dysonlu

Devil's in the details... Doing an approximation is the easy part; getting the details right to match with the competitors is much more difficult.

Hugh9269

The Sonata has been in our market since 1993 as a Hyundai developed product and it is still no Honda Accord.... Solid products, priced right, but yes still not class leading.

Glashub

Saw a 2015 Genesis in person. I am not impressed. To me, it's an odd looking car. Given the fluidic design language which was so fresh and new when it came out -- I expected beauty and didn't see it.

SL1200MK4

After driven both the 2015 Genesis V6 and V8 models, I can honestly say that the new Genesis is awesome. Please do yourself a favor and give it a try before knocking it. They drive like a big old Mercedes, which is very composed, comfortable but also a bit isolated.

The Genesis is without a doubt the more luxurious car, but I am hoping that the TLX can have a sportier personality while delivery an adequate level of refinement. It might not be as luxurious as the Genesis, but it also cost less.

Again, let's not get too caught up with magazine numbers, but per Car and Driver the 2015 Genesis V6 AWD has near identical performance as the 2012 TL with SH-AWD. So, if the 2015 TLX improves upon that with some margin, then I think I will be a happy Acura driver again.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...wd-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

Just found out that the Canadian TLX has available the heated windshield. That and the remote start feature are looking very attractive after we had one of the worse winter up here in years.

Shaqs2002TLS

The Genesis is an odd looking car and your TL is NOT? The 4G TL is the one of the oddest looking cars for its generation. The Genesis, IMO, is a pretty nice looking car.

White Magic

These cars are in different classes. One is luxury/ not sporty(Genesis) and the other is sporty/near luxury. The new genesis is one of the best looking and we'll appointed cars I've seen for the money, but I'm not looking for the executive cruiser. I want want a main course of sport/performance with a side of luxury. If the TLX comes even a little close to living up to its hype then that would be my choice. It's like comparing an E class vs a C class sedan. Either you want to take your time and cruise in style or you want carve corners and find the most exciting route back to your house.

SL1200MK4

You nailed it. Exactly why I am waiting to test drive the TLX and hoping that it will be a more fun and engaging car.

But besides that qualitative measure, the TLX V6 SH-AWD must deliver in numbers, too. If the performance just merely match the 4G TL SH-AWD, then it really cannot be considered as "sporty" by today's standard.

Stew4HD

The word sporty is being tossed around a lot on here. It seems that the word is an adjective and is totally subjective.

Lots of people call the 3 series sporty, I do not other than the M. The 335 has a touch of it. Others talk about how sporty the MBs are. The SL, SEL class and AMG, yeah but he others? Not many other MB's do anything for me.

I found the 4G & 4G MMC to be quite sporty looking. The 3G never hit me as sporty.

Very subjective

millarduck

Hyundai is a car people settle for when they can't get the car they really want.

Really, who aspires to own a Hyundai?

tsxacura

Not sure if aspiration is the best argument when speaking of most vehicles under the 50-70k mark. When I think of a car I truly aspire to in my life, I think of high end MB/BMW, Maserati, Aston, and the like. Anything below that would really be settling right? I would love a new S65AMG fully loaded, but my current life situation will see me "settle" for a really well made, reliable, and apparently (pre-test drive) fun to drive Acura TLX.

weather

^^ Welcome to Acurazine. You have had two GREAT posting so I am delighted to se you have created an account here and will positively contribute to our forum.

White Magic

As good as the genesis may be it still have memories of my parent's Hyundai excels from the 80's and 90's. Surprised Hyundai is still around after those debacles. I think that's why Acura gets so much flack now; because of their awesome history of reliability and the ability to produce bulletproof engines.

Hyundai has come a long way but they need to have some original designs and innovations instead of blatantly copying the Germans before they can be considered amongst the premium brands.

tsxacura

First off, thanks for the positive reception! Second, i agree white magic, I definitely think Hyundai has a long road to travel. I'm 24 but I still remember when I was searching for my first vehicle in high school, hyundai (and kia) was still making the cheapest cars on the road. They've come far, but the image of a sub 13k hyundai would still keep me from pulling the trigger on a sub 50k hyundai.

My hope is that Acura here will take the almost 3 decades or so of positive brand image it has over hyundai and combine it with its expertise in SUVs recently to market the heck out of the tlx. The reviews already seem great so if Acura can keep supply steady and continue marketing well, they should definitely be able to take on the IS.

KeithL

That is a rather snobby statement on an Acura forum? I expect that statement on a German car forum. Isn't an Acura settling? This all comes down to what is important to a person.

jjsC5

You may be right, but not for the right reasons. My wife has borderline orderd me not to buy a Genesis, yet she has never seen the inside of one, let alone driven it. People forget that 50 years ago anything made in Japan was considered junk too.

hddnav

Snobbery aside, I think the perception of Hyundai being junk is more of a generational thing. The Koreans lag the Japanese by about 4 decades, when it comes to being known for making quality goods. In the 1990's, Korean goods were commonly seen the same way Chinese goods are today.

