Since I bought my 10 TL over a year ago I've been waiting when i had sufficient funds to start with some mods. I was about to pull the trigger on the atlp catback(FWD version) when my brother asked me "do you want more performance first or minimal performance and great sound?" So i thought about it for the past few days and just bought a takeda sri, atlp J-pipe, and atlp hi flow cat. Not planning on being a race car wanna be or anything, just wanted the extra power. Plan on getting the exhaust in April for my bday. I'd get it sooner but with a family we enlisted gents dont make the money our jobs are worthy of. Plus I have the means to install myself so more savings which makes the wife a hell of a lot happier! lol thanks to all the peeps here that have made all the threads that i was able to research to help me. Appreciate it.

 

dont think the SRI helped you.

 

on the tekeda website it says "guarentee 14hp/14 torque." i'm sure i'll never know unless dyno'd but that will never happen. Majority of all intakes improve performance,...most of the time that's a fact but not always.

 

from the factory, your 4G TL had a true cold air system.

but at least the SRI makes a pretty noise at WOT.

 

I was aware it had a mediocre cold air intake. But "true" is not the appropriate terminology in my opinion. If you remove the tube directly infront/below the filter you will see how constricted the size of it is which does not offer the ideal cold air intake performance, if you removed the stock filter and put in say a higher flow such as k&n which i currently have then you increase the performance of said factory intake...not by an incredible amount but you get better air flow and barely noticeable sound difference. No wear near a "true" cold air intake but i give them a solid "B" for effort. it already sounds pretty decent to me but the takeda is more my cup of tea.

 

i say system, because thats what it is. a true cold air system.
its still bringing in colder air than the SRI.

now some can argue that while moving the SRI will provide cooler air. but stationary, the SRI is sucking up that hot air from the engine.


ALSO, on the 3rd gen TL, the air filter was not the restriction.the throttle body is.
so adding a K&N filter had no effect on the 3G TL.

they did increase the size of the Throttle body for the 4th gen tho.

 

Regardless of stock being true cold air intake why would you throw away 2xx for a hot air intake? Might as well wait and see if CT releases their ice box.

 

hot air intake? Not intending to be rude or anything but this is a common myth upon the mechanical world I work in. A true cold air intake takes the air from either the wheel well or slightly to the right of it and behind the bumper,...now metal heats up fast when around hot temperatures. "cold" air coming from a cold air intake actually warms up significantly through the metal piping before entering the combustion chamber. Granted air coming from a true cold air intake is cooler than a short ram,....but the difference is less than 20 degrees on average depending on which intake systems are being compared. on our 12 cylinder generators we use on the aircraft have a short ram type of intake,...the filter is exposed and exaclty 19 inches away from the combustion chamber. this equipment is used in the hot phoenix desert where temps on the flightline are never lower than 125 degrees. cold air intakes are not exactly what people believe them to be. the air always warms up very quickly through the average engine bay temp of around 180 degrees. believe what you want, research can be found to support both types of systems better than each other, but experience and actual temp readings you do yourself as i have to do a few times of the year on our engines makes me always prefer the short ram intake vs cold air on all my vehicles. i've always preferred richer fuel/air ratio over a leaner ratio. you can put up any argument you want and back it by any research you find on the net but i ask you to perform your own tests/readings and see if your convinced. the only cold air intake i've used was a k&n one on an 06 is350. worked wonderful but the temp readings from the filter to the entrance of the combustion chamber was a 13 degree difference,...nothing to be worried about since most v6 combustion chambers are anywhere from 190 to 270 degrees. this is all based on only MY experience/readings/tests done for the past 15 years as a jet engine/diesel engine mechanic, nothing done outside with better equipment than my shop so results can vary.

