dysonlu

You just need to trace back to the original quoted comment (which I just noticed you actually "thanked"!) to understand what it "has to do" with Acura sales. And if you still don't know why, then blame the original poster for bringing Honda sales to the table for the discussion. I'm just playing his own game and prove his argument does not stand while doing it.

BEAR-AvHistory

IIRC the original post was about Honda vs Hyundai posted by Stew saying that Hyundai that they would never pass Honda.

Justin posted in response a chart showing many of the Honda cars in the lineup tanking in sales

I thanked the post because in fact Hyundai had already passed Honda & is #3 or #4 in the world for car production. I was not referring to a specific car line in the Honda corporate structure.

In the US alone Hyundai sells about 255,000 more cars a year than Honda.

usdmJON

I for one could never take a hyundai over a honda. Period.

Sure the Genesis Sedan looks gorgeous. But they are poor quality cars in my opinion. Inside feels like plastic more than luxury and has anyone noticed the disgusting exhaust marks that get left behind on the lighter sedans. I took a picture for another thread once...

Their flagship, a 40 thousand dollar car should NOT look like that. I am not a mechanic, but Hyundai cut corners somewhere which led to this. I see it all the time. Disgusting. You wont see an Accord doing that even after 200,000 miles.

I take that small issue and figure if that is okay then what other short comings will Hyundais see later in their life.

dysonlu

Those numbers that you thanked show monthly VARIATIONS of sales, which do not say anything about Hyandai vs Honda sales or anything remotely relevant to that. And assuming that this guy actually understood just a bit what the numbers he's quoting meant, his point was that Honda was in a horrible decline. (But that is not even true.)

Jmark

I'm not a mechanic either, rather an engineer. It would appear from you picture they didn't pay enough attention to wind tunnel testing on their final design. The exhaust deposition we see looks like it is due to a low pressure region above the pipes, giving the exhaust a place to deposit.
Just a guess as though, and it does look UGLY!

BEAR-AvHistory

Not sure what is selling in your area but across the country the YTD numbers through August are ILX 11390 Genesis 20,065. Almost 2 Genesis's sold for every ILX.

Demographics, weather etc have a lot to do with what sells where; that's why national numbers are the only valid way to compare brands.

IIRC they sell more pickups than cars in NC.

millarduck

Hyundai should have created a luxury brand. Selling a car for $40-60K while selling $14000 Accents diminishes the brand, and let's be frank, the prestige. Audi, Cadillac, Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus all have cheaper sibling brands. They do not mix them. They offer separate dealerships and service with amenities worthy of the price of the vehicle.

Genesis and Equus will be lumped with econo cars, and the perception of quality that still dogs Hyundai. They never created the buzz Lexus did with the commercials with the ball bearings or wine glasses when Toyota launched that line.

I still do not know what they are doing with Kia. Is it a lesser brand or equal to Hyundai? Rio and K900 another $14-60K stretch.

Either way I associate both brands as cheap cars. Cheaper than the brands they aspire to match.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its month to month but still a snapshot of what has happened to HONDA over the past 10 or so years. Historically the Accord 2013 sales are up over the prior few years, thanks to the new model, but are still 33,000 units short of their best years.

The Civic has been a better performer & is only off 3,000 a year.

The TL was off 54,000 units in 2013 compared to its peak. I think the point most are making is there is a lot is riding on the TLX but the main problem the car, which IMHO is very nice, will have is a much more crowed market at its various price points.

Some here are saying brand A,B or C are overpriced but people buying those brands in record numbers are disagreeing with their pocketbooks.

ttribe

Correction - the Equus is their flagship.

hddnav

I'm not a fan of Korean engineering and any Korean product, period, due to their engineering culture of being extreme aggressive and cutting corners, where any means justifies the ends. This extends from their Samsung Galaxy's phones with their inferior Touchwiz skin, to the Samsung HDTV, to the LG refrigerators, to the Hyundais and Kias.

However, just watch, in 10 years, Hyundais and Kias are going to be considered as more upmarket and better engineered than Hondas and Toyotas. The Japanese have been stagnant for so long, that it's just a matter of time before government-backed corporations from other countries overtake them in quality, as well as perception of quality.

Right now, I view the quality of Hyundai's about on par with Cadillac and other American makes. In ten years, you'll have Chinese automakers entering the scene, with the Koreans being the front-runners in terms of overall perception of quality and bang for the buck. The Japanese automakers will have nothing but reliability to claim as their strength, while the American automakers will still need to cling to the buy-American crowd and unsophisticated, blue-collar full-sized trucks to stay in business.

Regarding the Genesis exhaust soot on the bumper above the tailpipes, I completely agree with you. This completely stinks of half-assed engineering and rushing the product out to market without adequate testing. However, the car's features are a great bang-for-the-buck, so this Walmart bargain-basement approach still seems to be working in the American marketplace. At what price point this becomes unacceptable remains to be seen.