For someone who grew up before the 2000's, Hyundai's reputation was indeed synonymous with junk.

Working in the high-tech sector today and having exposure to Samsung and LG electrical engineers, I can understand when others have a hard time attributing excellence with Korean engineering. I'm sure this will change in time, but reputations take a long time to build.

I recently bought a new refrigerator, and I consciously avoided Samsungs and LGs, in favor of a Whirlpool. In truth, they have all been known for their share of problems, regardless of brand, but I just couldn't get myself to spend several grand on a product that I didn't perceive to be of good quality.

SL1200MK4

It is also relative. The TLX doesn't even have to be considered as sporty by popular opinion. It just has to be sportier of two for me to sign on the dotted line and buy it.

Some "purist" wouldn't even consider the M3/M4 a sports car because it is based on the 3 series. To some, a real sports car should be on a dedicated platform designed as a sports car, such as the Corvette, 911, Boxster/Cayman...etc.

SL1200MK4

Unfortunately the reality is that between the TLX and the Genesis, the Acura is actually the settling choice. At the very least in the interior department.

Perhaps many responded in this thread have not even seen the pictures of the 2015 Genesis, let along driven one.

I will just leave these here. And if I am crazy for thinking that the Genesis has the better interior, then I want nothing to do with sanity.

- Napa Leather
- Panoramic Roof
- 16 way driver seat, 12 way passenger seat
- Micro-suede headliner
- Head Up Display
- Open Pore Wood Trim

tsxacura

I saw the pics of the new Genesis and got a chance to sit in one of the ultimate trims. It's a really great feeling vehicle on the inside. We have no idea how this car is going to hold up over time. We have little idea how reliable these features are going to be long term.

One of the easiest and really only ways to tell about a car's possible future is from it's manufacturer's past. If hyundai has routinely had terrible resale value (including the 2012 genesis that got a worse than average rating from CR), then they need to spend some years consistently showing me this will be a good car. Throwing in the kitchen sink does not a great car make. Acura, despite some questionable styling over the past few years, has continued to retain high resale/residual, high reliability, and pretty high quality interiors for the price.

I hope the hyundai succeeds. I really do because competition is great for the consumer, but it's hard to say we're settling when being compared to a brand that historically has been the king of people settling for cheap everything.

jjsC5

What is ironic about the "perception" being negative is that as a brand the are selling a gazillion of them in the US. I see them everywhere. I'm curious if the resale issue is just on the higher end models. Has anyone checked resale on the Sonata to see how it fares?

KeithL

I agree in part, especially LG and Samsung, but they are not 4 decades behind. I am old enough to remember Hyundai entering the US market and almost bought and early 1987 Excel, opted for a Sentra instead and the Sentra was bullet proof vs. those early Hyundais. And yes people burned by they early models poor reliability will likely avoid the Koreans, just as I would avoid LG appliances after having numerous minor DIY repairs. While their quality has drastically improved, the perception has not and thus resale value is horrible. If I were to get a Genesis (it is on my short list) it would clearly be a lease. I am also not a fan of Hyundai's deceptive warranty. First the electronics are on 3/36, yet they advertise 5/60 and 10/100 on the car. Also the 10/100 is for the first owner only.

As a side note I am a huge Whirlpool person, but fear their Maytag acquisition will hurt them if they do not get those models in line with the traditional Whirlpool reliability.

KeithL

Fully agree, and I would never buy a Genesis, but I would lease one ;-)

SL1200MK4

My first Acura was the 2nd Gen TL. Much like the TLX and the Genesis it was a lot of car for the money. I loved that car and had lots of fond memories with it.

Unfortunately it had a transmission made out of glass, so there goes the Acura reliability. That transmission problem went on to affect the 3rd Gen TL as well. The interior didn't hold up all that well, but I suppose for the money that was fair.

The resale was interesting, after a few years my car was barely worth more than an Accord V6 of the same model year.

Oswald Vater

I have trouble considering Hyundai as well for all the reasons others have listed. However Rick Case Acura and Rick Case Hyundai are located right next to each other in Ft. Lauderdale area. When I go to check out the TLX soon I will take a few steps next door to check out the Genesis as well. The 5-year warranty is certainly a temptation in that direction.

fsttyms1

My dads 10 Genesis is nearing 150k miles and it hasnt has a single issue other than a brake light diode. Doesnt burn a drop of oil, its as solid as the day he bought it (still on original suspension) gas mileage has been pretty darn good getting well over 28mpg hwy. Id say reliability for Hyundai has gone up greatly and shouldnt be something that someone based their sole decision on the brand on. I have a sour taste yet in my mouth from 5 failed trans with Acura but it wouldnt keep me from still considering them as a next vehicle. (they just need to produce something that i would want)

hddnav

But if you're going to lease to avoid repair headaches and nightmares, why not lease a BMW or Audi (or any other repair-prone "fun" car), then?

In either case, the primary purpose of the lease (vs ownership) would be to "own" it during the warranty period, then get rid of it before you actually have the foot repair bills.

bnilhome

Why are we continuing to compare the TLX to the Genesis. They are not in the same segment. The Genesis is notably bigger and really would be in competition with the RLX, 5-series, etc..

