Pete2010

I wouldn't worry so much about the one-off issue that graphicguy reported. There are issues with all cars out there, and thus far his is the only one to have that issue (that we know of). You could have that random problem with anything you buy, from low to highend.

The 5's are a great deal, and I'm not a fan of the new style, so that would be a good option, but still more $$ than the TL...

docboy

^I agree with petec2010.

Every make has problems. Some makes are more prone to problems than others (ie. BMW, VW/Audi).

Graphicguy's unfortunate problem is likely a random, albeit unacceptable, occurrence.

Statistically Acura's reliability hx is among the best, though it takes just 1 defect to screw someone over.

smarty666

Very very true. I'm a clear example of this exactly. Had 2006 TL for 2 years with absolutely no problems what so ever. Liked it so much that when I returned it got a 2008 TL. The second TL has been nothing but one problem right from the get go. I really think it comes down to what day of the week/time of day your car is put together at the assembly plant. Also, while not always the case, I have noticed a difference from the Japanese vehicles 100% done in Japan to the ones built and assembled here in the States. The TSX on avg has a lot less problems then the TL does, specifically in regards to squeak/rattles, etc compared to the US made TL.

pg2373

I understand that all manufacturers have problems. I don't expect to get a vehicle that doesn't have problems. I don't have much an issue with AOA's stance with graphicguy. All dealerships treat you like crap once they get their money. Main issue is that I can't have a vehicle that will literally break down while travelling at any speed much less at 70mph with which graphicguy was going.

Hacura

Japan built FTW!

winstrolvtec

You are never guaranteed anything with regards to reliability but if it is a main priority you go with reputation and make the better bet. That doesn't mean you can't lose, it only means you have a better chance of stuff not happening.

PetesTL

Yup. Cars are machines. Machines can break down. People make machines. People make errors. Shit happens. In the end, you'll have better odds going with the more reputable company. With that being said, I just don't know why more people don't lease. I haven't bought a car in more than 20 years. Unless you own a bona-fide vintage or a rare collectable automobile, owning a car is always a losing proposition. I always lease my cars....besides the financial and tax benefits, I walk away after 3 years knowing that I won't have to put up with any of the repair crap.

As a good friend of mine always says, "....If it flies, floats, drives, or f**ks, rent it."

Pete2010

Normally I would agree, but only if I owned my own business for the tax advantage.

The last car I owned (before my current one) was a 1996 Grand Am, had it payed off and lived without a car payment for quite a while. I only payed maybe 500 a year in maintenance of out of warranty items. Then when I got a job that paid much better I started leasing, and did that for about 8 years with 3 cars... Living without a car payment was pretty nice, I'm glad I bought this one, and in two years or so once I pay it off, I'm going to then just bank that payment every month. (Or put it towards a S2000 )

Kingmeow

Would a lease be smart if you drive a lot, say 20,000+ miles in year?

Before my TL I had a Maxima that I purchased new right out from the get go and it was pretty much probblem free for 12 years. Talk about no car payment for 12 years!!!!

Pete2010

My father-in-law owns his own company and drives A LOT. He always leases his car for 3 years and usually goes over on his lease by a very significant amount. He routinly puts on 25-30k miles a year on his leases. But he's an accountant, and he keeps doing it, so I'm assuming that it must be a good tax benefit, even going over on his lease.

jasonwdp10

Well the reason(s) i'm not leasing is because:
#1 I work out on the field and I need to drive all over LA. This unfortunately is also the reason why I don't want stick shift. I've driven stick shift before, I was forced to learn how to drive an 89 accord stick shift for a week when my 96 accord broke down years ago and was in the shop.

#2 I'm planning on giving the car to my mom after i pay it off. Kind of a bday gift. Yeah it's a lot of money, but she's my mom. All i'm hoping is that she'll help me a bit with the down pmt for my next car.

#3 I'm not self employed and I do not want to play the audit lottery. Lease payments should only be deducted if the vehicle was used for business purposes.

smarty666

Even though in the long run, if you decide to buy the car out, your spending more money with leasing, after 30 years of buying GM products outright and switching to Japanese luxury divisions, I always lease my cars for 3-4 years. I find its a great trial period to see if there are going to be potential problems with the cars.

