Maybe Leaving Acura for Infiniti
01-08-2012, 12:18 AM
#321
I accept what people did and it's not that I doubt anybody. What I doubt is there is a select group of people who would cross-shop the 528 and TL and walk away with the TL without including the rest of the mid-size entry luxury segment.
It follows then, there must be a group of people who would cross shop the G, CTS, Saab, etc. with the 528 and then buy the G, CTS, etc.
The 535 is a few thousand more and those looking at $45ish as their cap would probably not seriously consider the 535.
It follows then, there must be a group of people who would cross shop the G, CTS, Saab, etc. with the 528 and then buy the G, CTS, etc.
The 535 is a few thousand more and those looking at $45ish as their cap would probably not seriously consider the 535.
If the TL gets some coss shop consideration and the comparison can be made with it so can it be made with other cars that share in those characteristics.
This is not a double standard, I know many think it is only TL owner bias but I would go as far to say the CTS probably gets cross shopped with 5 (etc) even more than the TL does. There price points are a little higher, they do offer RWD and have the CTS-V which rivals the M5 in many ways and is often compared together.
I agree about not looking at a 535 or higher (etc) if the cap is $45k but no one is suggesting there has to necessarily be a cap or that it is even $45k. Some look at the menu left to right, others look right to left.
Some look at their cap or budget and see what applies and go from there but others narrow down what it is they want more specifically and look at all of the various levels of that product from the mainstream to the lower end luxury or higher end luxury, etc and decide which one not only best suites them but also which is the best value proposirion for what one is mostly looking for.
Those are loaded up, and I'm sure there are a range of prices. But that's the point, comparing the $60K BMW against a $45K TL and buying the TL.
It's like walking into a Bentley dealership and buying a Sonota. I'm sure people do it, but I can't see this "the standard" fare.
It's like walking into a Bentley dealership and buying a Sonota. I'm sure people do it, but I can't see this "the standard" fare.
And let's be realistic here, that example is a stretch compared to what we are talking about. The TL pricing at least ends where the 5 starts and the two are not as distant. A TL SH and 535ix (even 535i) actually do have a lot in common when you exclude price and luxury level.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 01-08-2012 at 12:26 AM.
01-08-2012, 12:18 AM
#322
Burning Brakes
Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus have built a brand reputation. So are you suggesting buyers of these marquees are nitwits, while buyers of Acura products are informed and intelligent?
01-08-2012, 03:00 AM
#323
I would think a large percentage of TL drivers cannot afford the $12K or 30% price spread between the base & top TL & could not afford a typical 528. Without interest on a 48 month loan it would cost $250 a month just to retire the principle on the spread between a Base & Advance.
You wrongly assume that the vast majority of people stretch their budget to the max when they buy a car.....reality is they don't.....some, many do but not the vast majority...the entire country is not California or New York!!
don't think a 535 would be a good fit unless it was special ordered stripped from Germany. Most of the eleven 535's in my local dealers inventory start around $59/60K going up to $72K or at least $230 more a month then a SH-AWD or $480 an month over the base not including interest.
I believe the qualifier, Top TL model, is pretty much always left out for just plain TL creating the illusion "that anyone who can comfortably afford a TL" can buy a 528
There are about 30 regulars & maybe a dozen high count posters, most of which, if not all are in this thread. This does not IMHO really create much of a base to generalize about the overall TL shopping/buying decision process.
accept what people did and it's not that I doubt anybody. What I doubt is there is a select group of people who would cross-shop the 528 and TL and walk away with the TL without including the rest of the mid-size entry luxury segment.
It follows then, there must be a group of people who would cross shop the G, CTS, Saab, etc. with the 528 and then buy the G, CTS, etc.
It follows then, there must be a group of people who would cross shop the G, CTS, Saab, etc. with the 528 and then buy the G, CTS, etc.
It's like walking into a Bentley dealership and buying a Sonota. I'm sure people do it, but I can't see this "the standard" fare.
Comparing the switch from Bentley to Sonata is just ridiculous!
The 535 and the TL are not so far apart that someone "like me" wouldn't consider them both, because "I did"! I also considered many other cars, the SH-AWD TL was the best fit for performance and long term reliability.
BTW, I looked real hard at the 335D also...
The 535 and the TL are not so far apart that someone "like me" wouldn't consider them both, because "I did"! I also considered many other cars, the SH-AWD TL was the best fit for performance and long term reliability.
BTW, I looked real hard at the 335D also...
You can get them cheaper pretty much only if you order the base car & wait a few months for it to build & ship.
One can always go back to the old argument the BMW is too expensive but in reality a product is worth what people are willing to pay for it & based on saturno_v's numbers 39,488 people bought 5 series in 2010 vs. the 34,049 who bought TL's. On the gross number sold I would expect the majority of 5 series went out the door at $57/58K+ while a majority of the TL's were base & more likely under $42K.
Meh, 535 was out of my budget for this year. If I had wanted the 535 and seriously wanted it, goodbye G, goodbye TL, goodbye CTS. For me it's no contest. That car is so gorgeous and rides like it looks. Even the 528 with the new 4 banger, no contest, I don't car if you beat me at every stop light with your TL. You can have that satisfaction.
Again, either you are simply not credible (but I want to give you the benefit of the doubt) or you don't know how to shop for cars.....it seems interesting that someone that has BMW in such high regard does not own one and drives an Infiniti, which is only few thousands of dollars away from a comparable Bimmer.......I believe at this point that you are of the people that stretch his very last dollar on a car purchase...as we said before not everyone think like that....and if you think that a 4 banger 528 is a way better car than my TL SH-AWD I'm glad for you.....
Last edited by saturno_v; 01-08-2012 at 03:10 AM.
