Questions regarding Intakes on the 4G
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Instructor
Joined: Feb 2015
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From: Connecticut
Questions regarding Intakes on the 4G
So clearly we only have 3 available intakes for the SH-AWD TL. The Takeda short ram, CT-Engineering cold air and I believe K&N has some sort of short ram system.
I was originally planning on getting the ice box but the wait was just far too long so I ended up purchasing the Takeda SRI. I did a lot of research on the TL and how the stock system works as well as researching how aftermarket intakes work. With the factory system technically being a "cold air intake" pulling outside air from an inlet located by the hood and straight to the factory air box wouldn't the Takeda be inhaling the same "cold" air that is coming from the outside. The filter is located right where the inlet hose is in the engine bay. So in essence doesn't it technically acts as a cold air system?
Also another theory that crosses my mind is this. When you start driving doesn't the outside air create a vacuum in the undercarriage and suck all the hot air out of the engine bay anyways? I cant imagine the air going into the manifold to be much hotter using a cold air or a short ram on this platform. I don't know if there is any validity to this theory, but it sounds plausible.
Anyways, just some food for thought on this platform l have been extremely bored awaiting the arrival of my performance parts and have been just researching away. Fire away and let me know how you guys feel about my theories on the intake systems.
I was originally planning on getting the ice box but the wait was just far too long so I ended up purchasing the Takeda SRI. I did a lot of research on the TL and how the stock system works as well as researching how aftermarket intakes work. With the factory system technically being a "cold air intake" pulling outside air from an inlet located by the hood and straight to the factory air box wouldn't the Takeda be inhaling the same "cold" air that is coming from the outside. The filter is located right where the inlet hose is in the engine bay. So in essence doesn't it technically acts as a cold air system?
Also another theory that crosses my mind is this. When you start driving doesn't the outside air create a vacuum in the undercarriage and suck all the hot air out of the engine bay anyways? I cant imagine the air going into the manifold to be much hotter using a cold air or a short ram on this platform. I don't know if there is any validity to this theory, but it sounds plausible.
Anyways, just some food for thought on this platform l have been extremely bored awaiting the arrival of my performance parts and have been just researching away. Fire away and let me know how you guys feel about my theories on the intake systems.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,448
Likes: 673
From: Ontario Canada
In theory, I would say it sounds correct.
However, as someone who went from stock to Takeda and back to stock,then from stock to Ct IceBox, allow me to share my experience. When I initially installed the Takeda it was during the Spring, it felt as if I gained some power on the low end but the car would stutter ever so slightly just before redline. Also, as the temperature went up the car seemed to lose power overall (heat soak??)
The second issue that I had with the Takeda started after I installed the HFPC, it would trigger a CEL (running rich). It was after this that I changed back to the stock intake,all my issues disappeared.
Without doubt the Takeda sounds awesome.
I purchased the IceBox (long wait period lol) and did the installation,extremely happy with it and no issues so far, I can definitely feel the difference but it does not sound as great as the Takeda.
I am not trying to knock the Takeda or justify purchasing an expensive IceBox, just sharing my personal experience with the products. Others may have a different experience.
However, as someone who went from stock to Takeda and back to stock,then from stock to Ct IceBox, allow me to share my experience. When I initially installed the Takeda it was during the Spring, it felt as if I gained some power on the low end but the car would stutter ever so slightly just before redline. Also, as the temperature went up the car seemed to lose power overall (heat soak??)
The second issue that I had with the Takeda started after I installed the HFPC, it would trigger a CEL (running rich). It was after this that I changed back to the stock intake,all my issues disappeared.
Without doubt the Takeda sounds awesome.
I purchased the IceBox (long wait period lol) and did the installation,extremely happy with it and no issues so far, I can definitely feel the difference but it does not sound as great as the Takeda.
I am not trying to knock the Takeda or justify purchasing an expensive IceBox, just sharing my personal experience with the products. Others may have a different experience.
we are forgetting one aspect!
the Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor.
higher IAT's WILL require the ECU to scale back timing.
the Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor.
higher IAT's WILL require the ECU to scale back timing.
Hey all. I've been a bit of a threadstarter lately but wanted to share some experiments I've ran lately on air intake temps (AIT's). I recently picked up a Garmin which monitors AIT's and have dinked around with various configurations to lower them as much as possible. For the most part, they're consistent with what's been said here already but with a few caveats.
First, I've noticed that the TL is especially sensitive to AIT's. Yes, I know this is already well established around here. But there are several videos and threads discussing the real power output effects of AIT's with some of them stating that it's not as big a deal as some think. With some cars, this may be true. But with the nature of the j-series engines (aggressive timing, compression ratio, etc.) AIT's are a pretty big deal and can significantly affect power output.