The TLX, as has been noted in multiple reviews this week, is in competition with the 3-series, A4, C-class, etc...

I have seen the Genesis in person, and it is a very nice looking sedan. The TLX also has improved its styling from prior generations, so both can be nice looking sedans, but they are targeted toward different car segments.

Glashub

@Shaqs2002TLS, I never said my 4G TL wasn't odd looking. I sold it several years ago and bought a 2012 Genesis. I now own a 2014 3IS Fsport. IMO the lines of the 2015 Genesis are not all that fluidic. Look at it from a number of angles. Spend time looking at it like I did.


My Genesis was bullet proof and totally rock solid and quiet. My friend owns a 2015 Genesis and a Lexus LS. All he can talk about are the features he gets with the Genesis. But when I push him about the ride he will admit that it's lags way behind the Lexus.


That was my take away from the 2012 -- after the trill of the leather and features wears off -- I was left with the ride/handling and although perfectly fine -- it ain't no Lexus or Acura SH-AWD. Depends on what you want, eh? I like the a balance of it all and in my experience Acura does that best and at a very reasonable price point. My Lexus is wonderful but it isn't that great of a value. Just my .02.

BEAR-AvHistory

Price overlap.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

How many of you think potential customers i.e. those in the market for E-Class, 5 series, A6, GS- would really cross shop the 15' Genesis? IMHO- they wouldn't. Although it is leaps and bounds better than its predecessor and larger, I still believe the entry level market is where the Genesis is going to win sales.

Glashub

^^^


You're right. Brand equity weighs in on buying decisions once a certain price point is hit. Heck, on occasion I check out the BMW's, MB's and Audi's in parking lots and discover that many of them don't even have nav or any features but from the outside looking in -- they're driving a status car.

Stew4HD

As long as the neighbors are impressed. Not all but many are after the staus symbol

DEman19901

The same can be said of Acura. Acura is a car people settle for when they can't get the luxury car that they really want. As a luxury car, Acura sells itself on features(bang for the buck) more than anything else. When it comes to driving dynamics, that's when they tend to fall to the back on the pack.

Glashub

Imaginary Hollywood conversation

Me: What kind of car do you drive?
Faux Power Broker: Well, I drive a BMW.
(The next question that should be asked)
Me: Base?
Faux Power Broker: Uh, yeah, the bass in the car is really good. What do you drive?
Me: Acura
Faux Power Broker: Oh really? Nice. Oh look there's Harry. Got to go. You really should step up in class someday.
Me: I got nav. Bet you don't. Ta, ta!

Stew4HD

Same coulod be said for every car unless it's a Lambo, S550 and others in that class. I do nt think I am settling when I buy an Acura. I am buying what I find to be a balance of value and comfort. I could buy a much more expensive car but why should I? I believe in living within my means.

DEman19901

I agree with you. I was just responding to the statement of which I thought was rather ignorant. No harm, no foul.

tsxacura

So I was thinking this thread would be more about ownership than leasing. Not sure why anyone would lease a genesis. After checking out most of the other forums, the Lexus GS and BMW 528i, both at a higher price and probably due to artificial inflation of their residuals, routinely are leasing lower than a genesis. Every car mag I've read comparing them agrees on the genesis being a better "value" but that both the GS and 5 are more premium automobiles.

And, I understand there are forum members that have personally had a bad experience with an Acura, especially the 03 transmission problem, and/or a good experience with a Hyundai, but citing personal stories isn't the best way to prove that a well established (reliability/resale value) factor of a brand's perception is incorrect. The market decides those perceptions to be accurate. IMO

KeithL

I have an Audi and it is a nice car, but I am really burning out on higher dollar cars. When I used to go on drives and vacation a lot with my cars it was great, but my A6 is used 95% for commuting so why spend that much for a nice commute. I would rather get many of the same features in something that will be just as reliable and less expensive and then flip it every 3 years. I think I am getting over the car addiction, and honestly the way it was headed I would be in trouble as I keep stepping up every time and will eventually regret it.

atsx1313

two different classes. Hyundai maybe will catch Honda later on but i don't trust the reliability... but the look of the new genesis sedan is amazing... i was actually thinking of getting one but I'll keep my TSX for now...

KeithL

Segment lines are not black and white. The car rags and manufactureres do not ultimatley decide what the competitors are, they guess or target. It comes down to what buyer wants to cross shop and while they may not be direct competitors on paper I believe they are for many. I also think they reason it becomes a TLX competitor is due to the lack luster reception of the RLX. So you get people (myself included) that wanted the RLX to be better styled and SH-AWD and have been disappointed by the car and ride. They do not want a German car for whatever reason and thus are looking at an Asian make. So if the RLX revolts you you are left with the TLX and competitors, the IS is rather small, the ES rather floaty. The Q50 is an option, or if these are all too small yu then have the Genesis. It straddle the price points of the TLX/IS/Q50, but then offers more of what you might find in the GS/Q70/RLX. This is how it becomes a competitor.