Rocketsfan

I thought about this thread the other day as a brand new (I think it was brand new anyway, it was definitely previous gen - not the new 2015 model) Genesis started parking nearby me in the parking garage. A white one, no-less. Nice looking car.

usdmJON

I have no idea what is selling more. Im just saying maybe 3-4 years ago the Genesis Coupe was everywhere in my valley. Everyone was modding them and you just saw and heard them EVERYWHERE. It seems most of these guys have since traded the genesis in for something else, be it a ford, subaru, etc etc.

Where as with the ILX, I never saw them before. Now I see them at least once a week.

So Im not saying the ILX is selling more. Im just saying Ive noticed a decrease in Genesis since they blew up and Im seeing the ILX steadily rise.

ttribe

Confirmation bias.

usdmJON

LOL true if I was saying the Genesis coupe sucked and ilx is awesome.
But I am not. I'm just saying all the tuned genesis that always tried to race me are now gone. Where as I keep seeing more ILXs. Just an observation. Not an opinion.

usdmJON

Let us know if you notice any soot marks around the exhaust. I wonder if this is due to people not cleaning the car or if it isn't preventable.

jjsC5

First of all, the Genesis shown above is the old model, and there is a new one now that is MUCH improved and getting great reviews. And Hyundai in general is rated highly in quality surveys.

As to why they did not create a different brand, it's very likely because they are using the Genesis and Equus to bring the perception UP on their other vehicles so they want them associated with the Hyundai brand. They are not stupid, they know that many people won't buy them because of the Hyundai brand. But let's be honest, even if they did create a new brand everyone would still know they they are Hyundais.

aIRpeACE

iTrader: (2)

i will pick the TLX regardless.

however, we have to admit that Genesis is a pretty decent and nicely design car.

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/genesis/comparison.aspx

CARLOS10

Audi look good ? then the Genesis should look good.
Astor Martin emblem look good ? Then the Genesis should.
Astor Martin Hood look good ? Then the Genesis should
Audi A7 side profile look good ? then the Genesis should
Lexus interior look good ? so is the Genesis interior.
Even a car build by Carlos that mix all those elements should look good.

C8N

A friend just bought a 2015 Genesis.
I sat in the back during the test drive and boy... that thing was comfortable. If I had a chauffeur... I'd buy the Genesis over the TLX.

usdmJON

I dont like the new look as much as the previous model's look.
I feel this one is a cross between a new 300c and new mazda3 + a little ford fusion with that front end.
Where as the old one reminded me of the big body Mercedes. I actually would double take them at first thinking it was a Merc.

Glashub

Another reason is that creating a new brand and opening dealerships would cost billions. The cost would be passed down to the consumer.


BTW, Hyundai is the worlds biggest shipbuilder. I'd say in size and scale they dwarf Honda. Not sure tho, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Heavy_Industries

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

I 'd jon!!

confirmation bias means exactly that.
you see more of your car because you own the ILX.

usdmJON

I must be wording this wrong. I know what Confirmation bias is. I took a Critical Thinking course in college. lol

Im not trying to say there are more ILXs than Genesis or that the ILX is selling more. I am saying the TREND of the Genesis Coupes has fallen where as the TREND of ILXs are slowly rising.
Not saying the ILX has risen higher than the Genesis currently is. Though I see how it may sound like that.

I used to see a modded Genesis Coupe near every day. Now, maybe twice a week.
The ILX I NEVER saw a year ago. Recently, I see them maybe once a week.

So yes there are still more Genesis on the road. I just see the trend going down. All i'm saying guys. They used to be the shit in my valley. Seemed like all the STI types picked them up to mod a car no one else had. Now, all gun. Either they all moved away or they bought new cars. Not saying they went and bought Acuras or anything.

BEAR-AvHistory

I think you are seeing what you want to see in the ILX “trend” So far this year the ILX only broke 1700 cars sales one month. Last year it did it 6 times & its first year out of 8 months it did it half the time.

So you have two years where the ILX sold better than 1700 cars 1/2 the time. This year its 1 for 8 & by any definition that is a negative trend.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

<---------lives in the Houston area with lots of people (6.18 million people to be exact)

doesnt see a lot of ILXs...

usdmJON

HEEEY YOOOU GUUUUYS

LOL I'm not talking sales numbers.

One year into production I saw one a month and now further into production I see them once a week. That is an obvious statement that cant be argued unless Acura sold ZERO in the last year.

Second statement, tuned Genesis Coupes. I used to see them every day racing around my valley. Now, I cant remember the last time I saw a tuned one. Maybe they all got impounded or the owners bought something else. Regardless, I dont see tuned Genesis Coupes as much as I see the ILX... this was not so a year ago.

CARLOS10

Hyundai entered that segment because they were using those RWD plataform in Korea.
Did you hear something about the Hyundai 3 Serie fighter lately ???. Nothing.
Hyundai cant built that model because there isnt any RWD korean model with that
plataform. So the rebadge of older RWD trick cant work.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

and ttribe summed up your long winded paragraph(s) with 2 words:

Confirmation bias.