 

i forgot to mention and would like to add, once you put a very high flowing air intake along with hi flow cat or test pipe, j-pipe, exhaust system, etc. you should always get the car tuned. make sure you change the computer settings to change the amount of fuel going through the atomizer for combustion,...the more air flow the more fuel you need. You car will run great without the tune,...but not at the full potential of the mods you put on. granted it's only around 5-15 more hp by doing this but the engine burns the fuel/air mixture more efficient. If anyone is from the valley here in AZ i have all the necessary equipment to perform this task and pretty much anything else with exception to engine hoist. I'll do any maintenance for free so you'll potentially save hundreds or even thousands on labor. ive been working on engines/autos since i was 11 being my fathers apprentice in his restoration shop back in houston so i can honestly say i know what the hell i'm doing but if i ever come across a task i don't know i contact the right people before proceeding.

 

^too bad there isnt a tune available for our cars.


there is a new ECU available.
the J&R ECU which was developed for the 3rd gen TL, but can be easily ported over to the 4th Gen.

N/A TL's with full bolt ons gained 25-30hp with this new ECU.

 

I wasn't aware of this. Now I am, lol. thanks abunch. I'm gonna have to bust out the electronics and see if i can get into the computer settings a different way and tinker around a bit.

 

the reason why we had to have a "piggy back" ECU is because the STOCK ECU will reset back to stock once you change parameters.
With this new ECU in place, you can retain your luxury options while changing engine parameters.
All, if not most Honda 6 cylinder Engines are hard to tune.
but this is a game changer.
Props to Rodney for making this happen

Check this link to learn more about the J&R ECU.
http://ww.tl.acurazine.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=806456

 

after an entire night of trying to see what i could do all i have been able to come up with is to install an AFC(air fuel controller) so that it receives a voltage that would normally tell the computer how much fuel to spray but the afc will say no sir this is how much voltage i'm sending so you can adjust the spray amount. basically tricking the computer into the right amount of fuel based on the increased air flow. i made a call to import powerhouse here in phoenix and they said they'd see what they can do for the AFC. if they have one that will be compatible with the 4th gen or if they can make one. I'm almost certain any AFC will do but checking with the honda/acura experts on this one.

 

You'd probably be better off with something tweaking the MAF sensor. I spent $300 worth of dyno tuning time on my S2000 fully bolted to get 5 whp across the powerband with a good tuner and an Apexi VAFC. I was underwhelmed needless to say.

 

Ya i beginning to think i won't be able to do it. I'm not wanting this to gain power, i'm extremely OCD and want the correct air/fuel mixture. It'll always bother me if i can't get it perfect,...even though the car will run pretty close to perfect without it...kinda a waste of time lol

 

Which I stated earlier

 

Call the Honda running a bit on the rich side an insurance policy on a 100k trouble free engine at the expense of a little bit of power and mpg.

 

rub it in,...hahaha

like i stated earlier,...its not about the power gain. I'm OCD like no other. Everything I do and have must be perfect. When I do maintenance it's got to be organized, clean, perfect in every aspect. I've already said it twice that it will run great without adjusting the fuel amount to the atomizer but not perfect, which i like to have. If they can't find an AFC for me to piggy back, then i'll be ok with it knowing i tried to meet my high quality measures but couldn't pull it off. To each his own.

P.S. I highly doubt theres an engine out there that has earned the title "trouble free." perhaps im ignorant on this matter.

 

270k on my 99 TL @ trade in. 2nd timing belt and 2nd trans. Normal oil and maintenance. Still got 4500 for it in trade in 07 with the clear coat wearing away. You take care of these motors, they run forever.

 

wow... first off, to the OP... some of the most intellectual conversation in the 4G performance section i have ever seen


So, going back to the original talks... about the SRI vs. a Cold Air Intake

I had AEM Cold Air Intakes on both my 3Gs, and the Takeda SRI on my last 4G...

When i installed the Takeda on WDP 4G.. i noticed incredible low end power gains, but loss of top end power... when i traded in the car, i sold my Takeda intake.

I got another 4G, and swore i wasn't going to get another intake, because i felt the Takeda SRI was a "rip-off" and only tricked you into feeling "more power"... However, it was an incredible noise maker!! Only recently, did I realize that my WDP 4G was the only TL i ever had, without an exhaust..

