hadokenuh

My friend actually bought a Kia Cadenza a couple of month ago with the luxury package (?). It was actually a very nice car. It instantly reminded of the current Lexus ES350 as soon as I started driving it. He got it for around 34K I think. So right on with the Avalon money which seems to be its main competitor.

BEAR-AvHistory

You will not make your case cherry picking the numbers to make the TLX look good. All in OTD pricing of V6/V6 AWD the Hyundai pricing is very attractive.

The fact that its has V8 & V8AWD versions above V6 just indicates they have expanded the line past what the TLX offers.

fsttyms1

Ignorant

fsttyms1

Yea, a cheap, old model rental. Now go to the dealer and go sit in the new top trim Optima. The gap between that and the TLX closes quite a bit. While i dont think those 2 are in the same class, i do believe the Genesis is above the TLX and is to compete with the 5/A6/and "IF" it were to be considered a competitor to the others the RLX

Edit.... Oops. was thinking Sonata not Optima..

CheeseyPoofs McNut

[QUOTE=fsttyms1;15166753]Actually it was a fairly well equipped 2013 - mileage was under 10k as I recall.

Again - not a bad car at all - in fact I like them and for the price (less than an Accord IIRC) I think they're a good bang for the buck car. But after spending two days in it I was very happy to be back in my Accord EXL.

It's plain to me: TLX > Accord > Optima.

CARLOS10

What more difficult to built a good sport sedan or a luxury sedan ???

Stew4HD

Why would either be more difficult?

MardiGras

Most difficult = luxury sport sedan.

BEAR-AvHistory

I would make a WAG that its a sport sedan. Track performance engineering & parts do not generally translate well to street use.

Getting the balance right for a street oriented performance car should be more difficult than getting a softer compliant pure street ride.

fsttyms1

Jmark

Not trying to cherry pick anything. I've not looked at the Genesis yet, although I did look at the Kia and no way. And I must agree adding a V8 does put the car in another class.
I'm going to test drive the Genesis as I do like the looks of the car.

Glashub

The 2012 Genesis I bought already had features on it that Acura (and others) are just now incorporating. These features were available when the car was introduced in 2009. It was a remarkably well build and Lexus quiet car. Not a single problem and the Hyundai dealership experience was very good but the waiting area "amenities" were a step down. The Tau V8 is extraordinary and the in-house built 8 speed was flawless if a little slow in downshifting. If Acura had a Tau engine and RWD we wouldn't be debating TLX or Genesis, I think. Now here's the rub and it puts me in Kevin's camp regarding which is harder to build --- the ride handling was subpar and even though the new Genesis is supposed to be much better -- ask yourself this -- how long did it take the Japanese to develop a car comparable to the ride/handling of a BMW? My experience is that the ride/handling/steering is the most difficult part of car building. Therefore I submit that a sports sedan is harder to create than a luxury car.

CARLOS10

By definition a long wheelbase, a V8 , soft suspension, tons of insulation materials , leather
should produce a comfy ride. ANY ANY car company in the world can built such car.
In the event that TATA built such car, can they claim a spot in the Luxury car category
and compete with Mercedes, Audi, BMW ???

dysonlu

Yeah, so? Again, that "snapshot" (disingenuously quoted to support a point) shows decreases across the board, while reality (year-over-year) is very different.

And regarding history, according to Wikipedia, Honda US Sales peaked in 2007, just before the financial crisis and the natural disaster in Japan. Naysayers will say this is just an excuse but a similar decrease happened to Toyota too (peaked in 2007).

As for Hyundai, sure their increased sales is quite impressive. But at what pace? Did you look at their year-to-year pace? Currently, Hyundai's US annual sales is roughly half of Honda's. ~540,000 cars in 2010, to 645,000 cars in 2011, to ~700,000 cars in 2012, to ~720,000 cars in 2013. Is their momentum increasing or decreasing? When will they pass Honda (1.5M cars last year) in the US with that pace?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not taking any credit away from Hyundai, nor am I underestimating them or say that they will never pass Honda but my point is that Honda isn't going off a cliff and Hyundai isn't quite making a killing. At that pace, it will surely take much longer than 5 years for Hyundai to even get close to Honda in US sales (assuming that Honda is just standing still on sales). So people with their exaggerated predictions are not serious.

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^^^^^^

You really need to expand your horizons. These two companies like Ford, GM, BMW & everybody else compete in a global market. Hyundai as a car company is already twice as big as Honda.