The only reason why you see this trend, Jon, is because you own the ILX.


no one else sees this trend, butt you! (its not a bad thing, we're just giving your trend a name)

BEAR-AvHistory

This is starting to get really funny.

After 2012 there were 12,251 ILX cars on the road. Including YTD 2014 there are now 43,000+ ILX car on the road.....Shazamm you are now seeing more ILX cars on the road because there ACTUALLY are more ILX cars on the road.

This called cumulative growth not an upward trend in growth. An upward growth trend is they sell 10 in 2012, 20 in 2013 & 30 in 2014.

usdmJON

Nooooo. BEAR finally got it. What I was saying was OBVIOUS. Sorry trend was the wrong term. I simply SEE more ILXs because there ARE more ILXs. Hence why Ive been laughing at this argument. There is no argument. There ARE more ILXs on the road.



That is literally all I was saying. I used the word trend incorrectly after the statement "That is what I see" was taken for claiming to know the sales numbers. My apologize for using the term incorrectly. It was used very loosely to try to explain what I meant. I never stated the ILX was in an upward growth trend. Simply that in my area they are increasing. Trend seemed like a decent word. my bad.

LOL Stupid argument. My statement was pretty Captn Obvious from the start.

This all because I said
I SEE more ILXs all the time. Not claiming to know sales numbers or that the genesis is selling less. Simply that all the tuner Genesis are gone and the ILX is obviously selling, as few units as they move, it still increases the amount of ILXs on the road.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^ i just like messing with you.

because Confirmation bias

usdmJON

LOL Believe, of all the fallacies known to man bias is NOT one I embody.
If anything I like to devils advocate more than I argue my own opinions.

However, on the topic of fallacies... the red herring seems to be the drug of choice in these forums.

wlkeel

Bingo! From what I have read, this is the big reason.

And the Genesis price is very attractive. Don't compare MSRP's, you can deal on the Genesis.

Glashub

Got about 6K off my 2012 4.6 the 1st month it came out. So I bought it for about 39K (45K list) -- sold it to CarMax for 26K 2 years later. 6.5K depreciation a year. Just checked on my IS -- 6k depreciation. The point is that the deals Hyundai dealers will cut and all of the incentives offered by Hyundai seem to offset depreciation.

dysonlu

Those quoted numbers show a decrease of sales virtually across the board for a given month. But overall, year to date, sales are only about 1% lower than last year's, which was Honda's second best year in history. So those numbers are a snapshot of nothing significant in the grand scheme of things.

BEAR-AvHistory

Problem is their best year in history was 8 years ago. Also some recent history in 2011 sales were less than in 2002.

Meanwhile Hyundai doubled its sales since 2002 & will post another increase this year. Except for two years since 2002 year to year sales have increased, which might actually be a trend.

123456SPEED

Chuckling at all the disdain for the audacity of bad engineering that allows exhaust staining on an upscale model Hyundai. Acura would never suffer that-- you might want to google the 2G Acura RL, it had the same issue, the Acura recall put 'all new' finishers on, (now that's ingenious engineering).
Seems so silly a thing to base the engineering ability of Hyundai on.
Honda better watch out. Hyundai has made great strides in a short time.

saturno_v

People that actually said that the TLX is on par with the Genesis needs a supersized dose of reality shot....just go to a Hyundai dealer that sells Genesis (not all of them do) and sit into the thing....

I'm on vacation in Europe right now, driving a semi-stripper BMW 5 Series Touring (a 520d) and I wish I had a 2015 Genesis.....

saturno_v

The 3 Series sells very well for a variety of reasons...obviously they are very good cars but also they do offer a range of choices that competitors do not...more engine choices, coupes, wagons....and yes the brand reputation sells as well...

Let's not forget that the 3 Series has lowered the entry level offering with the new 320i.

However, semi-strippers or if you want to call it "lightly optioned" specimen are very common....and I do suspect that leases are much more than 50% even in ultra wealthy Seattle.....the very popular say is that BMW are meant to be leased, even guys at Bimmerfest say that.

..and BMW does rely on killer lease deals (with very high residual) for a lot of sales....very common to read of incredible lease packages from BMW owners.

BMW dealers to do have ad banners like anybody else...

Finally, on the small engine front (meaning less than V6, below 3 liters of displacement) other than the ATS, the Japanese competition cannot hold a candle to the BMW turbocharged 4 banger (or even the VW-Audi unit).

The Q50, for example, does not even play yet on that part of the segment.

People lusting after the 4 banger TLX should do themselves a favor and drive a 320i.....do not get fooled by the only 180 HP power spec.....just drive it.

I drove a 4 banger TLX and I was not impressed to say the least...and I do not believe the engine is radically changed.

usdmJON

I actually saw a white RL yesterday at work with the same markings. So I stand corrected. Ive only seen the RL like it once, where as I have seen the Genesis more than once.... but that makes sense since I see more Genesis than RLs.

LOOK! A corner, Im going to go stand in it...