I had a two year lease on my 06 TL which was an absolutely wonderful car and had absolutely no problems with it the entire time I had it. MY three year lease on my current 08 TL is another story. Had stuff not working/problems right from day of delivery from the factory. Have had nightmare rattle/clicking issues with my 08 TL beyond the ridiculous, had the steering gear box replaced at 10k miles due to a power steering fluid leak, etc etc etc. Found out from the techs at my two local Acura dealers that suffice it to say, with all my problems, my car was not put together right at the factory.

Luckily for me, Acura fixed almost all my issues, except for continued rattle/squeaks which would require ripping apart half the car and installing foam and insulation to correct, which I would never want them to do, most likely causing other problems.

Suffice it to say, I'm thankful I'm leasing this 08 and despite the fact the buyout is great and I really like the car since everything was fixed, having a the steering gear box replaced at 10k miles has put a terrible bad gut feeling about this car if I keep it. I'm going to be returning it at the end of the lease but this would not keep me from leasing or buying another Acura because I remember back to how pleasant my 06 was and that with every 100 cars produced by even the most reliable, well reputable company, 1 or 2 cars for every 100 produced, have problems or are not put together right! I'm a clear cut example of this.

One thing though is, I really wish Acura would get these rattles/squeaks in the TL under control. There are people on here having the same kind of rattle issues with their 4G that I have with my 3G. These cars are way to much money to be dealing with these minor fit/finish issues. In the 3.5 years I had my FX35, which by the way, had ones of the most firm/jarring rides I have ever seen, next to riding in a Jeep, there was never once a rattle/squeak or any noise issue, which one would expect when the vehicle is constantly jarring around which you would think would loosen something up!

I've noticed that there are less people complaining about the RL and TSX (both made 100% in Japan) in regards to rattle/squeak issues compared with the TL and MDX/RDX made and assembled here and in Canada.

SpicyMikey

My 2 cents on this tangent discussion on leases; If you're planning to buy a new car every 3-4 years, then a lease can make more sense over a purchase. Less risk in terms of getting hurt on resale since the residual is set up front. If the economy tanks, or you get in a significant accident and it gets on CarFax, you don't have to worry about losing your shirt in 3 years trying to sell it for 20% of what you paid for it. On the other, it's a contract and you are committed. If your predictable horizon is not that long, or your credit stinks, leasing is not a good idea.

if you own a company and can expense the payments as a writeoff, then more argument for leasing. However, even with a purchase you can setup some clever accounting to have your company "rent" the car from you for a fixed amount and then write off those payments.

So which is cheapest. Answer: it depends on your circumstances from above.

Which is cheapest. Neither. Buy and hold is obviously still the least expensive. Buy a good car, take care of it, and hold it for 6-8 years. By far the most cost effective plan.

StonedCL

iTrader: (1)

Some of those cars that you looked at where in the M37 price range.. And the M37 interior is one of the nicest out there and you can get a RWD with nav for about 50K I know the AWD M37X with nav is 52K but we do not order RWD g's or M's

smarty666

I have to say, I was just at the NY Autoshow and the car that impressed me the most was the M37 that Infiniti had. It had some of the most comfortable front and rear seats I have ever sat in. The interior is the nicest one Infiniti has ever produced and I think with this interior they have finally reach the level of Acura, Lexus, BMW, and MB in regards to interior quality. I think the King of this though is still Audi. Just my two cents though and highly subjective of course but I don't have any brand loyalty so I try to make objective comparisons. I haven't test drive a M37 yet but sometime this year I will at my local Infiniti dealer.

My local Infiniti dealers here in NJ don't even order any Infiniti products with just RWD! The only ones that just have RWD are the loaner cars the dealerships use in the service department. Every G, EX, FX, QX, M always has a X after the name on the trunk so you don't have any choice in this area but to get AWD. I personally like it that way, my FX35 is like that and I just use the RWD all year long and then a couple of times from Dec-March I just flip on snow mode and use the AWD!