2013

Hyundai:
Profit $7.6 Bn
Units sold 7,126,413
Global rank #4

Honda:
Profit $2.6 Bn
Units sold 4,110,857
Global rank #7

DEman19901

I just don't understand why Hyundai just doesn't Genesis a separate luxury division. I find it ironic that Hyundai puts more effort into Genesis under the same name than Honda does into Acura which is supposed to be it's luxury division. Hyundai gives Genesis desperate RWD platforms and engines.

jjsC5

Go back a couple of pages. We have discussed that.

dysonlu

I stayed in the "horizon" that was set by the initial numbers quoted and the context of the initial argument. Bringing global sales, which is obviously a given that Hyundai's bigger (so point of arguing), is moving the goal posts and disingenuous as an argument. I expect better.

thassett

I really find myself giving the new 2015 Genesis a strong look. When you look at all the features you get for the money, and that most of those features are on cars that cost $20,000 more, I'm really seriously considering it.

I'm a huge Acura and Honda fan. Had a 1998 Legend coupe, now have an 06 TL with 140,000 miles, so I've got my eye on the new TLX.

But when looking at interior features, technology, fit and finish, interior space, and cost, I think I'll definitely test drive the Genesis at least.

hddnav

Based on merit alone, I agree that the new Genesis looks like a really attractive and compelling car. The only thing wrong with it is that it's a Hyundai !

Yes, I'm biased and I'm proud to admit it!

SSFTSX

Hyundai Genesis is tested noiser than TLX. The rear tire size is 275/35. This kind of tire will need yearly replacements.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...s-50-sedan.pdf

FredS

I do not care as much of initial quality. The car is under warranty. What I care about is long term reliability. Here it is not even close. J D Power ranks Acura 4 out of 31 and Hyundia 27 out of 31 ouch!!! There is also general upkeep. My RL is five years old and looks brand new inside and out. Look at a five year old Genesis.

vhtran

LOL no...Yearly replacement on any tire size if you drive aggressively. I had 275/35 on my G35 back then and I am a spirited driver when taking exits.

thassett

How much noisier? And you posted the V8 noise levels. What about the V6? Are we talking about very slight differences? Or big ones?


TOTALLY agree that initial quality is a worthless measurement. It's all about long term quality, which is why I've always owned Hondas or Acuras.

However, my 8 year old TL's leather seats are in bad shape, and I'm very OCD about taking care of the car. (wear, rips, etc.) IMHO, Honda has always used leather with poor durability. Had the same issue with my wife's '05 Accord Coupe, and my '88 Legend.

Also, if Hyundai is throwing in a 100,000 mile, 10 year warranty, that gives me confidence regarding long term issues.

CARLOS10

Well the TLX is like a comparison Marciano vs Ali , Ruth Vs Kersaw , Chamberlain vs Jordan.
All is theory, fiction , assumptions. Isnt the Genesis available with AWD ??.
who will dare to take both cars to the track, hills , narrow roads, drive both cars to theirs
limits and come up with a winner ??. Motor Trend, Car & driver, ???.

BEAR-AvHistory

My 335is had Conti DW Summer 275X30X19's on the rear & 245X35X19 in the front & did not need yearly replacement even though the car was pushed reasonably hard.

They were still very good with over 25K miles on them when the car was sold. No track days on them but they did have some weekend drag races @ Rockingham holding 410whp.

Glashub

It would take billions to create a separate brand -- and then the Genesis wouldn't be a deal. From what I understand manufacturer margins were on average about 20% in the 90's -- margin to create a new brand with. They are about 8% now. No margins. I really think Hyundai Heavy Industries -- the largest ship builder in the world subsidizes the auto division.

saturno_v

I would add this.

- A new brand would not mean immediate acceptance from luxury buyers regardless, many would still think of the new label as a "dressed up Hyundais" like some people still think after 25 years of Lexus cars as tarted up Toyotas...you are not going to convince a typical Benz or BMW buyer to give it a try anyway..so the extra cost would not bring many benefits at least not in the short-medium term....better keep fishing in the "smart luxury/I cannot pass this deal" pond.

- The German luxury brands nowadays are becoming more and more generalist car manufacturers....they keep lowering the barrier of entry (models and engines) in order to pump up volumes. BMW now produces cheap FWDs under its own brand (the Active Tourer models), 3 cylinder engines, etc..
Audi has always produced minicars in Europe which are tarted up VW Polos...the A3 is a tarted up Golf.
Even "Your Majesty" Mercedes has broken down and now it does swim as well in the waters of El Cheapo cars sharing engines and components with Renault.....so why build a luxury brand now when the sacred cows of the business are hell bent in dismantling their own perceived exclusivity??