Now that I have another 4G, with the XLR8 J-Pipe, HFC and Catback... i have increased my air flow from the engine backwards... the addition of a wider intake (SRI or CAI) will increase air flow into the combustion chamber.. thus, hopefully giving me the power i want, and in conjunction with the exhaust upgrades... give better results than on an OEM exhaust

Somebody else on the forum (i think jnc2000) mentioned was actually testing air temps at the filter vs exterior, and the delta wasnt that bad.

The points you made above, combined with my recent exhaust upgrades and knowledge of engines, i decided to pick up another Takeda intake and give it a 2nd try.

I will install next week, and see if this time i am convinced..


GREAT conversation though!! Thamac, are you a Military man?

 

^ i agree it was very fun talking with this gentleman

 

were you gentle to the car?

I have an 03 CL-S 5AT... about 90k, original engine/transmission... still solid as a rock, but its the wifey's car... I seldom drive it, because I have a heavy foot.. and i am worried that i will rip her transmission apart in an hour

She had the recall done on the car when it was practically brand new (upgraded cooling jets)... and her CL-S was towards the end of the production cycle that model year, so some of the concerns were already addressed from the factory.

my friend has an 01 CL-S 5AT... 240k.... 4th transmission, and 2nd set of motor mounts, but still the original engine... only thing was, his crankshaft snapped on him

 

he definitely some hope in my mind that, this time around, the Takeda SRI will be more impactful on my car's performance

if you check all my other posts this year, i was anti-takeda SRI after my last disappointing trial with it.

 

So now im really on the fence with the SRI lol. I was gonna get it, but then the lack of high end was a bit of a turn off. I swapped in a K&N and the sound has gotten a lil more throaty, but def nothing compared to an SRI/CAI sound.

 

honestly, I kinda miss the low end. but if i do shoot for another intake i'm gonna give k&n typhoon a try. the only real downside of takeda to me is the loss of top end. our cars need to be in high rev(vtec range) to use full power. i loved the sound of the takeda and I was once for it but after i put back the stock box.. i'm not sure if i can go with takeda again. definitely miss the low end tho

 

Thamac...since you are a knowledgeable guy, i want to ask you some more questions

Throttle Body Spacers.... P2R makes one for our car.. I have had them on all my 3Gs, and quite frankly, had no real way of gauging any power gains... i did alot of dynos, but usually i would do multiple mods at a time

The theory behind a TBS, is that many of them will create a vortex in the air... however, since our cars are not direct injection, that air vortex is lost once the air is dispersed into the runners.

The other theory, is decreased throttle body temperatures.. which, i can see being true.. but is it really going to impact performance that much? if you lower the TB temp by about 3-4 degrees?

The P2R spacer, doesnt vortex the air,since its a smooth interior... so its only claim can be to lower the intake temps....


whats your take on this?

 

Did you forget our cars (AT) don't rev as high with the SRI, dunno if the same applies to MT?

 

I thought TB spacers increase the vacuum going into the TB? that's y it increases power.

 

i am hoping that my exhaust system helps counteract some of that loss of top end

I did the same thing, removed by Takeda, and was blown away by how much top end power i was losing..

Remember, the 4G (at least the J37A4 motor) has VTEC on both the intake AND exhaust valves.. where as VTEC used to be only available on one or the other... from my understanding, prior TLs and the FWD 4G, the VTEC will only adjust intake valves... Remember, VTEC is controlled by engine RPM.. so when you were at higher end RPMs, the intake valves adjusted for optimal performance, but since you altered the intake (length and air volume), could be the reason for decreased top-end performance.

I know its completely irrelevant to the discussion of the SRI, but I am wondering if since VTEC is finally a balanced approach on the J37A4 motor, maybe if i "balance" my increased air intake, with increased air expulsion from the exhaust, i wont trade off top end with low end

just a wild thought... i am kind of talking out of my ass... i hope this makes sense to some people.. i am, no way, any type of engineering or super whiz with engines... just using logic to justify myself purchasing the Takeda intake again

 

i definitely noticed that on my last 4G....i could barely redline with the Takeda intake, but once removed, i was able to push redline.