My current setup is as follows: Cheapo eBay CAI w/ AEM dryflow filter. Outlaw spacer kit (intake manifold and throttle body). UCM - Ultimate cooling mod.
Short Ram vs. Cold Air Intake - Using a cheapo eBay CAI and an AEM dryflow filter, my AIT's are between 8-20F higher than ambient temps as recorded on the MID. Typical is 10-15F higher with 20F being more common when idling for over a minute. This is pretty consistent regardless of ambient temp (ie. Ambient temp 70F, I'll see 80-85F IAT. Ambient temp 100F, I'll see 110-115F IAT). I've rarely gone over 20F above ambient. For example - it was 95F outside according to the MID about a week ago. The highest AIT I got was 114F when in line at the ATM for about two minutes.
My CAI can convert into a short ram. Since I'm all about weight loss, I figured I'd remove the lower pipe and give this a try. The filter was at the far right side of the engine bay behind the battery. I figured I'd get a little higher temps since some of the air would be from the engine bay. However, there's a pretty big area that exposes this part of the bay to outside air so I expected AIT's to be maybe 25-30F above ambient. I was wrong. Average AIT's were around 45-50F above ambient with it peaking at nearly 60F . It was 65F outside and my AIT's were hovering between 110-125F. My car probably thought it was 95F outside when it was a nice cool morning. The afternoon was even worse. 85F or so. AIT's? Probably the highest the car's ever seen - 135-145F. Power loss wasn't just significant, it was depressing. You'd think two or three of the cylinders were misfiring, or that I was towing a trailer. But I wanted to confirm my findings so I left it on for another day. Next day? Same thing. CAI went right back on and temps returned back to normal. Moral of the story - Short Ram is a boatload of fail.
CAI insulation - I fabricated a CAI insulator similar to Tim's in this thread: Insulating your CAI? - AcuraZine Community
I had some of the Styrofoam that he used wrapped the home depot insulation over it. I used metal tape like his. Mine didn't look as good but I feel it's probably the same as far as effectiveness . What I've noticed is that idle AIT's seem to have decreased a bit, maybe 2-3F. And that it takes longer for heatsoak to hit, where AIT's are a consistent 10-15F above ambient rather than 5-8F like in the first several minutes of driving. But after heatsoak hits, it's about the same. AIT's have decreased a negligible amount after heatsoak kicks in. It delays heatsoak a bit but in the end it's the same. Maybe 1-2F reduction after heatsoak. I'll leave it on because it's light and certainly doesn't hurt. But I wouldn't spend a ton of time or money on this.
Outlaw TB and IM spaces - I was very excited to install my outlaw spacers. However, I have noticed almost no change to AIT's
. I almost wonder if I did it wrong, though you can't really screw it up. I think that the UCM might negate the benefit of the spacers by keeping a constant flow of air hovering above the IM, therefore eliminating a lot of the heat that would otherwise heatsoak it. Before I ever installed the spacers I noticed what Tim (inaccurate) said: That the intake manifold was quite hot after driving, to the point that touching it for more than a second or two would result in a burn. But with the UCM, it was cool enough to the touch to place your hand on it. Either way, negligible reduction in AIT's.
Anyway, I hope this info is helpful to someone interested in reducing air intake temperatures. If anyone has further ideas to close my 10-15F gap, I'm all ears.
But at this point, I'm pretty happy with it.
First, I've noticed that the TL is especially sensitive to AIT's. Yes, I know this is already well established around here. But there are several videos and threads discussing the real power output effects of AIT's with some of them stating that it's not as big a deal as some think. With some cars, this may be true. But with the nature of the j-series engines (aggressive timing, compression ratio, etc.) AIT's are a pretty big deal and can significantly affect power output.
My current setup is as follows: Cheapo eBay CAI w/ AEM dryflow filter. Outlaw spacer kit (intake manifold and throttle body). UCM - Ultimate cooling mod.
Short Ram vs. Cold Air Intake - Using a cheapo eBay CAI and an AEM dryflow filter, my AIT's are between 8-20F higher than ambient temps as recorded on the MID. Typical is 10-15F higher with 20F being more common when idling for over a minute. This is pretty consistent regardless of ambient temp (ie. Ambient temp 70F, I'll see 80-85F IAT. Ambient temp 100F, I'll see 110-115F IAT). I've rarely gone over 20F above ambient. For example - it was 95F outside according to the MID about a week ago. The highest AIT I got was 114F when in line at the ATM for about two minutes.
