura SUV selling at $50K is not relevant since it’s a different market with different dynamics than the sedans. My Ford had a MSRP in the mid $50’s & to replace it today would MSRP at $62K (its not the most expensive Ford SUV model) outside of their pickup trucks they have no everyday $50K+ people carriers.
When you start throwing around numbers like $57K for a car try taking a look at the "what do you do for a living" thread & see how much of a base is there even among the brands hardcore fans many who have bought the current top model to support that kind of additional $10/12K expense.
Then think about the other 30,000 or so people who bought TL's in the average price range last year
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-01-2014 at 04:51 AM.
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rockyfeller (04-10-2014)
04-01-2014, 05:52 AM
#84
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
This right here has been the problem with Acura in the recent years. They DON'T get it. A company with such great potential yet still so lost. That's why our expectations are not so high and we almost expect them to screw up something. A lot of companies have learned some expensive lessons and Acura is still learning from it's own, yet it still continues to make them.
The NSX is a great example. They WOWED the world unveiling it in 2011. To launch in 2015?? Are they stupid? They should have launched that car in 2013 while the pan was still hot. It has been the best time for that supercar territory because the ultra-rich have been on that economic uprise just looking for a new toy. (notice I said ultra-rich on the uprise, not the middle class
) It was prime time. Why wait? What is keeping this company from forging ahead into new territory and taking risks?
Now they say it will launch in 2015. OK that's nice. By that time the design already is not looking as cutting edge as it did 3 yrs ago. They also gave their competitors a head start and gave their game away in a sense. And here they are with a volume car that most of us might buy and they're being hush about it. In some ways I understand where they are coming from and why they do these things, but they don't translate. This company is run by idiots.
The NSX is a great example. They WOWED the world unveiling it in 2011. To launch in 2015?? Are they stupid? They should have launched that car in 2013 while the pan was still hot. It has been the best time for that supercar territory because the ultra-rich have been on that economic uprise just looking for a new toy. (notice I said ultra-rich on the uprise, not the middle class
) It was prime time. Why wait? What is keeping this company from forging ahead into new territory and taking risks? Now they say it will launch in 2015. OK that's nice. By that time the design already is not looking as cutting edge as it did 3 yrs ago. They also gave their competitors a head start and gave their game away in a sense. And here they are with a volume car that most of us might buy and they're being hush about it. In some ways I understand where they are coming from and why they do these things, but they don't translate. This company is run by idiots.
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rockyfeller (04-10-2014)
04-01-2014, 07:10 AM
#85
I just wonder who exactly it would be welcomed by, actually purchased. The average $36/37K TL buyer stepping up $20K? One of the people here who comment over & over, “I would not spend that for any car”? Or the MB, Audi & BMW are two expensive when the average price of the biggest dollar spread over the TL is only $7K more not $20K.
Even the top end 4G purchasers would have to step up over $10K. I can appreciate the dream but can’t see the reality of a car company investing hundreds of millions of dollars in it.
If they want to sell more cars they need to go back to what they did well in the past, a good car at a good price undercutting the premiums, rather then try to step up into the never never land of the first tiers breadbasket. Last time they did that even with sub 300BHP cars they were knocking out 50-60K units per year & leading the entry level segment.
BTW the Acura SUV selling at $50K is not relevant since it’s a different market with different dynamics than the sedans. My Ford had a MSRP in the mid $50’s & to replace it today would MSRP at $62K (its not the most expensive Ford SUV model) outside of their pickup trucks they have no everyday $50K+ people carriers.
When you start throwing around numbers like $57K for a car try taking a look at the "what do you do for a living" thread & see how much of a base is there even among the brands hardcore fans many who have bought the current top model to support that kind of additional $10/12K expense.
Then think about the other 30,000 or so people who bought TL's in the average price range last year
Even the top end 4G purchasers would have to step up over $10K. I can appreciate the dream but can’t see the reality of a car company investing hundreds of millions of dollars in it.
If they want to sell more cars they need to go back to what they did well in the past, a good car at a good price undercutting the premiums, rather then try to step up into the never never land of the first tiers breadbasket. Last time they did that even with sub 300BHP cars they were knocking out 50-60K units per year & leading the entry level segment.
BTW the Acura SUV selling at $50K is not relevant since it’s a different market with different dynamics than the sedans. My Ford had a MSRP in the mid $50’s & to replace it today would MSRP at $62K (its not the most expensive Ford SUV model) outside of their pickup trucks they have no everyday $50K+ people carriers.
When you start throwing around numbers like $57K for a car try taking a look at the "what do you do for a living" thread & see how much of a base is there even among the brands hardcore fans many who have bought the current top model to support that kind of additional $10/12K expense.
Then think about the other 30,000 or so people who bought TL's in the average price range last year
But if Acura brings a car like OP suggested for that price, wouldn't it bring customers who would otherwise be buying something else in that price range? I see you have a 435M-Sport, wouldn't you have considered it if such a car existed?
Vip.
04-01-2014, 08:24 AM
#86
For context - my wife drove an RDX ($40k), QX50 ($46k), and X3 28i ($57k) last Saturday, in that order. Loved the RDX, but as soon as she sat in the QX50 it was all over. Her comments were along the lines of "much more luxurious", then while driving "more responsive and fun". She thought the X3 was the best handling/performing car, but not as luxurious as the QX50.
The final analysis:
QX50: perfect fit, luxurious, fun, exactly what she wants
X3: awesome drive, enough cargo room, given not an exact fit...too expensive
RDX: ticks all the boxes, not luxurious or sporty, but a "great" family value
Now perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I don't see this market segmentation problem with regards to price. I'd be all over it if there were an Acura for me to reasonably compare against an optioned up $60k 335/435 Gran Coupe with the MPPK (manufacturer boost to ~350hp/350lbft).
However, after driving the current 335 and TL back to back there is no comparison on the suspension front. That would need to change, and sadly doesn't appear to be on Acura's list.
My point is that there might be a lot more potential buyers out there who would consider a $50k-$60k TLX if it could actually compete like a "Red Carpet Athlete".
By the way, what does "Red Carpet Athlete" really mean?
The final analysis:
QX50: perfect fit, luxurious, fun, exactly what she wants
X3: awesome drive, enough cargo room, given not an exact fit...too expensive
RDX: ticks all the boxes, not luxurious or sporty, but a "great" family value
Now perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I don't see this market segmentation problem with regards to price. I'd be all over it if there were an Acura for me to reasonably compare against an optioned up $60k 335/435 Gran Coupe with the MPPK (manufacturer boost to ~350hp/350lbft).