CheeseyPoofs McNut

They are sort of moving in that direction by giving the Genesis it's own badge - separating themselves from the cheap (perception) crooked H badge.

I think maybe they could create a brand (name it after another 70's prog rock band (like Genesis) maybe King Crimson) and still have it share space with Hyundia at the dealerships - at least initially. Give them a super plush high end office at the dealership with a fancy Keurig coffee machine, bowls filled with those fancy pants after dinner mints and comfortable chairs. Then after a few years when they roll out more cars - The King Crimson Pink Floyd or the King Crimson Kansas (the sport model) - they can start to roll out their own high end dealerships in major markets and the etc.

Seriously - the Genesis may be a great car (I finally saw one on the road a few weeks back and have to say it looks very nice in person) but people of my generation (the generation who has 50 grand to spend on a prog rock car) will always have a certain bias against the Hyundai's and the Kia's.

TacoBello

Keep in mind that at one time, Nissan, Honda and Toyota all had that bias against them too. Look where they are now. I don't think anyone dares to even bring up those bias' from years gone by.

Give Hyundai another ten years. They've gone leaps and bounds in the last decade- if they continue on like this, I think in another decade that bias will be struggling to remain.

Majofo

Hyundai > Acura

CheeseyPoofs McNut

I agree to a point - however when Honda/Toyota/Datsun started selling cars in the US the bias was more against the Japanese - not so much based on the quality, although they certainly had some (rust) issues back then. By the 80's they were building and selling cars that surpassed quality from American cars. People would buy a Lexus and Acura because they would buy a Honda or Toyota with no fear of quality issues.

The bias against Kia/Hyundai was because they primary focused on the low end "cheap" segment of the market and generally didn't build high quality products. So yes - by consistently building better cars with long term reliability (might still have some work there) they can overcome that bias with the young generation - but they still have a long ways to go. 10 years - maybe - it will be fun to watch.

Majofo

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

2 FORMER HONDA CEO's take a trip to Honda's current CEO to ask him to step up quality control ....


Doesnt sound great for Honda, and Honda is the one that needs to catch up.

TacoBello

Wrong again, Hyundai built cheap, crappy cars in the late 80s and early 90s. And then they tanked and disappeared altogether. At some point, the execs at Hyundai decided "hey we should try doing cars again, but this time, let's put a serious effort in and do things right".

Since then they have not exactly been building unreliable cars. Cheap? Depends who you're asking. A guy that can afford only a civic will not necessarily consider an equivalent Hyundai/Kia cheap, especially with the stuff they're putting out these days. A guy looking at a 3 series would. Hyundai is not in that segment. That same guy would say a civic looks cheap also.

As far as rust goes, Honda was putting out shit cars in the 70s. Then in the 80s. Then in the 90s. And somewhere in the 2000s they got their shit together. And by "shit cars" I mean that they had rusty quarter panels by the time they were 6 years old on some cars. Sure they would drive another 20 years, but they looked like shit. And yet no one really said anything beyond "but they run forever!"

I have a 2012 Hyundai Sonata 2.0T Limited (purchased in 2011) . My wife drives it. I was in the mindset too that I would NEVER buy a Hyundai. I cross shopped Camry's, Accords, Fusions and Altimas, and the Hyundai won, because dollar for dollar, I got a way better looking car, a faster car, a car with wicked MPG, the biggest trunk, panoramic sunroof, heated rear seats, navigation, etc, etc, at a price point the others could not match.

Oh, and our Sonata now has almost 87,000km on the turbo engine, and the only issue we've had with the entire car thus far was that the electronic waste gate had to be reprogrammed at about 15,000km, due to a TSB that was issued. Not. A. Single. Issue. Beyond. That. How's that for reliability, especially on a turbo engine?

Stew4HD

So, a senior manager calls in 2 other managers and tells them to step the QA and now Honda is in trouble? Really?

Honda is being bit by the same air bag mfg other companies have used

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

just saying and have been saying for a while now.
Honda is headed towards the Big 3 failure.

its what happens when we get comfortable.
Let's step it up Honda!!

Majofo

They're making an Acura minivan... quality isn't their biggest issue.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Sports car? we dont need no stinking sports car. its a sport car.
(sounds like Engrish to me)

Majofo

amirite?