My CAI can convert into a short ram. Since I'm all about weight loss, I figured I'd remove the lower pipe and give this a try. The filter was at the far right side of the engine bay behind the battery. I figured I'd get a little higher temps since some of the air would be from the engine bay. However, there's a pretty big area that exposes this part of the bay to outside air so I expected AIT's to be maybe 25-30F above ambient. I was wrong. Average AIT's were around 45-50F above ambient with it peaking at nearly 60F . It was 65F outside and my AIT's were hovering between 110-125F. My car probably thought it was 95F outside when it was a nice cool morning. The afternoon was even worse. 85F or so. AIT's? Probably the highest the car's ever seen - 135-145F. Power loss wasn't just significant, it was depressing. You'd think two or three of the cylinders were misfiring, or that I was towing a trailer. But I wanted to confirm my findings so I left it on for another day. Next day? Same thing. CAI went right back on and temps returned back to normal. Moral of the story - Short Ram is a boatload of fail.
CAI insulation - I fabricated a CAI insulator similar to Tim's in this thread: Insulating your CAI? - AcuraZine Community
I had some of the Styrofoam that he used wrapped the home depot insulation over it. I used metal tape like his. Mine didn't look as good but I feel it's probably the same as far as effectiveness . What I've noticed is that idle AIT's seem to have decreased a bit, maybe 2-3F. And that it takes longer for heatsoak to hit, where AIT's are a consistent 10-15F above ambient rather than 5-8F like in the first several minutes of driving. But after heatsoak hits, it's about the same. AIT's have decreased a negligible amount after heatsoak kicks in. It delays heatsoak a bit but in the end it's the same. Maybe 1-2F reduction after heatsoak. I'll leave it on because it's light and certainly doesn't hurt. But I wouldn't spend a ton of time or money on this.
Outlaw TB and IM spaces - I was very excited to install my outlaw spacers. However, I have noticed almost no change to AIT's
. I almost wonder if I did it wrong, though you can't really screw it up. I think that the UCM might negate the benefit of the spacers by keeping a constant flow of air hovering above the IM, therefore eliminating a lot of the heat that would otherwise heatsoak it. Before I ever installed the spacers I noticed what Tim (inaccurate) said: That the intake manifold was quite hot after driving, to the point that touching it for more than a second or two would result in a burn. But with the UCM, it was cool enough to the touch to place your hand on it. Either way, negligible reduction in AIT's. Anyway, I hope this info is helpful to someone interested in reducing air intake temperatures. If anyone has further ideas to close my 10-15F gap, I'm all ears.
But at this point, I'm pretty happy with it.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 124
Likes: 31
From: Connecticut
In theory, I would say it sounds correct.
However, as someone who went from stock to Takeda and back to stock,then from stock to Ct IceBox, allow me to share my experience. When I initially installed the Takeda it was during the Spring, it felt as if I gained some power on the low end but the car would stutter ever so slightly just before redline. Also, as the temperature went up the car seemed to lose power overall (heat soak??)
The second issue that I had with the Takeda started after I installed the HFPC, it would trigger a CEL (running rich). It was after this that I changed back to the stock intake,all my issues disappeared.
Without doubt the Takeda sounds awesome.
I purchased the IceBox (long wait period lol) and did the installation,extremely happy with it and no issues so far, I can definitely feel the difference but it does not sound as great as the Takeda.
I am not trying to knock the Takeda or justify purchasing an expensive IceBox, just sharing my personal experience with the products. Others may have a different experience.
However, as someone who went from stock to Takeda and back to stock,then from stock to Ct IceBox, allow me to share my experience. When I initially installed the Takeda it was during the Spring, it felt as if I gained some power on the low end but the car would stutter ever so slightly just before redline. Also, as the temperature went up the car seemed to lose power overall (heat soak??)
The second issue that I had with the Takeda started after I installed the HFPC, it would trigger a CEL (running rich). It was after this that I changed back to the stock intake,all my issues disappeared.
Without doubt the Takeda sounds awesome.
I purchased the IceBox (long wait period lol) and did the installation,extremely happy with it and no issues so far, I can definitely feel the difference but it does not sound as great as the Takeda.
I am not trying to knock the Takeda or justify purchasing an expensive IceBox, just sharing my personal experience with the products. Others may have a different experience.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 124
Likes: 31
From: Connecticut
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,448
Likes: 673
From: Ontario Canada
Thanks for sharing the experience. I'm pairing mine with the xlr8 v2 J pipe and catback exhaust. I read elsewhere that perhaps the premature shifting was caused by not having a free flowing exhaust system to expel the gases as fast as they were coming in from the intake. Not sure if that's true but on another thread the guy only had the Takeda and no other mods. Did you have anything besides the Takeda and HFPC?