However, after driving the current 335 and TL back to back there is no comparison on the suspension front. That would need to change, and sadly doesn't appear to be on Acura's list.
My point is that there might be a lot more potential buyers out there who would consider a $50k-$60k TLX if it could actually compete like a "Red Carpet Athlete".
By the way, what does "Red Carpet Athlete" really mean?
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boe_d (04-02-2014)
04-01-2014, 08:40 AM
#87
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The $57,000 thing started with someone speculating whether they would want a road going car that they would call a TLX GT.
When you start doing things like that, it's hard to estimate the cost but I can very well imagine that $57,000 would not be out of the question and they would not be looking to appeal to the people who had bought the 3G TL in any form.
It is a niche market. They only sold about 3,000 total 2006-2007 Accord 6-6 Sedans, but the people who bought them love them to death. Not that many people bought the ITR in the USA, all the way through the 1997-2001 model years, but the people who got them loved them to death.
Those are the people who'd tend to buy a road going TLX GT. There aren't many of them, but they'd love Honda and Acura all the more that such a vehicle was produced for them.
You know, now that I think about it, I am not sure what transmission they would possess to use with a road going TLX GT. I cannot imagine being able to produce the NSX DCT transmission in quantities high enough to be able to use them in the TLX line...but maybe they've been planning this in secret and we've just not heard about it.
Last edited by George Knighton; 04-01-2014 at 08:43 AM.
04-01-2014, 11:44 AM
#88
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We just beat the platform thing to death so I will not go back over that ground other than to say I enjoy RWD more than FWD & my trucks have all the AWD I need or want.
For the money right now you can get a basic 335i @ $45,325 including a 6MT & dynamic handling package; put in a $500 JB4 & drive away with 400whp+ or 460hp at the crank. That leaves 11K to play with for other stuff compared to the $57K TLX. I think Acura would have to come in at no more than $50K or $2/3K more than their current top performer to sell the car.
Personally I generally get my cars well optioned rather than a basic model. For what’s it worth my 2011 335is was a limited production, US only for 2 years, parts bin special with a different 3.0 liter motor than the standard 335i. BMW sold 10,000 cars 5 each coupe & convertible.
The premium over a well optioned 335i coupe or convertible was about $2500. A lot of the parts came off the M-performance parts list & the IS package was cheaper than going Ala Carte with a 335i. Same is true for the 135is.
The 2011 335is is being replace by the 2014 435M-Sport with the MPPK option is a similar package, but not limited production with a better handling system but a little less power than the 335is.
BTW If anyone is interested they just moved the Cobra build thread to Car Talk
https://acurazine.com/forums/car-talk-5/gone-very-far-dark-side-cobra-kit-900740/
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-01-2014 at 11:52 AM.
04-01-2014, 12:35 PM
#90
04-01-2014, 01:19 PM
#91
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Wonder how he made out on the insurance claim? 
Also wonder how many times guys had to go back to get Acura to honor the TSB on the 6MT 3rd gear problem, grinding going in & popping out of 3rd gear.
Took me 3 shots before they could "duplicate" the problem & replace the gear set.
Every manufacturer has service issues but it was nice so see the M6 guy had the money to trash his car to get his point across.
Also wonder how many times guys had to go back to get Acura to honor the TSB on the 6MT 3rd gear problem, grinding going in & popping out of 3rd gear.
Took me 3 shots before they could "duplicate" the problem & replace the gear set.
Every manufacturer has service issues but it was nice so see the M6 guy had the money to trash his car to get his point across.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-01-2014 at 01:27 PM.
04-01-2014, 01:31 PM
#92
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Most likely not, especially for $57K. The car has no history behind it & would still just be a modification of the Accord platform. There are too many performance platforms & engines available like MB, BMW, Lexus & Infinity with clear track records going back over time for under $60K. Besides the TLX product line is too thin with only a 4 door sedan & I don’t think they have a spare billion laying around to develop coups & convertibles. Expect they drained the development kitty with the NSX
We just beat the platform thing to death so I will not go back over that ground other than to say I enjoy RWD more than FWD & my trucks have all the AWD I need or want.
For the money right now you can get a basic 335i @ $45,325 including a 6MT & dynamic handling package; put in a $500 JB4 & drive away with 400whp+ or 460hp at the crank. That leaves 11K to play with for other stuff compared to the $57K TLX. I think Acura would have to come in at no more than $50K or $2/3K more than their current top performer to sell the car.
Personally I generally get my cars well optioned rather than a basic model. For what’s it worth my 2011 335is was a limited production, US only for 2 years, parts bin special with a different 3.0 liter motor than the standard 335i. BMW sold 10,000 cars 5 each coupe & convertible.
The premium over a well optioned 335i coupe or convertible was about $2500. A lot of the parts came off the M-performance parts list & the IS package was cheaper than going Ala Carte with a 335i. Same is true for the 135is.
The 2011 335is is being replace by the 2014 435M-Sport with the MPPK option is a similar package, but not limited production with a better handling system but a little less power than the 335is.
BTW If anyone is interested they just moved the Cobra build thread to Car Talk
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=900740
We just beat the platform thing to death so I will not go back over that ground other than to say I enjoy RWD more than FWD & my trucks have all the AWD I need or want.
For the money right now you can get a basic 335i @ $45,325 including a 6MT & dynamic handling package; put in a $500 JB4 & drive away with 400whp+ or 460hp at the crank. That leaves 11K to play with for other stuff compared to the $57K TLX. I think Acura would have to come in at no more than $50K or $2/3K more than their current top performer to sell the car.
Personally I generally get my cars well optioned rather than a basic model. For what’s it worth my 2011 335is was a limited production, US only for 2 years, parts bin special with a different 3.0 liter motor than the standard 335i. BMW sold 10,000 cars 5 each coupe & convertible.
The premium over a well optioned 335i coupe or convertible was about $2500. A lot of the parts came off the M-performance parts list & the IS package was cheaper than going Ala Carte with a 335i. Same is true for the 135is.
The 2011 335is is being replace by the 2014 435M-Sport with the MPPK option is a similar package, but not limited production with a better handling system but a little less power than the 335is.
BTW If anyone is interested they just moved the Cobra build thread to Car Talk
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=900740
The 3G TL-S is just as capable, if not faster, than the G and IS350 back then, despite having less power.
Audi is doing quite well with its FWD platforms + quattro.
Whether the TLX line is thin or Honda has the development money is irrelevant. The OP here is stating a "what if" situation here.
My understanding of OP's question is that, if Acura comes out with a 400+hp twin turbo TLX SH-AWD Advance for $57k, would you be interested. This assumes that the car is fully optioned, not a basic car. This assumes that Honda has the capability and money to develop such car. This also assumes that the engine can easily be tuned/modded to reach higher power (ie 500+hp). This assumes there will be body work done to the car (i.e. wider body, lip kit, wheels), suspension tuning, etc.