01-08-2012, 05:59 AM
#324
Senior Moderator
iTrader: (1)
One can always go back to the old argument the BMW is too expensive but in reality a product is worth what people are willing to pay for it & based on saturno_v's numbers 39,488 people bought 5 series in 2010 vs. the 34,049 who bought TL's. On the gross number sold I would expect the majority of 5 series went out the door at $57/58K+ while a majority of the TL's were base & more likely under $42K.
01-08-2012, 06:16 AM
#325
Three Wheelin'
BTW, I know that these numbers can vary, and one variable is that taxes are different on leases in different states. I'm basing my numbers on Texas where you pay tax on the entire amount of the "purchase price" of the car, and no money down other than a security deposit/first month payment.
01-08-2012, 06:40 AM
#326
Instructor
It's quite interesting reading perspectives on why people shop particular brands and price points. I agree some stretch their dollar when buying a car more then they could afford. But what about those who lease rather then buy? Many consumers lease rather then buy because it allows them to buy a monthy payment for a more expensive car. Yes, there are some advantages to lease rather then purchase for business owners, but for the rank and file the only benefits is allowing a consumer to buy a car they couldn't afford if they purchased it and replace it after 3 years.
Personally I never leased a car and never had taken a note for more then 3 years. I did cross shop most of all the vehicles mentioned in past posts.
IMHO, the TL would be crossed shopped more with the 5 and others if they changed the styling of the car. I'll be honest, when I saw the 2009 TL redesign, I never stepped foot in the dealership for even a test drive although I did shop and test drive the G, M, E, the and 5. I know some had said you might feel different about the 4G TL if you drove the car. No, I couldn't do that, and went else where. I'm sure I'm not the only car buyer who felt like this.
Another thing many are hung up on is performance of the TL vs 5 entry level 528. I remember my 2002 TL Type S with a 0-60 in 6.4 seconds was considered to be a pretty hot car. The 2012 528 with a 4 banger and 500 pounds heavier run 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, no slouch at all and better gas mileage. Of course the 550s & 535s perform in the 5s with a higher price tag and extra features.
There is a difference between Acura and BMW regarding refinement with a price tag to match, but you are paying an extra 10k+ for a BMW and you can see and experiance the refinement when you drive one. There is a difference and depends if one would or could spend the money to have it.
I'm still hanging around here to see what Acura and the new TL might be and possibly consider buying Acura again. Maybe I can save myself 15k on my next car purchase being I buy with a large down payment.
Personally I never leased a car and never had taken a note for more then 3 years. I did cross shop most of all the vehicles mentioned in past posts.
IMHO, the TL would be crossed shopped more with the 5 and others if they changed the styling of the car. I'll be honest, when I saw the 2009 TL redesign, I never stepped foot in the dealership for even a test drive although I did shop and test drive the G, M, E, the and 5. I know some had said you might feel different about the 4G TL if you drove the car. No, I couldn't do that, and went else where. I'm sure I'm not the only car buyer who felt like this.
Another thing many are hung up on is performance of the TL vs 5 entry level 528. I remember my 2002 TL Type S with a 0-60 in 6.4 seconds was considered to be a pretty hot car. The 2012 528 with a 4 banger and 500 pounds heavier run 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, no slouch at all and better gas mileage. Of course the 550s & 535s perform in the 5s with a higher price tag and extra features.
There is a difference between Acura and BMW regarding refinement with a price tag to match, but you are paying an extra 10k+ for a BMW and you can see and experiance the refinement when you drive one. There is a difference and depends if one would or could spend the money to have it.
I'm still hanging around here to see what Acura and the new TL might be and possibly consider buying Acura again. Maybe I can save myself 15k on my next car purchase being I buy with a large down payment.
01-08-2012, 06:52 AM
#327
Suzuka Master
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There is overlap at the TL top & 5 series bottom but I don’t believe Acura sells many $46K TL’s or BMW many $48K 5’s. Personally I can’t see buying a stripped luxury car because it loses the luxury thing. I also think someone scraping together enough money to by a stripped 5 would be better off with a TL or nicely equipped 335i for less money, but that’s just me.
There can be word games with comfortably afford or just plain afford but the bottom line is a vast majority of TL buyers are not in the market for a $48/50K car. In your estimation what % of total TL sales is the SH-AWD & what % of the TL buyers can afford (using the true meaning of afford) a SH-AWD but don’t buy one? Be interesting to do a poll.
Finally its still a matter of perception. My world view perceives a $12K+ spread on a car you can get for $36K for most people is a big deal you keep saying its not unless I am missing something.
01-08-2012, 06:54 AM
#328
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Have no idea other then in Raleigh both brands only advertise lease prices in their adds. My BMW dealer also sells Acura so it might be a fluke.
01-08-2012, 08:46 AM
#329
Burning Brakes
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Nope, I'm simply implying that money is finite for most of society and we owe it to ourselves to get the best for every dollar, regardless of wealth.
01-08-2012, 09:44 AM
#330
Burning Brakes
I don't know if you are simply not believable or you don't know how to buy cars....let me help you.....you say, "the 5 Series, even the 528 with its 4 banger is no contest compared to the CTS, the G opr the TL, forget them you said".....hmm ok....you claim you own a G37......a base G37 is 36.2, the base 528 is ~45.......if you wanted that 528 so much, even if you were financially stretched, you could have waited 6 months, one year or so and come up with the difference..........
Again, either you are simply not credible (but I want to give you the benefit of the doubt) or you don't know how to ...
Again, either you are simply not credible (but I want to give you the benefit of the doubt) or you don't know how to ...
A few years later, I bought a G for slightly under $45(MSRP not OTD) that basically has everything and the kitchen sink. And yes for $49K or so, I could have gotten a less equipped but best-in-class BMW 528 AWD. Or a 328 AWD for $36K or a 335 AWD rocket for $44K. (BTW, I'm not sure where you get your numbers, mine is right from the BMW website.)
My G is not best-in-class, it's darn good, but the thing is loaded. This time I wanted the equipment, not the car, so I made some sacrifices.