J engines are known to be susceptible to heat soak,I feel that anything you can do to minimize this will help with performance.
I should also mention that the IceBox has a much larger and less restrictive air flow tube than the stock system. The stock air tube (resonator) set up that remains in place when installing the Takeda will supply some cool air to the engine compartment,however when mixed under the hood with the already high temp will not have the same effect as a true CAI.
Last edited by KarKraze; Apr 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Space Coast, FL
look into the ultimate cooling mod with the 3G TL's. You basically cut some holes into the cowl to let hot air out of the engine bay. I wonder if we can put in a slightly lower t-stat to keep the engine running 10C colder! Or we could hot-rod it and just drill a hole or 2 in the t-stat...
Heatsoak has been an enemy of the J-series engine. The intake from the factory is plastic since it doesn't transfer that much energy to the air compared to the aluminum intakes.
IMO the stock intake is better than a short ram, esp with the resonator removed.
Heatsoak has been an enemy of the J-series engine. The intake from the factory is plastic since it doesn't transfer that much energy to the air compared to the aluminum intakes.
IMO the stock intake is better than a short ram, esp with the resonator removed.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 606
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look into the ultimate cooling mod with the 3G TL's. You basically cut some holes into the cowl to let hot air out of the engine bay. I wonder if we can put in a slightly lower t-stat to keep the engine running 10C colder! Or we could hot-rod it and just drill a hole or 2 in the t-stat...
Heatsoak has been an enemy of the J-series engine. The intake from the factory is plastic since it doesn't transfer that much energy to the air compared to the aluminum intakes.
IMO the stock intake is better than a short ram, esp with the resonator removed.
Heatsoak has been an enemy of the J-series engine. The intake from the factory is plastic since it doesn't transfer that much energy to the air compared to the aluminum intakes.
IMO the stock intake is better than a short ram, esp with the resonator removed.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 124
Likes: 31
From: Connecticut
look into the ultimate cooling mod with the 3G TL's. You basically cut some holes into the cowl to let hot air out of the engine bay. I wonder if we can put in a slightly lower t-stat to keep the engine running 10C colder! Or we could hot-rod it and just drill a hole or 2 in the t-stat...
Heatsoak has been an enemy of the J-series engine. The intake from the factory is plastic since it doesn't transfer that much energy to the air compared to the aluminum intakes.
IMO the stock intake is better than a short ram, esp with the resonator removed.
Heatsoak has been an enemy of the J-series engine. The intake from the factory is plastic since it doesn't transfer that much energy to the air compared to the aluminum intakes.
IMO the stock intake is better than a short ram, esp with the resonator removed.
I just read the "ultimate cooling mod" thread for the 3G and that's a very interesting. I would never do that to my car though lol but it clearly works in reducing ambient temperatures. Any less drastic ways to do this on a 4G that anyone knows of and I am game!
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2015
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From: Connecticut
After all this information I am probably going to use the Takeda (since I already bought it) and order the icebox. Ill just keep the Takeda in until the CAI comes in and sell the SRI on the market. Numbers do not lie and considering it is a luxury car I would prefer to buy the best performing parts for the vehicle and in the case of the intakes it is pretty unanimous that the Icebox is the best option of the 3 available. If I am overlooking any other CAI options please inform me, but I believe for the 4G SH-AWD the CT-Engineering is the only option.
the ideal intake would be to keep the filter near the throttle body and have the piping extend outside of the bumper.
which the icebox does nicely.
however; if you cant wait or want a different diy option, you can buy Airaids 4 inch DIY intake and put together the tubing yourself.
https://www.airaid.com/U-Build-It_intake_systems.aspx
which the icebox does nicely.
however; if you cant wait or want a different diy option, you can buy Airaids 4 inch DIY intake and put together the tubing yourself.
https://www.airaid.com/U-Build-It_intake_systems.aspx
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 124
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From: Connecticut
the ideal intake would be to keep the filter near the throttle body and have the piping extend outside of the bumper.
which the icebox does nicely.
however; if you cant wait or want a different diy option, you can buy Airaids 4 inch DIY intake and put together the tubing yourself.
https://www.airaid.com/U-Build-It_intake_systems.aspx
which the icebox does nicely.
however; if you cant wait or want a different diy option, you can buy Airaids 4 inch DIY intake and put together the tubing yourself.
https://www.airaid.com/U-Build-It_intake_systems.aspx
Hmmmm.. very interesting how many 4G guys have done this? and is it effective to your knowledge (or as effective as the IB?)