Put it this way, if Acura makes a high performance version of the TLX that is faster than AMG C63, M3, IS F, S4 for $57k fully optioned. Would you consider it? Keep in mind the likes of C63, M3, ISF all start well above $60k.
04-01-2014, 01:36 PM
#93
BTW If anyone is interested they just moved the Cobra build thread to Car Talk
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=900740
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cp3117 (04-04-2014)
04-01-2014, 01:37 PM
#94
04-01-2014, 01:44 PM
#95
Sorry, my bad for the of topic Bayerische Motoren Werke Joke ;-)
Let’s get back on Topic – Thank you all
Let’s get back on Topic – Thank you all
04-01-2014, 02:42 PM
#96
This is indeed the objective
"The OP here is stating a "what if" situation here.
My understanding of OP's question is that, if Acura comes out with a 400+hp twin turbo TLX SH-AWD Advance for $57k, would you be interested. This assumes that the car is fully optioned, not a basic car."
"The OP here is stating a "what if" situation here.
My understanding of OP's question is that, if Acura comes out with a 400+hp twin turbo TLX SH-AWD Advance for $57k, would you be interested. This assumes that the car is fully optioned, not a basic car."
04-01-2014, 05:25 PM
#97
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Sorry but I don't do lets pretend or if I did I would be proposing a Stingray Z-51 for $30K. Neither thing is in the current realm of possibility. If you want some skinny on where Acura is now check out the new Car & Driver column by Aaron Robinson titled “25 years after the Japanese onslaught, Germany is winning”
The Acura section is not that big, most of the article is about Lexus & Infinity, Starts with:
Acura is its own worst enemy. Its star car the TL once sold up & down dealers row. Then Acura's designers discovered psychotropic drugs, causing them to confuse modern vogue with gangster gruesome.
Then it really goes downhill.
IMHO Acura needs a solid bread & butter car not an M4 wanna be. If you can't sell the base product at rates over 35K units a year when the higher priced spread is selling over 100K units there is no way you are going to jump up $20K & make sales.
The Acura section is not that big, most of the article is about Lexus & Infinity, Starts with:
Acura is its own worst enemy. Its star car the TL once sold up & down dealers row. Then Acura's designers discovered psychotropic drugs, causing them to confuse modern vogue with gangster gruesome.
Then it really goes downhill.
IMHO Acura needs a solid bread & butter car not an M4 wanna be. If you can't sell the base product at rates over 35K units a year when the higher priced spread is selling over 100K units there is no way you are going to jump up $20K & make sales.
04-01-2014, 05:57 PM
#98
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Well, that's the whole purpose of this thread......it's about what if's here....there are other threads that discuss other aspects of the TLX.
With that said, I don't see how this "TLX twin-turbo" is only a dream.
-J35 twin turbo is not totally out of this world. Getting an extra 100hp from a twin-turbo system is not rocket science.
-SH-AWD. It's available already
-Appearance package. Easy to make
-Sporty suspension tuning. Honda is quite good at this
-$57k. That's not exactly small change. But it keeps the price below other potential competitors
-Does this high-performance TLX have to sell well? No. It's not like we see IS F, C63 AMG, M3 at every intersection anyway. It's about boasting the brand image.
04-01-2014, 06:06 PM
#99
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So the answer is no. A TL with 400hp is of no interest to me. I can get 420hp for $33K & as I said before more HP is not a compelling reason to spend $57K on a what is a $35/40K car based on an economy car platform.
As far as the other comments about Infinity & Lexus doing it. The Q50 only sold 3795 units & the entire Lexus IS line only sold 4893 or a combined total of 8688. The 3 series sold 10,120 so no I don't think its doing much for Lexus or infinity which have combined sales about 3/4 times greater than the TL.
As far as the other comments about Infinity & Lexus doing it. The Q50 only sold 3795 units & the entire Lexus IS line only sold 4893 or a combined total of 8688. The 3 series sold 10,120 so no I don't think its doing much for Lexus or infinity which have combined sales about 3/4 times greater than the TL.
04-01-2014, 07:10 PM
#100
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Well, that's the whole purpose of this thread......it's about what if's here....there are other threads that discuss other aspects of the TLX.
With that said, I don't see how this "TLX twin-turbo" is only a dream.
-J35 twin turbo is not totally out of this world. Getting an extra 100hp from a twin-turbo system is not rocket science.
-SH-AWD. It's available already
-Appearance package. Easy to make
-Sporty suspension tuning. Honda is quite good at this
-$57k. That's not exactly small change. But it keeps the price below other potential competitors
-Does this high-performance TLX have to sell well? No. It's not like we see IS F, C63 AMG, M3 at every intersection anyway. It's about boasting the brand image.
With that said, I don't see how this "TLX twin-turbo" is only a dream.
-J35 twin turbo is not totally out of this world. Getting an extra 100hp from a twin-turbo system is not rocket science.
-SH-AWD. It's available already
-Appearance package. Easy to make
-Sporty suspension tuning. Honda is quite good at this
-$57k. That's not exactly small change. But it keeps the price below other potential competitors
-Does this high-performance TLX have to sell well? No. It's not like we see IS F, C63 AMG, M3 at every intersection anyway. It's about boasting the brand image.
When you talk about easy look up how much money Honda spent to add SH-AWD to the TL remembering they already had the basic system in the MDX. In this case they do not even have the motor. Also what is the torque limit of the current transmission & SH-AWD system? The TL engines are low torque units so I would think you would need a new drive train to hold 400ftlbs
The fact that you think adding this stuff is easy suggests you need to do more research on what it costs to develop & certify a new model.
The current M3 model run was 40K units @ about $73K each. The lower the volume the higher the price needs to be to cover development.
Sorry but I don't believe anyone outside of this board is just hungering for a 400hp $57K TL.
As for boosting the brand image how do you boost "smart luxury" with this plan. Beside I expect the NSX is all the image boost Honda is prepared to support.
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04-01-2014, 07:23 PM
#101
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04-01-2014, 07:30 PM
#102
I just wonder who exactly it would be welcomed by, actually purchased. The average $36/37K TL buyer stepping up $20K? One of the people here who comment over & over, “I would not spend that for any car”? Or the MB, Audi & BMW are two expensive when the average price of the biggest dollar spread over the TL is only $7K more not $20K.
Even the top end 4G purchasers would have to step up over $10K. I can appreciate the dream but can’t see the reality of a car company investing hundreds of millions of dollars in it.