With an MSRP $55K, college educations, second house etc, seriously cross-shopping a car $5 to $10K more was not in the cards, especially since I wanted the equipment this time around.
And you are right the base G37 is a screaming bargain, but you didn't get the base TL either.
01-08-2012, 09:49 AM
#331
Burning Brakes
If people really thought like you outline, no one would buy an Acura, Porsche, Infiniti, BMW. Getting the "best" for every dollar is a personal decision, because what's "best" for you is not "best" for me; at least here in a free capitalistic society.
Clearly went a little far off-road in discussing Acura vs Infiniti.
Last edited by g37guy01; 01-08-2012 at 09:53 AM.
01-08-2012, 10:11 AM
#332
Burning Brakes
Don't get me ...snip....
And let's be realistic here, that example is a stretch compared to what we are talking about. The TL pricing at least ends where the 5 starts and the two are not as distant. A TL SH and 535ix (even 535i) actually do have a lot in common when you exclude price and luxury level.
And let's be realistic here, that example is a stretch compared to what we are talking about. The TL pricing at least ends where the 5 starts and the two are not as distant. A TL SH and 535ix (even 535i) actually do have a lot in common when you exclude price and luxury level.
- 528 RWD ($45K) to TL FWD ($35K)
- 528 AWD ($50K) to TL SHAWD ($39K)
- 535 RWD ($52K) to TL FWD ($35K)
- 535 AWD ($55K) to TL SHAWD ($39K)
Someone who is interested in a loaded TL SHAWD for $44.5K will not be interested in a stripper 535 (so I think, which to me makes common sense).
A 535 buyer will no doubt add a few thousand in options and then cross shop the TL? I guess anything is true, but this case is at the fringe of the bell curve.
As I said I fully agree people do what they want. We could come up with the most outrageous examples that make no sense, I'm sure someone in the world has done it. (Bugatti vs TL for example)
The marketing departments are not stupid, while we sit here and debate this stuff, I'm sure the marketing departments for these car manufacturers has complete customer profile demographics and a host of other information that help them run their businesses.
01-08-2012, 12:26 PM
#333
There can be word games with comfortably afford or just plain afford but the bottom line is a vast majority of TL buyers are not in the market for a $48/50K car. In your estimation what % of total TL sales is the SH-AWD & what % of the TL buyers can afford (using the true meaning of afford) a SH-AWD but don’t buy one? Be interesting to do a poll.
FWD vs. SH-AWD?? Frankly I don't know and it could be interesting to read some hard numbers......from a personal perspective, (it could not mean anything) here in Seattle my impression is that I see as many FWD on the road than SH-AWD
Finally its still a matter of perception. My world view perceives a $12K+ spread on a car you can get for $36K for most people is a big deal you keep saying its not unless I am missing something.
Furthermore, I have not noticed a difference, among the BMW and Acura buyers (or also Infiniti or Audi and so on) I happen know, in earning power/professions...(as best as I can tell)....obviously we are not talking the upper segment of the BMW offering (7 Series, M, 550 and so on)...
.
A few years later, I bought a G for slightly under $45(MSRP not OTD) that basically has everything and the kitchen sink. And yes for $49K or so, I could have gotten a less equipped but best-in-class BMW 528 AWD. Or a 328 AWD for $36K or a 335 AWD rocket for $44K. (BTW, I'm not sure where you get your numbers, mine is right from the BMW website.)
A few years later, I bought a G for slightly under $45(MSRP not OTD) that basically has everything and the kitchen sink. And yes for $49K or so, I could have gotten a less equipped but best-in-class BMW 528 AWD. Or a 328 AWD for $36K or a 335 AWD rocket for $44K. (BTW, I'm not sure where you get your numbers, mine is right from the BMW website.)
You claim that you spent 49K on a G37.....you admitted that the "best in class" 335i cost 44K...that would have left you 5K worth of gadgets, not a trivial sum.....a "best in class" car, as you think the Bimmer is, is worth few less accessories or few months of waiting.....sorry but does not make any sense....if you managed to put your butt on a G37 you could have done it with a decently equipped 335i....it is ridiculous IMHO that you did not buy the car you really wanted for few thousands dollars of difference...
With an MSRP $55K, college educations, second house etc, seriously cross-shopping a car $5 to $10K more was not in the cards, especially since I wanted the equipment this time around.
My G is not best-in-class, it's darn good, but the thing is loaded.
You made the best choice, in my opinion, with the G.....is not an inferior car compared to a 3 Series by any stretch of imagination, other than some magazine writer.....too bad that you got one for the wrong reasons........
I smell a badge chaser here, sorry.....
Last edited by saturno_v; 01-08-2012 at 12:29 PM.
01-08-2012, 12:55 PM
#334
Drifting
A few years later, I bought a G for slightly under $45(MSRP not OTD) that basically has everything and the kitchen sink. And yes for $49K or so, I could have gotten a less equipped but best-in-class BMW 528 AWD. Or a 328 AWD for $36K or a 335 AWD rocket for $44K. (BTW, I'm not sure where you get your numbers, mine is right from the BMW website.)
My G is not best-in-class, it's darn good, but the thing is loaded. This time I wanted the equipment, not the car, so I made some sacrifices.
My G is not best-in-class, it's darn good, but the thing is loaded. This time I wanted the equipment, not the car, so I made some sacrifices.
01-08-2012, 01:04 PM
#335
Burning Brakes
The spread is 9.5K (base vs base) and in "my world" is fairly normal to consider cars within ranges...I never buy cars in term of my maximum possible car payment.....obviously I have a limit but I do not necessarily buy a vehicle at the limit...
Furthermore, I have not noticed a difference, among the BMW and Acura buyers (or also Infiniti or Audi and so on) I happen know, in earning power/professions...(as best as I can tell)....obviously we are not talking the upper segment of the BMW offering (7 Series, M, 550 and so on)...