I have no idea why this was the case, but it was true. maybe somebody can shed some light on this

the only thing is, this time around, i have a really high flowing full exhaust system.. i am hoping it makes some kind of difference.. i got a sweet deal on a Takeda intake, so if it doesnt work out, I can always sell it again.

I will do the install myself, so nothing will be wasted but my time.. but maybe i can contribute more knowledge to the ongoing debate about the Takeda intake really being worth the investment

 

^it couldnt hurt to try, but since you explained that both intake and exhaust lift when vtec engages.....I think you're going to have to port and polish the manifold and its runners to see gains.

the icebox intake system is the IDEAL intake.
i still think the SRI is a waste of time. but again, it couldnt hurt to try.

it would be interesting to find out what the limiting factor on the intake side is.
whether it be the air filter or the throttle body.
if these two are at optimum, I would then look into the manifold.

 

^ by the time CT-E releases their IceBox intake, i will probably have a 5G TL...

i love their products, but I am sorry... they move at the speed of a slug. the ice box has been under R&D and ready for production for like 2 years.... same for the 4G supercharger... and i am sure, it is no where near ready for public purchase yet

 

I had full exhaust (j-pipe/race pipe/catback/p2r tbs) with the takeda and i wasn't able to hit redline. Maybe it'll be different with the j37 Al. Def let me know what you come up with. If you don't mind me asking how much did you pick up another one for?

 

tried to ask rob of flynnwood for some updates but got no response. they should release the ice box and keep the supercharger in R&D cause I'm sure they're not tweaking stuff on the ice box. more so the supercharger

 

I'm curious to know if there is an improvement with full exhaust but I fear it'll only be more of the same :\ . Let me know what happens Alan!

 

so if the air filter and throttle body are not the restricting factor..........port and polish the manifold and its runners!!!!!!!!

 

^ too much effort for me

the best thing you can do to really increase low end tq, is have a plenum spacer.. i know with the 3G, it was near impossible because of hood clearance... but on the 2G CL/TL.. people were using plenum spacers and saw huge increase in power

 

Remember that the intake mani on the new J motors is polycarbonate, not the old aluminum ones like the 2G. The J32A2 actually gets a decent power bump by ditching it's manifold altogether, even if the spacers/power plenums were on, and using the J37 intake mani.

You can still P&P the lower runners, but options on plenums and p&p for the upper intake mani are eliminated with it being a one piece polycarbonate unit now.

I wondered about the heat soak being a bit different as well - obviously the aluminum cast moldied manifolds are going to transfer heat, but how much transfer is really going into the poly manifold, and then on to the aluminum throttle body?

I have the Takeda on my 09 SH-AWD. It's a noisemaker, and does seem to hurt high end in favor of a little low grunt and more noise. I have the PCDs pre-ordered and will be puchasing pulleys, the P2R spacers, the longtube J pipe, polished runners, and an exhaust, and just doing a mass install. I figure it could be a 50whp upgrade across the board, and hopefully closer to 60 than 50.

On a positive note, as of today, the beast is paid off though, so I've got a 22k mile CPO SH-AWD car with lots of life and warranty left in it to start putting that $700 a month under the hood.

 

I bet PCD's would do wonders for my FWD 4g. Maybe til then I'll get another intake to try.

 

Hi I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I think a cold air intake, and exhaust system is fine, but from my experience you wouldn't feel that much HP except at high RPM. a few years ago I had a 98 accord and I did a lot of upgrades. I ended up loosing some low end torque but I gained about 15 HP at high RPM. upgrading your ECU program is one of the best ways to get a better increase across your power band. the only bad thing is the TL is already not that fuel efficient in the City, so the upgrades might hurt your fuel economy.