If they want to sell more cars they need to go back to what they did well in the past, a good car at a good price undercutting the premiums, rather then try to step up into the never never land of the first tiers breadbasket. Last time they did that even with sub 300BHP cars they were knocking out 50-60K units per year & leading the entry level segment.
BTW the Acura SUV selling at $50K is not relevant since it’s a different market with different dynamics than the sedans. My Ford had a MSRP in the mid $50’s & to replace it today would MSRP at $62K (its not the most expensive Ford SUV model) outside of their pickup trucks they have no everyday $50K+ people carriers.
When you start throwing around numbers like $57K for a car try taking a look at the "what do you do for a living" thread & see how much of a base is there even among the brands hardcore fans many who have bought the current top model to support that kind of additional $10/12K expense.
Then think about the other 30,000 or so people who bought TL's in the average price range last year
Even the top end 4G purchasers would have to step up over $10K. I can appreciate the dream but can’t see the reality of a car company investing hundreds of millions of dollars in it.
If they want to sell more cars they need to go back to what they did well in the past, a good car at a good price undercutting the premiums, rather then try to step up into the never never land of the first tiers breadbasket. Last time they did that even with sub 300BHP cars they were knocking out 50-60K units per year & leading the entry level segment.
BTW the Acura SUV selling at $50K is not relevant since it’s a different market with different dynamics than the sedans. My Ford had a MSRP in the mid $50’s & to replace it today would MSRP at $62K (its not the most expensive Ford SUV model) outside of their pickup trucks they have no everyday $50K+ people carriers.
When you start throwing around numbers like $57K for a car try taking a look at the "what do you do for a living" thread & see how much of a base is there even among the brands hardcore fans many who have bought the current top model to support that kind of additional $10/12K expense.
Then think about the other 30,000 or so people who bought TL's in the average price range last year
Sure there are lots of TL customers who can't spend that but then there are some who can but maybe decided against it, maybe their car budget was not maxed out on each purchase, maybe they thought the current TL was a good buy and more practical, maybe they make more money now, maybe they lease this and bought before, maybe others outside Acura will be interested, on and on but you get the point. If they are going to turn around sales, they are going to have be attracting more than TL or Honda buyers anyway.
Again this is not going to be a car for the mass buying population or even the average TL customer anyway, that's not the point so no sense in that part of the discussion. The average C class and 3 series driver don't spend as much yet they still make an M or AMG, and we don't even need to get that high either because the 335 and C class can get up to $60 or just under. Average 3 and C buyer don't get those yet they still make and offer those.
The current TL has had it's issues no doubt but it's still a decent machine for what it is, where it's priced and what it's based on, FWD namely, and from an enthusiasts point of view no less, all things considered, even 6 years later. For example the 6MT still gets praises today, highly underrated, some of that is Acura's fault. All cars have their quirks but this car does a good job of performing and catering to enthusiast in a more practical luxury mid size sedan form. The same can be said for the TLS that came before it. No world beaters but they were not designed to be.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...-tl-sh-awd-6mt
Now take that to build off of, add the new transmissions, lose some weight, what should be a slimmer exterior and more accepted styling, potential SH enhancements, add the hypothetical version we are talking about and what exactly about it is not a compelling enough package to those in that market?
At 350 hp it should be more than fine to compete with the 335 and S4, at 400hp it could excel and it wouldn't be a rinky dink compact (no offense to anybody just my opinion), it will have size and space inside to actually put people in, at least more comfortably. Look not saying if they made it, all people in that upper entry category have to go and buy or even needs what it could be or will necessarily like it but none of that should detract from the hypothetical car and it's potential.
No average buyer of any of the "typical" luxury purchasers, as you called them, usually steps up the $20k or rarely exceed mid $40k's either but that doesn't stop anybody else from making those cars or selling the few they do. The enthusiasts appreciate it regardless of what it's strengths and weakness might be, no matter the brand who still invests the time and money to make it. Besides the base for it will already be in place in the next gen, so it's not as though they have to start ground up and will rely on mass sales. It's not much different than bringing out a type S version which they have some history in doing and is not unlikely statistically speaking, not saying that it will or won't however.
And I don't disagree that the sedan and SUV market vary, except that I think it goes against the suggestion that the typical luxury brand purchaser doesn't look at the Acura, in this case that's probably untrue. That doesn't mean it's the same with the sedans or the same degree but I still think it's more than the typical luxury buyer wants to admit since the average sales price differences only make up a few thousand more where most brands make up their higher sales numbers, in the case of Lexus I don't even think there is a real or significant difference in average sales price.
BMW and MB get more sales in their entry but not enough to warrant the idea that they won't look at an SH at around the same price which you mentioned was mid $40k's and they do much better with the 5 and E where Acura just can't seem to break into, except for the first year or two of the last RL, of recent years, which probably has a lot to do with their car for there, being a bit different, than it does the brand.
Never been in the what you do for living thread so I don't really know what that has to do with it or what you're trying to say in that regard but again this is not a version for most of the model buyers, nor is a well equipped 435M sport to the 3 series, for example. So none of that really matters with this hypothetical version.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-01-2014 at 07:36 PM.
04-02-2014, 10:08 AM
#103
A J Motor TLX with the 9 speed automatic won't cost anywhere near that, and it will be a very nice performing vehicle if they use the same 310 HP tuning that they use for the RLX. In doing the things that you would normally do with a car, the J35 Earth Dreams motor provides startling performance.
The $57,000 thing started with someone speculating whether they would want a road going car that they would call a TLX GT.
When you start doing things like that, it's hard to estimate the cost but I can very well imagine that $57,000 would not be out of the question and they would not be looking to appeal to the people who had bought the 3G TL in any form.
It is a niche market. They only sold about 3,000 total 2006-2007 Accord 6-6 Sedans, but the people who bought them love them to death. Not that many people bought the ITR in the USA, all the way through the 1997-2001 model years, but the people who got them loved them to death.
Those are the people who'd tend to buy a road going TLX GT. There aren't many of them, but they'd love Honda and Acura all the more that such a vehicle was produced for them.
You know, now that I think about it, I am not sure what transmission they would possess to use with a road going TLX GT. I cannot imagine being able to produce the NSX DCT transmission in quantities high enough to be able to use them in the TLX line...but maybe they've been planning this in secret and we've just not heard about it.
The $57,000 thing started with someone speculating whether they would want a road going car that they would call a TLX GT.
When you start doing things like that, it's hard to estimate the cost but I can very well imagine that $57,000 would not be out of the question and they would not be looking to appeal to the people who had bought the 3G TL in any form.