I get my numbers from the MSN auto web site (for convenience, you can access all manufacturer pricing in the same web site) and the G37 base (Journey) there is listed at 36.2K
You claim that you spent 49K on a G37.....you admitted that the "best in class" 335i cost 44K...that would have left you 5K worth of gadgets, not a trivial sum.....a "best in class" car, as you think the Bimmer is, is worth few less accessories or few months of waiting.....sorry but does not make any sense....if you managed to put your butt on a G37 you could have done it with a decently equipped 335i....it is ridiculous IMHO that you did not buy the car you really wanted for few thousands dollars of difference...
Sorry but, again, the numbers do not add up......you did not buy a Sonata but a G, which belong to the same league than a 3 Series and very very close in price......
You made the best choice, in my opinion, with the G.....is not an inferior car compared to a 3 Series by any stretch of imagination, other than some magazine writer.....too bad that you got one for the wrong reasons........
I smell a badge chaser here, sorry.....
Furthermore, I have not noticed a difference, among the BMW and Acura buyers (or also Infiniti or Audi and so on) I happen know, in earning power/professions...(as best as I can tell)....obviously we are not talking the upper segment of the BMW offering (7 Series, M, 550 and so on)...
I get my numbers from the MSN auto web site (for convenience, you can access all manufacturer pricing in the same web site) and the G37 base (Journey) there is listed at 36.2K
You claim that you spent 49K on a G37.....you admitted that the "best in class" 335i cost 44K...that would have left you 5K worth of gadgets, not a trivial sum.....a "best in class" car, as you think the Bimmer is, is worth few less accessories or few months of waiting.....sorry but does not make any sense....if you managed to put your butt on a G37 you could have done it with a decently equipped 335i....it is ridiculous IMHO that you did not buy the car you really wanted for few thousands dollars of difference...
Sorry but, again, the numbers do not add up......you did not buy a Sonata but a G, which belong to the same league than a 3 Series and very very close in price......
You made the best choice, in my opinion, with the G.....is not an inferior car compared to a 3 Series by any stretch of imagination, other than some magazine writer.....too bad that you got one for the wrong reasons........
I smell a badge chaser here, sorry.....
I don't use MSN auto website, I go the manufacturers website and configure a car, this way i get correct information.
So my figures are correct as I went to Acura's website and BMW's website.
Obviously I had a flexible upper limit as well, with a budget in mind. I could pay cash for a Bentley Armitage, but then other aspects of my life down the road would have a repurcussion. So I had a flexible budget in mind when I went car shopping.
Finally I got my car for the right reasons, my reasons; it was the best car for me.
As far as badge chasing, there is a lot of it going on here. Not that there is anything wrong with it.
I believe some cars are better in the holistic sense, when comparing car mission to car mission. All cars have compromises and you pick the car that has the least compromise and the most value to you, whatever you believe is your requirement at both ends of the spectrum.
You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you, but that's what this discussion is all about.
01-08-2012, 02:54 PM
#336
Suzuka Master
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Finally I got my car for the right reasons, my reasons; it was the best car for me. I believe some cars are better in the holistic sense, when comparing car mission to car mission. All cars have compromises and you pick the car that has the least compromise and the most value to you, whatever you believe is your requirement at both ends of the spectrum.
You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you, but that's what this discussion is all about.
You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you, but that's what this discussion is all about.
When I narrowed down the choice for my 1/2 DD, the other 1/2 DD is my Ranger pick-up, it was a choice of the 335is or the Corvette Grand Sport. The MSRP's were within a $500 dollars of each other so price was a non-event in the decision.
I went with the BMW because it best suited my current requirement, good looking , quick, agile, usable back seat, street sleeper that is easily modified for major power gains without looking modified.
That being said there is a brand new bright red Corvette GS coupe two house up the street, great looking car - will have to get a picture, & if it tempts me enough over the winter I might just move the 330Ci out & get a convertible one to play with.
Fortunately my wife of 48 years has no problems with my various hobbies, except for being nervous about the aerobatics, so hopefully I will be dead before I am forced to grow up.
01-08-2012, 08:09 PM
#337
I don't use MSN auto website, I go the manufacturers website and configure a car, this way i get correct information.
I could pay cash for a Bentley Armitage, but then other aspects of my life down the road would have a repurcussion.
Finally I got my car for the right reasons, my reasons; it was the best car for me.
As far as badge chasing, there is a lot of it going on here. Not that there is anything wrong with it.
You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you
01-08-2012, 09:30 PM
#338
Burning Brakes
I'm glad you can....this, however reinforce my doubts......if you have the means, as you stated, and you consider the BMW the "best in class", the "no context, scratch this and scratch that" option why negate yourself what you think is the best of the best for few thousand dollars?? Does not make sense does it?? Unless you think exactly like me, that the 3 Series was not really worth the extra cash compared to your G, (the same thing I though about my TL SH-AWD vs. the 535 xDrive) and you are arguing for argument sake.....it's ok we can have fun arguing and exchanging opinions....
Good, I'm glad for you, enjoy it...the G is a terrific sport sedan, do not downplay it compared to the 3 Series because it is as every ounce as capable as the Bimmer and even much better looking (inside and outside) IMHO.
Nothing wrong for wanting a badge.....just not fantasize about non existing superiority though....just admit it....
I do not want to convince anybody, to each his own as we said before....just do not try to sell me supposed superiority that is mostly imaginary....
Good, I'm glad for you, enjoy it...the G is a terrific sport sedan, do not downplay it compared to the 3 Series because it is as every ounce as capable as the Bimmer and even much better looking (inside and outside) IMHO.
Nothing wrong for wanting a badge.....just not fantasize about non existing superiority though....just admit it....
I do not want to convince anybody, to each his own as we said before....just do not try to sell me supposed superiority that is mostly imaginary....
Just because I have a lot of cash in the bank, doesn't mean I have a money tree in my back yard.