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Instructor
Joined: Feb 2015
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From: Connecticut
Well, After placing my order for the CT Icebox I got a PM from a current member who has one laying around that he never installed. Looks like I lucked out! I canceled my order on the Icebox and sent back the Takeda and am just waiting on my Icebox to come in. Looks like I am getting what I originally wanted after all!
Well, After placing my order for the CT Icebox I got a PM from a current member who has one laying around that he never installed. Looks like I lucked out! I canceled my order on the Icebox and sent back the Takeda and am just waiting on my Icebox to come in. Looks like I am getting what I originally wanted after all!
I'm sure you'll be pleased with the results, but it sounds like you have no other mods done yet. If so, then I'm not sure if this mod will knock your socks off. You might get some increase in low end, but I think the best mod that you can do would be a jpipe mod that is about half the cost of the CTE icebox. I think the icebox needs to be paired with some other upgrade for you to really feel a major difference. If not, then it'll be a minor change leading to maybe a post about how it wasn't not worth it.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2015
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From: Connecticut
I'm sure you'll be pleased with the results, but it sounds like you have no other mods done yet. If so, then I'm not sure if this mod will knock your socks off. You might get some increase in low end, but I think the best mod that you can do would be a jpipe mod that is about half the cost of the CTE icebox. I think the icebox needs to be paired with some other upgrade for you to really feel a major difference. If not, then it'll be a minor change leading to maybe a post about how it wasn't not worth it.
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From: Connecticut
It was a process though! First I put a WTB on the black market for the Icebox after hearing a long wait time then I ordered the Takeda prematurely. After I ordered the Takeda I did research and found that the Icebox is clearly the best (and most expensive) option so I put an order for the icebox through XLR8. I was planning on using the Takeda until the icebox came in then sell the Takeda. A day after I put in the order through XLR8 I get a PM that someone has an icebox that they never installed and it's just sitting at their office. So I sent back the Takeda and canceled my order for the icebox and bought the icebox from a fellow acurazine member.
XLR8 is tallying up the extra money I spent and crediting me installation costs because it basically equals what they owe me for the return and canceled order.
It was a pain in my ass (and I'm sure XLR8's too lol) but in the end I got what I wanted and XLR8 accommodated me. I have to say I'm lucky to be so close to their shop because their customer service and quality of work is second to none. You truly get what you pay for with them.
XLR8 is tallying up the extra money I spent and crediting me installation costs because it basically equals what they owe me for the return and canceled order.
It was a pain in my ass (and I'm sure XLR8's too lol) but in the end I got what I wanted and XLR8 accommodated me. I have to say I'm lucky to be so close to their shop because their customer service and quality of work is second to none. You truly get what you pay for with them.
Advanced
Joined: Jul 2013
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From: NOVA/DC/Annapolis
wish i lived close to them ughhh. Still holding off on my XLR8 catback system (round tips) until i have some extra funds laying around or if magically a deal/promo comes up
Former Sponsor
Joined: May 2010
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From: Branford, CT
Peter, thank you for the positive feedback! We look forward to seeing you later this week.
If you shoot me a PM with your vehicle info and zip, I'll see what I can do on shipping cost! Our exhausts are made to order, so chances are low there will be a promo code or deal. We don't have the need to clear any of them out of inventory.
If you shoot me a PM with your vehicle info and zip, I'll see what I can do on shipping cost! Our exhausts are made to order, so chances are low there will be a promo code or deal. We don't have the need to clear any of them out of inventory.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Oct 2008
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I've got the Takeda and I love it, mind you I don't live in a really warm climate, so that probably helps. But I love how you don't hear it unless you really give it some throttle, and when you do give it some throttle what a beautiful sound it makes. 
or even the icebox
or even a resonator delete.
Three Wheelin'
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You can draw comparisons on just about anything, so I fail to see the point of your post.
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I think you misread the post; he's one of the more knowledgeable folks on the forums and was just trying to make a joke hence the tomato smiley
Three Wheelin'
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Intermediate
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From: Boston, MA
So it seems like the ice box is the best! I cant wait till I get one but still trying to decide what should I get first. J-pipe, xlr8 V2 J pipe, or xlr8 cat back. recently got my TL so will need suspension as well so much to do..
Former Sponsor
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From: Branford, CT
The J-Pipe nets you the most power, so that's the one I would personally do first. You might want to save up and do both catback and J-Pipe at the same time to save on labor though. Suspension would definitely be next right after that though!
Intermediate
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From: Boston, MA
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