It is a niche market. They only sold about 3,000 total 2006-2007 Accord 6-6 Sedans, but the people who bought them love them to death. Not that many people bought the ITR in the USA, all the way through the 1997-2001 model years, but the people who got them loved them to death.
Those are the people who'd tend to buy a road going TLX GT. There aren't many of them, but they'd love Honda and Acura all the more that such a vehicle was produced for them.
You know, now that I think about it, I am not sure what transmission they would possess to use with a road going TLX GT. I cannot imagine being able to produce the NSX DCT transmission in quantities high enough to be able to use them in the TLX line...but maybe they've been planning this in secret and we've just not heard about it.
Last edited by mylove4cars; 04-02-2014 at 10:14 AM.
04-02-2014, 11:57 AM
#104
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You don't just slap turbos onto a N/A engine design & expect it to live with enough boost to make a difference. The old 3G supercharged TL's were running about 3psi. My turbos run 18psi to generate 410whp so you need a whole new engine design or at least internals.
When you talk about easy look up how much money Honda spent to add SH-AWD to the TL remembering they already had the basic system in the MDX. In this case they do not even have the motor. Also what is the torque limit of the current transmission & SH-AWD system? The TL engines are low torque units so I would think you would need a new drive train to hold 400ftlbs
The fact that you think adding this stuff is easy suggests you need to do more research on what it costs to develop & certify a new model.
The current M3 model run was 40K units @ about $73K each. The lower the volume the higher the price needs to be to cover development.
Sorry but I don't believe anyone outside of this board is just hungering for a 400hp $57K TL.
As for boosting the brand image how do you boost "smart luxury" with this plan. Beside I expect the NSX is all the image boost Honda is prepared to support.
When you talk about easy look up how much money Honda spent to add SH-AWD to the TL remembering they already had the basic system in the MDX. In this case they do not even have the motor. Also what is the torque limit of the current transmission & SH-AWD system? The TL engines are low torque units so I would think you would need a new drive train to hold 400ftlbs
The fact that you think adding this stuff is easy suggests you need to do more research on what it costs to develop & certify a new model.
The current M3 model run was 40K units @ about $73K each. The lower the volume the higher the price needs to be to cover development.
Sorry but I don't believe anyone outside of this board is just hungering for a 400hp $57K TL.
As for boosting the brand image how do you boost "smart luxury" with this plan. Beside I expect the NSX is all the image boost Honda is prepared to support.
Please note that I said "easy" for the appearance package ONLY.
Of course, Honda would need to work on beefing up its other systems such as tranny and SH-AWD for each application. That's a given. For the new TLX though, it's using the 9-speed transmission from ZF. ZF has a long list of transmissions with different torque ratings.
Again, I never said add these things would be easy. I only said appearance package would be easy.
Just because the brand is focusing on smart luxury, doesn't mean the brand can't have a high performance sedan. That term is so broad that it can be interpreted in many ways. For instance, it's smart luxury because you can get a 400hp fully loaded high performance sedan for $57k.
04-02-2014, 12:42 PM
#105
Burning Brakes
We really all dreaming. The RDX turbo was the only test subject to Honda's Forced Induction engine. IF they do bring it out, it won't be twin turbo rather it be single turbo. If Honda wanted to bring out their best engine and branded it as the TLX, people can keep dreaming. The Acura TL need is a V6 DOHC I-VTEC engine instead of going turbo route.
Remember the NSX era? Built a big engine V6 and developed 1.6L, 1.8L, 2.0L, and the 2.2L vtec in that era.
Should do the same with this TLX and bring out a fresh new engines for the future. We all know that the 2.4L will be on the list for awhile as long as the car is being this heavy to haul.
Remember the NSX era? Built a big engine V6 and developed 1.6L, 1.8L, 2.0L, and the 2.2L vtec in that era.
Should do the same with this TLX and bring out a fresh new engines for the future. We all know that the 2.4L will be on the list for awhile as long as the car is being this heavy to haul.
Last edited by bouncer07; 04-02-2014 at 12:55 PM.
04-02-2014, 04:35 PM
#106
Racer
Most likely not, especially for $57K. The car has no history behind it & would still just be a modification of the Accord platform. There are too many performance platforms & engines available like MB, BMW, Lexus & Infinity with clear track records going back over time for under $60K. Besides the TLX product line is too thin with only a 4 door sedan & I don’t think they have a spare billion laying around to develop coups & convertibles. Expect they drained the development kitty with the NSX
We just beat the platform thing to death so I will not go back over that ground other than to say I enjoy RWD more than FWD & my trucks have all the AWD I need or want.
For the money right now you can get a basic 335i @ $45,325 including a 6MT & dynamic handling package; put in a $500 JB4 & drive away with 400whp+ or 460hp at the crank. That leaves 11K to play with for other stuff compared to the $57K TLX. I think Acura would have to come in at no more than $50K or $2/3K more than their current top performer to sell the car.
Personally I generally get my cars well optioned rather than a basic model. For what’s it worth my 2011 335is was a limited production, US only for 2 years, parts bin special with a different 3.0 liter motor than the standard 335i. BMW sold 10,000 cars 5 each coupe & convertible.
The premium over a well optioned 335i coupe or convertible was about $2500. A lot of the parts came off the M-performance parts list & the IS package was cheaper than going Ala Carte with a 335i. Same is true for the 135is.
The 2011 335is is being replace by the 2014 435M-Sport with the MPPK option is a similar package, but not limited production with a better handling system but a little less power than the 335is.
BTW If anyone is interested they just moved the Cobra build thread to Car Talk
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=900740
We just beat the platform thing to death so I will not go back over that ground other than to say I enjoy RWD more than FWD & my trucks have all the AWD I need or want.
For the money right now you can get a basic 335i @ $45,325 including a 6MT & dynamic handling package; put in a $500 JB4 & drive away with 400whp+ or 460hp at the crank. That leaves 11K to play with for other stuff compared to the $57K TLX. I think Acura would have to come in at no more than $50K or $2/3K more than their current top performer to sell the car.
Personally I generally get my cars well optioned rather than a basic model. For what’s it worth my 2011 335is was a limited production, US only for 2 years, parts bin special with a different 3.0 liter motor than the standard 335i. BMW sold 10,000 cars 5 each coupe & convertible.
The premium over a well optioned 335i coupe or convertible was about $2500. A lot of the parts came off the M-performance parts list & the IS package was cheaper than going Ala Carte with a 335i. Same is true for the 135is.
The 2011 335is is being replace by the 2014 435M-Sport with the MPPK option is a similar package, but not limited production with a better handling system but a little less power than the 335is.