And just because I didn't buy a 3 or 5 series or GT3 or whatever, doesn't mean I think the cars aren't worth the price. People are obviously buying them. Bugatti at a million, sold out before they were even built. Said another way, I wanted more of a decked out car, and buying a 3 or 5 series decked out the way I wanted was more than I wanted to spend at this moment. As I said I don't have a money tree in the back yard, yet. (I'm working on it though) As I previously said, it's about compromises, finances are part of the compromise.
As far as non-existing superiority, yes, I love riding around in the G, the thing is unflappable, fast and has more room then the three series. But BMW has perfected the road vs machine thing, which is why their cars are a cut above the rest, imo. Their fulfillment to the mission of what constitutes a sporty car is what I am referring to.
This does not take away from any other competitor in this segment. They all have their pluses and minuses.
Last edited by g37guy01; 01-08-2012 at 09:33 PM.
01-08-2012, 11:07 PM
#339
This depends on what you are looking at:
- 528 RWD ($45K) to TL FWD ($35K)
- 528 AWD ($50K) to TL SHAWD ($39K)
- 535 RWD ($52K) to TL FWD ($35K)
- 535 AWD ($55K) to TL SHAWD ($39K)
Someone who is interested in a loaded TL SHAWD for $44.5K will not be interested in a stripper 535 (so I think, which to me makes common sense).
A 535 buyer will no doubt add a few thousand in options and then cross shop the TL? I guess anything is true, but this case is at the fringe of the bell curve.
As I said I fully agree people do what they want. We could come up with the most outrageous examples that make no sense, I'm sure someone in the world has done it. (Bugatti vs TL for example)
The marketing departments are not stupid, while we sit here and debate this stuff, I'm sure the marketing departments for these car manufacturers has complete customer profile demographics and a host of other information that help them run their businesses.
- 528 RWD ($45K) to TL FWD ($35K)
- 528 AWD ($50K) to TL SHAWD ($39K)
- 535 RWD ($52K) to TL FWD ($35K)
- 535 AWD ($55K) to TL SHAWD ($39K)
Someone who is interested in a loaded TL SHAWD for $44.5K will not be interested in a stripper 535 (so I think, which to me makes common sense).
A 535 buyer will no doubt add a few thousand in options and then cross shop the TL? I guess anything is true, but this case is at the fringe of the bell curve.
As I said I fully agree people do what they want. We could come up with the most outrageous examples that make no sense, I'm sure someone in the world has done it. (Bugatti vs TL for example)
The marketing departments are not stupid, while we sit here and debate this stuff, I'm sure the marketing departments for these car manufacturers has complete customer profile demographics and a host of other information that help them run their businesses.
You're right about the marketing deparments, there was something in there that suggested to Acura that they should aim the TL as a vehicle that crosses segments or fills the niche gap between them. It might not be that many or the majority of TL buyers as a whole but a lot of 4G members here have proven this.
As an aside, while tailgating/attending at a mjor sporting event earlier today (technically yesterday) I happened to see a number of new 5 series. None were the 550 (not to say there were none), most were the 528, around 75% or so to be specific and the rest were 535's with about half in either case being the AWD. As far as features and packages, non were really loaded, seemed like one or two packages at best.
I understand it is a small sample size but it did help confirm my belief that people buy that car for very different reasons than someone buys a TL (around here at least) and as it was referenced to earlier, it also seemed as though these individuals did stretch their car budgets to the max for the sake of badge chasing.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 01-08-2012 at 11:13 PM.
01-08-2012, 11:57 PM
#340
My understanding is that you have a have a robust income....again, if you think the Bimmer was that much above the cut and you did not want to spend the money now, I believe, the way you described your financial situation (you are not on minimum wage for sure) just waiting 6 months or one year you could have had your decked out 3 Series for the same monthly payment (just putting more cash down)
This is what I see it.....let me give you an example....before I got my TL I thought for a moment to do a crazy move and buy a Nissan GT-R (you live only once...)....the lack of a true manual transmission and the more limited rear seats than I thought (I knew it it was a Sport car but I expected just a bit more room given the external size) did change my mind.....if I went that route I probably would have waited 2 years or more, keep my Maxima which was running perfectly and lay down a significantly larger down payment for the Nissan Godzilla....
This does not take away from any other competitor in this segment. They all have their pluses and minuses.
01-09-2012, 10:19 AM
#342
Burning Brakes
One can say anything about any car. You could claim that the Sonata is the best in class sports sedan for cars up to $100,000. While this is quite a stretch, I'm making a point. That's much different than saying the Sonota is the best car for you or me because of reasons, a, b, c.
While my fellow posting buddy saturno, seems to take issue with my thoughts on BMW being best in class, there is a court of public opinion with some sentiment to back that up.
01-09-2012, 11:18 AM
#343
I cross-shopped (meaning got in and drove with the ability to buy) all cars discussed here; the TL had what I wanted and more (interior size). Other cars had it to, but were more expensive, not a Honda, and didn't make you look like a d-bag (hello 5 series).
I don't know why anyone would pay more money for "brand superiority," but then again they are probably leasing those cars and wearing some gawd-awful graphic t-shirt and jeans with fancy stitching.
I don't know why anyone would pay more money for "brand superiority," but then again they are probably leasing those cars and wearing some gawd-awful graphic t-shirt and jeans with fancy stitching.
Last edited by Pete2010; 01-09-2012 at 05:49 PM. Reason: crazy paste - mod fixed
01-09-2012, 11:53 AM
#345
Suzuka Master
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^^^^^
+1
In addition you could have ignored brand superiority gotten an Accord, picked up a few more cubic feet in interior/trunk space to boot (no pun intended) & saved a pile of money.
+1
In addition you could have ignored brand superiority gotten an Accord, picked up a few more cubic feet in interior/trunk space to boot (no pun intended) & saved a pile of money.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-09-2012 at 11:56 AM.
01-09-2012, 12:24 PM
#346
If brand is not in the equation, then I think people would save even more by buying a Sonata rather than an Accord.