PetesTL

I had some time off this afternoon, so out of curiosity I paid a visit to my local Infiniti dealer to test drive the new M37. All the ones they had on the lot had AWD. My test drive impressions:

The good:

1. Absolutely gorgeous interior. Much better than the previous generation. The wood inlays are particularly well done and the overall presentation makes the TL's look like something from a Chevy. The guages, dials, switches all looked and felt very solid and elegant. Very minimal use of hard plastics unlike the TL.

2. Handsome exterior. From some angles, it looks kind of "bubbly" and quite "big" but it definately turns heads.

3. Comfortable ride and decent handling. Ride quality was much better than the TL (probably partly due to the 18" wheels and all-season tires on the test car). Steering felt pretty good and precise. Very quiet ride....no rattles, no squeaks, no wind noise. Roomy cabin...comparable to the TL's.

4. Lots of neat features: heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, lane departure warning system, collision-avoidance system, touchscreen hi-res NAV.

The bad:

1. Terrible throttle reponse. I'm not sure if it's because the engine or the 7-sp transmission on my test car was too new or what but off-the-line acceleration (and esp. passing) felt very sluggish....felt slower than my TL.

2. Mediocre audio. The test car had the Bose 10-speaker audio system and not the premium 16-speaker one, so maybe that explains it but the one in the test car sounded very average for a car this expensive.

3. Price: The test car had AWD, tech package and premiuim package and final price came out close to $55K.

It's obvious Infiniti went out to make the new M more luxurious and substantial than the previous generation (kind of like what Acura did with the 4G). It's a very nice car but in the end, I was somewhat disappointed in that it wasn't as responsive (and sporty) as I thought it would be. When my lease is up early next year, I'll probably lean towards the new 535i or S4.

SpicyMikey

^^^
Thanks for sharing Pete. For the first time I think I have an Infiniti on my radar. This fall I'll be looking to get rid of my RL. The RL is still not refreshed and getting old and tired inside. Don't want another.

StonedCL

iTrader: (1)

I sit in and drive ALOT of cars and Interior wise the new M has everything beat. The only car that comes close is the sc by lexus, that is the only inerior I would compare to the new M interior. The M37 is a quick car I would guess it is as fast as the SHAWD TL but not really sure yet.. The car does not feel as fast as it is cuz it is a big luxory cruiser..
I have no clue what people see in the audi interiors, nuttin special at all, my girls dad has a Q7 and the M interior is alot more inviting , and ALOT EASIER TO USE the featurs and gadgets..

YetiTL

Well I went to an Infiniti dealer yesterday and test drove the new M37X... and a G37X coupe.

While I agree with PetesTL on most point regarding the M37X I can't say I've been impressed with the car interior. Yes it is a very nice interior but to be honest, IMHO it depends if you like wood trims or not.

Personally I hate wood trims and I don't associate wood trims with luxury, only to old people's cars and the new M interior didn't wowed me as much as the 4G TL. The interior space is a little smaller than the TL, something a tall guy like me should consider. The buttons on the steering wheel are smaller so using them in winter will be quite hard (with the gloves).

The exterior is very well done, the infiniti guys and gals have done their homework very well! Very beutiful lines, all in harmony. Very different from the 4G TL.

The car felt quite slow though, even in sport mode (which I left «on» during my 15-20 minutes test drive. The steering was very good and precise though and the car manoeuvers well. It acted like a RWD which is great in itself. I enjoy my time at the wheel. I could easily live with a M37X in my driveway.

So in the end, Infiniti have a winner with this one since it's a great cruiser. It'll be quite more expensive than the 4G TL and if you want space, AWD and a quick car, wait for the M56X or the 4G TL 6MT.

Now if I could take the TL interior with the M37X exterior and RWD feel, I would be extasic!

JD23

That is absolutely correct. If one must have a new car every three years, then leasing is probably the best option. However, anyone who is constantly leasing cars could have saved a substantial amount of money long-term if he had been buying and holding for, say, at least six years per vehicle.