BTW If anyone is interested they just moved the Cobra build thread to Car Talk
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=900740
04-02-2014, 05:07 PM
#107
Thanks, it was a shakedown for a longer project I worked on later year. I noticed he was overdriving the mic and made some changes for the next short film. I suppose these days the driving footage would be shot using a GoPro or something, but back then I was hanging a (borrowed) camera over the side of the car on a 6" suction cup mount. 
04-02-2014, 06:57 PM
#108
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Its good to see there are some risk takers left
04-02-2014, 07:13 PM
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What a few people did not notice is the 400hp 4 door has already been built by two companies along with a 3rd car while not 400hp is quick & big with 365hp. Big seems to be very important to some of you & the Eco-Boost SHO makes the RLX look like a little guy. The 400+ HP Chevy SS & Dodge SRT are also good sized cars & all sell for under $50K optioned up.
Its also true like they RLX the sell in the sub 500 units a month range. With the NSX as a halo car I still don’t see the compelling reason for a 400hp TLX selling maybe 75-80 units a month outside of a few people here thinking its cool.
Its also true like they RLX the sell in the sub 500 units a month range. With the NSX as a halo car I still don’t see the compelling reason for a 400hp TLX selling maybe 75-80 units a month outside of a few people here thinking its cool.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-02-2014 at 07:16 PM.
04-02-2014, 07:29 PM
#110
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If they want an all stand up & salute Lord Acura they should make a members only site with password access then they would never have to read a dissenting opinion.
BTW Locking yourself into just two brands will really narrow your over all perspective on cars. Think over my lifetime there are very few brands sold in the US or UK that I have not had a sample of.
04-02-2014, 07:33 PM
#111
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Never been in the what you do for living thread so I don't really know what that has to do with it or what you're trying to say in that regard but again this is not a version for most of the model buyers, nor is a well equipped 435M sport to the 3 series, for example. So none of that really matters with this hypothetical version.
oops its 24 years 1990.
04-03-2014, 07:44 AM
#112
Perhaps I missed someone's nuance earlier in the thread...but for those saying you don't just slap on a turbo, or how would SH-AWD work...there's this:
While I'm not a mechanic and wasn't in the room, who knows if HPD "slapped" it on or not.
All joking aside, I think it is within reason to ponder if Acura would use that development work for a tuned down street version of the TLX V6.
I think it is also reasonable to ponder if they took everything they have learned working with turbo development on smaller engines, and applied it to an updated version of the original RDX 2.3L turbo for use in the base TLX 2.4L. I know some of you feel all this talk is far fetched. But the industry has moved in the direction of forced induction due to government regulation.
In my mind, I'm trying to come up with their justification for calling the TLX a "Red Carpet Athlete"...and even what that phrase could mean (if anything).
Developed from the production 2015 Acura TLX by HPD, the racing arm of American Honda Motor Co., Inc., the Acura TLX GT Race Car will feature HPD chassis and aerodynamic performance parts approved for Pirelli World Challenge competition, and will be powered by a direct-injected, twin-turbocharged V6 engine, developed by HPD from the normally aspirated, production TLX luxury sport sedan. It will utilize all-wheel drive, as found in Acura's Super-Handling All Wheel Drive™ (SH-AWD™).
All joking aside, I think it is within reason to ponder if Acura would use that development work for a tuned down street version of the TLX V6.
I think it is also reasonable to ponder if they took everything they have learned working with turbo development on smaller engines, and applied it to an updated version of the original RDX 2.3L turbo for use in the base TLX 2.4L. I know some of you feel all this talk is far fetched. But the industry has moved in the direction of forced induction due to government regulation.
In my mind, I'm trying to come up with their justification for calling the TLX a "Red Carpet Athlete"...and even what that phrase could mean (if anything).
04-03-2014, 10:37 AM
#113
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You can lease a "production based" ALMS racing engine from BMW or Ford for about $300,000 a season. Remember these are already 400+HP engines before they leave the factory in a stock car
04-03-2014, 12:13 PM
#114
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What a few people did not notice is the 400hp 4 door has already been built by two companies along with a 3rd car while not 400hp is quick & big with 365hp. Big seems to be very important to some of you & the Eco-Boost SHO makes the RLX look like a little guy. The 400+ HP Chevy SS & Dodge SRT are also good sized cars & all sell for under $50K optioned up.
Its also true like they RLX the sell in the sub 500 units a month range. With the NSX as a halo car I still don’t see the compelling reason for a 400hp TLX selling maybe 75-80 units a month outside of a few people here thinking its cool.
Its also true like they RLX the sell in the sub 500 units a month range. With the NSX as a halo car I still don’t see the compelling reason for a 400hp TLX selling maybe 75-80 units a month outside of a few people here thinking its cool.
That's sort of the idea behind this TLX twin turbo. There are some differences though. With the TLX, you get a more premium brand (Acura is no BMW, Audi, MB, but still better than Dodge, Chevy, etc), you get even more features and arguably better materials, you get a slightly smaller and lighter car, you get a fancy AWD system.
I personally just don't think Acura should just be sitting back. There are many car enthusiasts out there who like the M3, C63, S4, etc. You are probably correct that a $57k TLX might not attract many buyers, but having something like that sitting at the showroom might help draw people into the dealership, and purchase another vehicle. This might not work right away. But with brand image, it always takes time to build it. Right now, people don't see Acura as a high performance brand as it's sorely lacking any performance models.
Of course, as these engines are not being mass produced. The key is to develop an engine that can be shared with other models. For this J35TT engine, it can be used in the MDX and RLX, or even the RDX. Look at Audi, it's putting its 3.0T in the SQ5, S4, S5, A6, etc.
04-03-2014, 01:13 PM
#115
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Mine is black & still being built so this pic will have to do.
You are probably correct that a $57k TLX might not attract many buyers, but having something like that sitting at the showroom might help draw people into the dealership, and purchase another vehicle. This might not work right away. But with brand image, it always takes time to build it. Right now, people don't see Acura as a high performance brand as it's sorely lacking any performance models.
Reason I brought up the BMW & Ford ALMS now "Tudor" series is people here throw numbers, always way to low, around very casually to justify things. Any development costs a lot of money & the ROI is always the first hurdle you need to clear.
Fun thread. I am drilling & spraying a lot of panels today. Have time to measure & punch some holes, score the surface, prime, then lay on the truck bed liner while checking the thread in between for new posts.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-03-2014 at 01:19 PM.
04-03-2014, 03:09 PM
#116
^^ Bear....I am envious!