01-09-2012, 12:41 PM
#347
It does not make much sense to me.....the Accord and especially the Sonata are terrific cars for the money but are not exactly what I would call sport sedans...the Accord is a bit sportier in behavior but not quite, the Sonata definitely not at all.....it has nothing to do with the brand....yes if you look only for space you could save a bundle buying an Accord....
Let me give you an other example....the Genesis is an unbelievable car for the money but I would still get a 5 Series instead because I like it better and because the Genesis is not very sporty......it tries to hit a spot between an E class and a 5 Series (and missing the mark, somewhat in my opinion).
And I find the Genesis style a bit too bland.
It has nothing to do with the brand, just with what I like.....nor I say that the Genesis is an inferior car....just different....if you look for cream puff comfort I would get the Genesis over the 5 Series, hands down....and I find the Hyundai V8 a bit "creamier" and smoother than the BMW V8....but the Bimmer unit has prodigious amount of low end torque with its turbocharger....and I absolutely love turbocharged cars.
Between an E class and a Genesis I would not get either....actually maybe I would go with the Genesis and save some money....I do nto like both cars anyway...
Let me give you an other example....the Genesis is an unbelievable car for the money but I would still get a 5 Series instead because I like it better and because the Genesis is not very sporty......it tries to hit a spot between an E class and a 5 Series (and missing the mark, somewhat in my opinion).
And I find the Genesis style a bit too bland.
It has nothing to do with the brand, just with what I like.....nor I say that the Genesis is an inferior car....just different....if you look for cream puff comfort I would get the Genesis over the 5 Series, hands down....and I find the Hyundai V8 a bit "creamier" and smoother than the BMW V8....but the Bimmer unit has prodigious amount of low end torque with its turbocharger....and I absolutely love turbocharged cars.
Between an E class and a Genesis I would not get either....actually maybe I would go with the Genesis and save some money....I do nto like both cars anyway...
01-09-2012, 12:45 PM
#348
What do you mean?? Almost any person that can fog a mirror can manage to put their butt on a BMW or a Mercedes nowadays if they want to....BMW is approaching production numbers of a mainstream car manufacturer.....I think the "distinguishing myself driving a BMW" is becoming a memory......sometimes I get the feeling that in Seattle there are more 3 Series than Civics....
01-09-2012, 12:58 PM
#349
Three Wheelin'
What do you mean?? Almost any person that can fog a mirror can manage to put their butt on a BMW or a Mercedes nowadays if they want to....BMW is approaching production numbers of a mainstream car manufacturer.....I think the "distinguishing myself driving a BMW" is becoming a memory......sometimes I get the feeling that in Seattle there are more 3 Series than Civics....
Look around the parking lot and see what cars you see there. If you want to, quiz the people who drive up what type of cars they have and what they think of various cars. Believe me when I tell you that your opinion of what is popular will change. We are all guilty of basing our opinions based upon people we know, or work with, or live in our neighborhood. These are not a cross sampling of society in general. When we are driving down the freeway, our eyes are not attracted to the countless beat to crap Corollas, your eyes are drawn to the cars we are interested in.
Last edited by jjsC5; 01-09-2012 at 01:01 PM.
01-09-2012, 01:17 PM
#350
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Out of curiosity I checked the first BMW dealer I came to in Washington State on a Google search and as saturno_v said most of the inventory are indeed 528’s – $52, 59, 60, 61, 60, 51, 57, 64K but unlike as was suggested the only “strippers” were $52 & 51K against a base stripper MSRP of $46,900.
Then I look a look at BMW of the Hudson Valley in Westchester NY & while they listed no prices all the 528’s they had were 4X4’s which start at a MSRP of $49,200. That being said they were all optioned above being stripped. So I moved on to the BMW in Mt Kisco also in Westchester County where winstrolvtec posts from & they had prices with their 528’s $59, 59, 57, 57, 56, 56, 56, 56, 55, 53K
So looks like based on this limited unscientific sample there is not a great number of stripped $47K 528’s available despite the implication that in Seattle & Westchester based on the posters observations there are fleets of cheap 528’s cruising around.
saturno_v has made two points one that the 5 series sells more cars because it has more models then the TL.......not sure what the logic is. The 5 series costs more & both cars various models are built off the same shell, have two drive systems & in the case of the volume sellers two motors as choices.
The other is mirror breath. I am not sure that anyone except those in saturno_v’s imagination who can breath can buy a BMW but that’s just me. IIRC a number of people here who I give credit for breathing since they are posting have said that a 5 series is out of their price range.
Maybe there are more 3 series in Seattle then Civics is because as saturno_V like to remind us it’s a pretty affluent city with stripped BMW 528’s all over the place & those people might not be attracted to Civics. If they can afford a 5 series, breath on a mirror they can certainly afford a 3 series even $60K ones.
Then I look a look at BMW of the Hudson Valley in Westchester NY & while they listed no prices all the 528’s they had were 4X4’s which start at a MSRP of $49,200. That being said they were all optioned above being stripped. So I moved on to the BMW in Mt Kisco also in Westchester County where winstrolvtec posts from & they had prices with their 528’s $59, 59, 57, 57, 56, 56, 56, 56, 55, 53K
So looks like based on this limited unscientific sample there is not a great number of stripped $47K 528’s available despite the implication that in Seattle & Westchester based on the posters observations there are fleets of cheap 528’s cruising around.
saturno_v has made two points one that the 5 series sells more cars because it has more models then the TL.......not sure what the logic is. The 5 series costs more & both cars various models are built off the same shell, have two drive systems & in the case of the volume sellers two motors as choices.
The other is mirror breath. I am not sure that anyone except those in saturno_v’s imagination who can breath can buy a BMW but that’s just me. IIRC a number of people here who I give credit for breathing since they are posting have said that a 5 series is out of their price range.