PsychDoc

I sat in an M37 last week and I was massively underwhelmed. I liked the interior of the previous M much better and I found that the exterior looked like a G on steroids. Long bubbly curves of sheet metal that make the car look like it has three distinct 'parts' -- the front, middle and rear. There's a lack of harmoniousness to it all and (just like the M it replaces) it looks too tall. That makes me think it's likely to lean badly in high g-force turns.

For me the deal breaker was the lack of interior room. Simply put, the TL feels substantially larger from behind the steering wheel. Even with the front seat pushed all the way back there's not enough leg room with your foot on the accelerator. To make matters worse, there's a huge center console that intrudes on your right knee with your foot on the gas pedal. For a car that's so huge from the outside, it's positively shocking that there's not more interior room. To be fair, the rear seat is particularly spacious and materials do seem to be top notch. And while I didn't drive it, it's pretty well recognized that the VQ engines were raucous and buzzy when they were 3.5 liters. At 3.7 (for a 6 cylinder) they unbearable and are certainly not the kind of powerplant you'd expect (or want) to find in a ~$55k luxury car.

I was honestly expecting a legitimate 5 series/A6/E-class figher. What I found was a 5/4ths version of the G.

Ho hum.

YetiTL

I do this kind of math for my clients who buys all kind of cars, as part of their tax planning (I work as a tax lawyers but I'm more an expert in corporate reorganizations and all that kind of stuff). As a good rule of thumb, if you plan to keep the car less than 5 years then leasing is economically advantegeous while if you plan to keep the car 5 years or more, financing become a better option. Keep in mind it's only a rule of thumb, you must still do your homeworks and do some number crunching.

Oswald Vater

Interesting thread. The lease on my 08 expires in Feb, 2011. Depending on the changes to the 2011 TL, I have the choice of either buying the 08, trade for an 11 or just extend the lease until the 2012's come out. TL is my first choice (I've leased 3 in a row) but may jump ship if something else attracts my attention or I can get a better deal elsewhere. Thanks for all the comparisons and pricing info - keep em' coming!

graphicguy

Some mentioned above regarding my issues with my TL.

Regardless of what I went through, I do believe my issue was a rarity and should not dissuade anyone from buying a TL.

I've stated this in the thread I started, but I kind of look at the situation as one of no matter how well a car is engineered, no matter how much testing is done, no matter how carefully a car is built, every once in a while, one will roll off the assembly line that just has some glitch(es) that weren't found.

I truly believe mine was one of those. And, if you go to ebay motors and, just as an example, look at the '09 BMW 3 series listings, you'll see some 3s that suffer the same fate. Some cars that just didn't come together right, for who knows what reason(s), and are for sale (relatively) cheap after being totally vetted for problems and fixed.

jasonwdp10

So.. I ended up getting the base model w/ tech!

Just got it today and I love the ride. It's much quieter than the SHAWD but still quite "compliant" I do miss the silver stitching, fat steering wheel, and snug(er) seats, but imo, the ride quality / road noise of the base model make up for it. I haven't tested the limits of the base models handling, but that's where i felt i'd be overpaying for the SHAWD model. I don't really go to the "twistys" or any canyon roads so the base model handles fine. I haven't had much, if any wheelspin, but i can see it happening from time to time.

Thanks for the input guys. I really appreciate the help.

jasonwdp10

Acceleration feels better btw. I don't need to rev it past 3k to really get it moving. It doesn't seem to rev as freely as the 3.7L, but feels like it has more low end because for the whole day, i've kept it under 3k rpm and i've been ahead of traffic.

erick3

anyone know of specs for the 2011 yet? i hear audi just released their order guides for their A4's last night

graphicguy

AS is typical of Honda/Acura, we probably won't know what the '11s have on tap for the changes between model years until they're rolling into the dealer's lots. I wouldn't expect many until the typical mid cycle refresh, which should happen in 2012.

Trying to remember, but I don't think the 2011s will hit the Acura stores until sometime in August....maybe July?