04-03-2014, 04:21 PM
#117
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04-03-2014, 04:45 PM
#118
Bear, with your take on this hypothetical TLX, think it would have been better left at, you like RWD, and something smaller, don't need AWD. However, not sure the knock on the Honda/Acura platform is actually a knock. One would buy the car for performance and historically, the platform has not had much issue competing with other platforms even dedicated RWD in compact cars that were smaller, lighter, had balanced weight distributions and generally designed with more sport purpose than the TL anyway.
Not to mention they had a bit more power, and they cost more, yet TL still right there as far as platform was concerned. A little under powered in either case, could have used more sport tune and feel in comparison but wasn't exactly the aim or purpose, trying to be a different kind of car and is/was in the first place but neither really a result of a platform limitation. The drivetrain has received criticism as it related to others but results were solid in comparison nonetheless.
If only the application had been more suitable for stricter performance or a more performance car in general, such as in ways just described, we likely would have been looking at one of the better overall performers hands down. As mentioned, the foundation is there, Acura's fault for not making it happen. I guess that's also one reason for his thread and even the frustration towards the brand.
Now would there be limitations in the drivetrain for the way SH is currently programmed, I would say maybe but that's not hard to fix, it's appears as though it's mostly software related. It depends on how far one wants to go but for production purposes, but I think 350 torque and 350-400 hp is not nearly out of the question on the platform. People have been doing it aftermarket for years on FWD versions no less. Now going above and beyond that amount, we really just don't know. The big hurdle for Acura would be the production ready engine and improving sales enough initially to make it happen at MMC.
I don't get the parts about pointing out other vehicles, and that you can get your car well optioned but others can't or shouldn't? Why not the take your own advice and get a $45k 335i too? A cheaper Mustang, Camaro, you could save a lot for mods in a Genesis coupe, or a 370Z. Not sure why a similar priced or cheaper alternative only exist for the TL or TL consumers, you and almost everybody else regardless of the car also have those options but for much of the same reasons Iforyou pointed out, most like the premium aspects and features, among other things, it's not about not noticing other makes.
I'm not sure what's being said there. Luxury shoppers in generally can't consider those things as related to Acura? Or Acura customers or owners should not be able to but with other brands you can? This TLX would be well optioned as well and FWIW I would imagine you could get it for around $52k, assuming it really was stickered $57k. The OP did mention it as a twin turbo TL, one could mod that just as well. Not to get too hung up over either points.
Again, why not get that 420 hp for $33k, why the BMW coupes? Why not apply the same logic to the BMW, is it because they sell 100K units? The 3/4 series is really the same priced kind of car based on average sales and really stop and look at how exotic and high priced luxury cars can get, now imagine you're standing near the very top of that and looking down, is the 3/4 series really any better than a poor mans luxury car, and how far away is the TL and even Accord for that matter?
Not very, the TL is already around there just doesn't reach as high and Accord is just below. We're not talking about anything very special in the grand scheme of cars, they're nice and I won't take that away from myself or anybody else but let's not get carried away. Just using a different perspective, which is not a bad idea. From the bottom of the spectrum either may appear to be gold, dead smack in the middle of both car's encompassing market you may find the BMW slightly ahead for a few reasons but from the top down and wide out view of where they sit on bigger scale, they are around the middle and not far apart at all.
Not to mention they had a bit more power, and they cost more, yet TL still right there as far as platform was concerned. A little under powered in either case, could have used more sport tune and feel in comparison but wasn't exactly the aim or purpose, trying to be a different kind of car and is/was in the first place but neither really a result of a platform limitation. The drivetrain has received criticism as it related to others but results were solid in comparison nonetheless.
If only the application had been more suitable for stricter performance or a more performance car in general, such as in ways just described, we likely would have been looking at one of the better overall performers hands down. As mentioned, the foundation is there, Acura's fault for not making it happen. I guess that's also one reason for his thread and even the frustration towards the brand.
Now would there be limitations in the drivetrain for the way SH is currently programmed, I would say maybe but that's not hard to fix, it's appears as though it's mostly software related. It depends on how far one wants to go but for production purposes, but I think 350 torque and 350-400 hp is not nearly out of the question on the platform. People have been doing it aftermarket for years on FWD versions no less. Now going above and beyond that amount, we really just don't know. The big hurdle for Acura would be the production ready engine and improving sales enough initially to make it happen at MMC.
I don't get the parts about pointing out other vehicles, and that you can get your car well optioned but others can't or shouldn't? Why not the take your own advice and get a $45k 335i too? A cheaper Mustang, Camaro, you could save a lot for mods in a Genesis coupe, or a 370Z. Not sure why a similar priced or cheaper alternative only exist for the TL or TL consumers, you and almost everybody else regardless of the car also have those options but for much of the same reasons Iforyou pointed out, most like the premium aspects and features, among other things, it's not about not noticing other makes.
I'm not sure what's being said there. Luxury shoppers in generally can't consider those things as related to Acura? Or Acura customers or owners should not be able to but with other brands you can? This TLX would be well optioned as well and FWIW I would imagine you could get it for around $52k, assuming it really was stickered $57k. The OP did mention it as a twin turbo TL, one could mod that just as well. Not to get too hung up over either points.
Again, why not get that 420 hp for $33k, why the BMW coupes? Why not apply the same logic to the BMW, is it because they sell 100K units? The 3/4 series is really the same priced kind of car based on average sales and really stop and look at how exotic and high priced luxury cars can get, now imagine you're standing near the very top of that and looking down, is the 3/4 series really any better than a poor mans luxury car, and how far away is the TL and even Accord for that matter?
Not very, the TL is already around there just doesn't reach as high and Accord is just below. We're not talking about anything very special in the grand scheme of cars, they're nice and I won't take that away from myself or anybody else but let's not get carried away. Just using a different perspective, which is not a bad idea. From the bottom of the spectrum either may appear to be gold, dead smack in the middle of both car's encompassing market you may find the BMW slightly ahead for a few reasons but from the top down and wide out view of where they sit on bigger scale, they are around the middle and not far apart at all.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-03-2014 at 04:50 PM.
04-03-2014, 04:46 PM
#119
As far as size, I have no problem with anyone liking bigger or smaller cars, perfectly legal just think there are limits or lines one can draw in the name of balance. Large sedans and trucks are not the best handlers, while coupes and compacts are limited in space. Some people don't like balance and that is fine, we're talking more subjective criteria then. Based on less subjective criteria and looking more at a singular vehicle from a engineering, design and purpose perspective, mid sized is a great balance at least as it relates to a context of high performance vehicle that is also well rounded and practical enough for daily driving. The latter at least something most on auto based internet forums can appreciate.
So if you abandon your own needs and preferences, throw them out the window, you look at all vehicles across all the spectrum or spectrums and now you are trying to blend daily driver, with high performance, all weather versatility, comfort, gas mileage as best you can in the context, price, storage space, passenger space and comfort, luxury and amenities, etc, I'm confident you arrive at mid size luxury AWD.