Maybe there are more 3 series in Seattle then Civics is because as saturno_V like to remind us it’s a pretty affluent city with stripped BMW 528’s all over the place & those people might not be attracted to Civics. If they can afford a 5 series, breath on a mirror they can certainly afford a 3 series even $60K ones.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-09-2012 at 01:20 PM.
01-09-2012, 02:22 PM
#351
Burning Brakes
What do you mean?? Almost any person that can fog a mirror can manage to put their butt on a BMW or a Mercedes nowadays if they want to....BMW is approaching production numbers of a mainstream car manufacturer.....I think the "distinguishing myself driving a BMW" is becoming a memory......sometimes I get the feeling that in Seattle there are more 3 Series than Civics....
It doesn't take away from the fact that BMW does a great job in tuning their vehicles to have great driving dynamics.
01-09-2012, 02:47 PM
#352
Out of curiosity I checked the first BMW dealer I came to in Washington State on a Google search and as saturno_v said most of the inventory are indeed 528’s – $52, 59, 60, 61, 60, 51, 57, 64K but unlike as was suggested the only “strippers” were $52 & 51K against a base stripper MSRP of $46,900.
Then I look a look at BMW of the Hudson Valley in Westchester NY & while they listed no prices all the 528’s they had were 4X4’s which start at a MSRP of $49,200. That being said they were all optioned above being stripped. So I moved on to the BMW in Mt Kisco also in Westchester County where winstrolvtec posts from & they had prices with their 528’s $59, 59, 57, 57, 56, 56, 56, 56, 55, 53K
So looks like based on this limited unscientific sample there is not a great number of stripped $47K 528’s available despite the implication that in Seattle & Westchester based on the posters observations there are fleets of cheap 528’s cruising around.
saturno_v has made two points one that the 5 series sells more cars because it has more models then the TL.......not sure what the logic is. The 5 series costs more & both cars various models are built off the same shell, have two drive systems & in the case of the volume sellers two motors as choices.
The other is mirror breath. I am not sure that anyone except those in saturno_v’s imagination who can breath can buy a BMW but that’s just me. IIRC a number of people here who I give credit for breathing since they are posting have said that a 5 series is out of their price range.
Maybe there are more 3 series in Seattle then Civics is because as saturno_V like to remind us it’s a pretty affluent city with stripped BMW 528’s all over the place & those people might not be attracted to Civics. If they can afford a 5 series, breath on a mirror they can certainly afford a 3 series even $60K ones.
Then I look a look at BMW of the Hudson Valley in Westchester NY & while they listed no prices all the 528’s they had were 4X4’s which start at a MSRP of $49,200. That being said they were all optioned above being stripped. So I moved on to the BMW in Mt Kisco also in Westchester County where winstrolvtec posts from & they had prices with their 528’s $59, 59, 57, 57, 56, 56, 56, 56, 55, 53K
So looks like based on this limited unscientific sample there is not a great number of stripped $47K 528’s available despite the implication that in Seattle & Westchester based on the posters observations there are fleets of cheap 528’s cruising around.
saturno_v has made two points one that the 5 series sells more cars because it has more models then the TL.......not sure what the logic is. The 5 series costs more & both cars various models are built off the same shell, have two drive systems & in the case of the volume sellers two motors as choices.
The other is mirror breath. I am not sure that anyone except those in saturno_v’s imagination who can breath can buy a BMW but that’s just me. IIRC a number of people here who I give credit for breathing since they are posting have said that a 5 series is out of their price range.
Maybe there are more 3 series in Seattle then Civics is because as saturno_V like to remind us it’s a pretty affluent city with stripped BMW 528’s all over the place & those people might not be attracted to Civics. If they can afford a 5 series, breath on a mirror they can certainly afford a 3 series even $60K ones.
It's not hard to get a vehicle that cost $10-$20k to have a similar monthly payment, not much more, or even less depending. You can extent the term, lease vs finance, put more money down, etc. Many times you see a combo of eveything as this is what people actually do when they stretch their car budget to the max and probably should be looking at something else but that is another discussion. This is on top of the part about most brands that are lease heavy who make it a bit more affordable to lease a car of a certin amount of money than would another company who is financed heavily.
This argument is also a bit of a contradiction IMO because those who say the comparison in discussion is not really warranted on the basis of who cross shops them and sticker price, seem to forget that the cars that they would consider the TL to be more closely cross shopped with also have exceeding price point, in many cases they are not much less than a 5 or mid level sedan.
The 335ix comparably equipped is around $53k while the S4 is closer to the $60k side. If you start with an SH tech, that's a $10k-$15k strecth which again, is not much different than the other comparisons. Similarly, I think just on the basis of price one would be foolish not to also compare and cross shop an A6, and or 5 series, etc since they were already in that territory, even closer than any TL at that point.
Based on price, we probably should say those models with that level of equipment are as comparable as the appropriate TL is, the main difference being the TL still more closely resembles those vehicles by size and market position, despite it being further away in price.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 01-09-2012 at 02:56 PM.
01-09-2012, 03:52 PM
#353
Burning Brakes
^^^You can say the same thing about ther G IPL which is about $48K. You're in BMW 5 series territory. I think you are right about one thing though, a G37x or TL SHAWD tech @$45K could give one pause to look at the 5 series since there is an overlap.
An AWD BMW 528 starts at about $50K, then I would want to add the cold weather and tech package. Lease or finance $55K, not want I wanted to do this time around. So you are talking about vehicles within $10,000 or more for the 535 AWD.
The 5 series price is a notch up from the TL and G. Depending on whether you believe BMW is a premium manufacturer or not you could say you either step-up or step-down into a 528/535. But to me, the cars are not directly comparable because there is not a pricing parity with the amenities reflecting the demographic of the target market, whoever they are. Clearly the 5er has a more expensive entry fee, as does the 3er.