It is the center of the center, it strikes the most balance of all cars IMO and if others disagree that's fine but I would ask what is the most balanced type of vehicle instead? Based on those findings, if the high performance luxury mid can carry extra passengers and or has more room, AWD, while being just or nearly as capable, regardless or more trivial subjective characteristics and just so happens to have these pluses, etc, where is the downside as it relates to a more objective view as a whole of a single extremely well balanced vehicle?
Now people may not need any of that, want and prefer these things and may not need balance or get that in other ways but now that deviates from cars and car engineering, design and purpose, in general and in total, and instead goes more to the individual. I might be totally off my rocker but would hope some can see what I'm getting at. Then there are a lot who probably don't get past the "it's pretty" or "I like the color" stuff so outside of really technical and widespread basis we don't see that so it usually includes different types of considerations.
I get the sense that these are a few sticking points for you, as it relates to the rest of the discussion. They are, 100k sales for the 3/4 and TL or TLX shares it's platform with an Accord. Think you will have better luck here with the I like something smaller and RWD, once again. I get that's it's not RWD which is very popular in the luxury segments but outside of that, many here don't see the basis of the inferiority of the so called Accord based platform especially based on the above examples, need something more there to go off of.
With regards to the sales number, is there a rule that one can only buy a car that sells more than 7k units a month or something? Should one disregard subjective preference or even more objective balance relating to other cars and all the other qualities and things people look at or value and consider in cars and simply buy the car that everyone else does and just for that or those reason?
There really would be no other cars or so little variety and that would suck, if it had to be only RWD, a coupe and sold exceptionally well. So really these things should have little to nothing to do with anything, it starts and ends with the finished products and how they compare to each other and how that relates to the buyer and what they look at or look for. Something else that isn't liked or not well suited is not magically or automatically inferior or less capable than it is because of those reasons.
For example, I don't particularly care for the 3, think it can get expensive for how I like my cars and a bit relative to others in other classes, and that it is small for me. All subjective qualities. However it's a great car and a market leader for those looking for that kind of car. And that's about it, I don't need to get into the stuff that may or may not actually have any basis in the car or about the brand like the snob imagery or appeal, the lack of LSD, use of struts, and single piston brakes, that it's 33% of what makes BMW and all over the world and it's not particularly impressive as a luxury car outside of entry level (not that the TL is) for such an esteemed luxury brand, etc. Just like others do about the so called "Accord" platform and Acura/Honda relation and/or image because, just the same, I don't think it has any basis and secondly, even if it did, not sure where any of that actually fits in or relates to the finished products themselves. Most here don't shout these things from the mountain, except in these discussion because, for one thing, I know that I don't care enough one way or another and maybe as a general auto enthusiast, these things are probably beneath that.
So if you abandon your own needs and preferences, throw them out the window, you look at all vehicles across all the spectrum or spectrums and now you are trying to blend daily driver, with high performance, all weather versatility, comfort, gas mileage as best you can in the context, price, storage space, passenger space and comfort, luxury and amenities, etc, I'm confident you arrive at mid size luxury AWD.
It is the center of the center, it strikes the most balance of all cars IMO and if others disagree that's fine but I would ask what is the most balanced type of vehicle instead? Based on those findings, if the high performance luxury mid can carry extra passengers and or has more room, AWD, while being just or nearly as capable, regardless or more trivial subjective characteristics and just so happens to have these pluses, etc, where is the downside as it relates to a more objective view as a whole of a single extremely well balanced vehicle?
Now people may not need any of that, want and prefer these things and may not need balance or get that in other ways but now that deviates from cars and car engineering, design and purpose, in general and in total, and instead goes more to the individual. I might be totally off my rocker but would hope some can see what I'm getting at. Then there are a lot who probably don't get past the "it's pretty" or "I like the color" stuff so outside of really technical and widespread basis we don't see that so it usually includes different types of considerations.
I get the sense that these are a few sticking points for you, as it relates to the rest of the discussion. They are, 100k sales for the 3/4 and TL or TLX shares it's platform with an Accord. Think you will have better luck here with the I like something smaller and RWD, once again. I get that's it's not RWD which is very popular in the luxury segments but outside of that, many here don't see the basis of the inferiority of the so called Accord based platform especially based on the above examples, need something more there to go off of.
With regards to the sales number, is there a rule that one can only buy a car that sells more than 7k units a month or something? Should one disregard subjective preference or even more objective balance relating to other cars and all the other qualities and things people look at or value and consider in cars and simply buy the car that everyone else does and just for that or those reason?
There really would be no other cars or so little variety and that would suck, if it had to be only RWD, a coupe and sold exceptionally well. So really these things should have little to nothing to do with anything, it starts and ends with the finished products and how they compare to each other and how that relates to the buyer and what they look at or look for. Something else that isn't liked or not well suited is not magically or automatically inferior or less capable than it is because of those reasons.
For example, I don't particularly care for the 3, think it can get expensive for how I like my cars and a bit relative to others in other classes, and that it is small for me. All subjective qualities. However it's a great car and a market leader for those looking for that kind of car. And that's about it, I don't need to get into the stuff that may or may not actually have any basis in the car or about the brand like the snob imagery or appeal, the lack of LSD, use of struts, and single piston brakes, that it's 33% of what makes BMW and all over the world and it's not particularly impressive as a luxury car outside of entry level (not that the TL is) for such an esteemed luxury brand, etc. Just like others do about the so called "Accord" platform and Acura/Honda relation and/or image because, just the same, I don't think it has any basis and secondly, even if it did, not sure where any of that actually fits in or relates to the finished products themselves. Most here don't shout these things from the mountain, except in these discussion because, for one thing, I know that I don't care enough one way or another and maybe as a general auto enthusiast, these things are probably beneath that.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-03-2014 at 04:55 PM.
04-03-2014, 06:13 PM
#120
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Agree I think $57K & going head to head with the performance brands is a bad joke & a recipe for disaster. Coming in at sub $50K & undercutting the premiums would IMHO be a very good plan.
Reason I brought up the BMW & Ford ALMS now "Tudor" series is people here throw numbers, always way to low, around very casually to justify things. Any development costs a lot of money & the ROI is always the first hurdle you need to clear.
Fun thread. I am drilling & spraying a lot of panels today. Have time to measure & punch some holes, score the surface, prime, then lay on the truck bed liner while checking the thread in between for new posts.
Of course, again, this is all speculation and playing with numbers. This is what this thread is about. We aren't here to do accounting, development, and engineering for Acura.