An AWD BMW 528 starts at about $50K, then I would want to add the cold weather and tech package. Lease or finance $55K, not want I wanted to do this time around. So you are talking about vehicles within $10,000 or more for the 535 AWD.
The 5 series price is a notch up from the TL and G. Depending on whether you believe BMW is a premium manufacturer or not you could say you either step-up or step-down into a 528/535. But to me, the cars are not directly comparable because there is not a pricing parity with the amenities reflecting the demographic of the target market, whoever they are. Clearly the 5er has a more expensive entry fee, as does the 3er.
01-09-2012, 04:03 PM
#354
Suzuka Master
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I am not setting any special set of criteria other then the cars in question. I specifically said it was unscientific. The BMW 5 series that anyone who can breath can buy is simply what is available on the dealers lots today.
I posted what is on the lot at my BMW dealer & his are all 535’s so I looked in your & saturno_v’s home courts to be fair & found as was stated by both of you that indeed there were a lot of 528’s there but I also found the median price of in stock 5 series inventory was about $55/56K. No real strippers that saturno_v or you were talking about seeing.
After you post to further my unscientific look into I selected my BMW dealers Acura store which shares the same lot with his Porsche, Chevy & Subaru stores to be sure I had the same demographic customer base. What makes this somewhat compelling is Performance & Lieth are the only BMW/Acura dealers in the Research Triangle area. The next dealer for BMW is about 30 miles away & Acura maybe 60+
The total current Acura inventory at Performance is priced at 7 X $35.6K, 7 X $39K & one for $41.5K. Lieth has 14 X $36.4, 6 X $42K & 8 X 40K. This admittedly unscientific example does not go very far in supporting that the majority of TL buyers are legitimately cross shopping the 5 series with purchasing power to close the deal.
One other thought - I know please spare us - Acura/Honda management does not seem to believe saturno_v’s analyses of what their market is because they seem to be pretty busily changing the strategy announcing the new one in Detroit that looks like going back to the 3G strategy of a entry level luxury car with the ILX sedan with pricing “well below $30K” as the prime driver.
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Honda, Takanobu stated, “To be very honest, I’ am not satisfied with Acura.” He added, “Something has to be done to help it stand out, to be more unique and return to the sporty image it had when there was the Integra and NSX.”
I posted what is on the lot at my BMW dealer & his are all 535’s so I looked in your & saturno_v’s home courts to be fair & found as was stated by both of you that indeed there were a lot of 528’s there but I also found the median price of in stock 5 series inventory was about $55/56K. No real strippers that saturno_v or you were talking about seeing.
After you post to further my unscientific look into I selected my BMW dealers Acura store which shares the same lot with his Porsche, Chevy & Subaru stores to be sure I had the same demographic customer base. What makes this somewhat compelling is Performance & Lieth are the only BMW/Acura dealers in the Research Triangle area. The next dealer for BMW is about 30 miles away & Acura maybe 60+
The total current Acura inventory at Performance is priced at 7 X $35.6K, 7 X $39K & one for $41.5K. Lieth has 14 X $36.4, 6 X $42K & 8 X 40K. This admittedly unscientific example does not go very far in supporting that the majority of TL buyers are legitimately cross shopping the 5 series with purchasing power to close the deal.
One other thought - I know please spare us - Acura/Honda management does not seem to believe saturno_v’s analyses of what their market is because they seem to be pretty busily changing the strategy announcing the new one in Detroit that looks like going back to the 3G strategy of a entry level luxury car with the ILX sedan with pricing “well below $30K” as the prime driver.
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Honda, Takanobu stated, “To be very honest, I’ am not satisfied with Acura.” He added, “Something has to be done to help it stand out, to be more unique and return to the sporty image it had when there was the Integra and NSX.”
01-09-2012, 04:16 PM
#355
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Could not edit the above post was timed out
Could be that generation 4 was a one generation attempt to recapture the glory days when Acura was the only player from Japan in this market segment. Based on the sales numbers, you can disregard 2011 because of things beyond Acura's control, they were never able to move a reasonable volume of cars compared to generation 3.
I am pretty sure they did not make a huge investment in tooling & product development to introduce the 4th generation with the intent of cutting their TL sales in half to “make it more exclusive”. That's is a good way to go out of business.
The Chairman statement reads like, OK guy you have had your shot at tier 1 now lets get back to what we do well.
Could be that generation 4 was a one generation attempt to recapture the glory days when Acura was the only player from Japan in this market segment. Based on the sales numbers, you can disregard 2011 because of things beyond Acura's control, they were never able to move a reasonable volume of cars compared to generation 3.
I am pretty sure they did not make a huge investment in tooling & product development to introduce the 4th generation with the intent of cutting their TL sales in half to “make it more exclusive”. That's is a good way to go out of business.
The Chairman statement reads like, OK guy you have had your shot at tier 1 now lets get back to what we do well.
01-09-2012, 04:49 PM
#356
I am not setting any special set of criteria other then the cars in question. I specifically said it was unscientific. The BMW 5 series that anyone who can breath can buy is simply what is available on the dealers lots today.
I posted what is on the lot at my BMW dealer & his are all 535’s so I looked in your & saturno_v’s home courts to be fair & found as was stated by both of you that indeed there were a lot of 528’s there but I also found the median price of in stock 5 series inventory was about $55/56K. No real strippers that saturno_v or you were talking about seeing.
After you post to further my unscientific look into I selected my BMW dealers Acura store which shares the same lot with his Porsche, Chevy & Subaru stores to be sure I had the same demographic customer base. What makes this somewhat compelling is Performance & Lieth are the only BMW/Acura dealers in the Research Triangle area. The next dealer for BMW is about 30 miles away & Acura maybe 60+
The total current Acura inventory at Performance is priced at 7 X $35.6K, 7 X $39K & one for $41.5K. Lieth has 14 X $36.4, 6 X $42K & 8 X 40K. This admittedly unscientific example does not go very far in supporting that the majority of TL buyers are legitimately cross shopping the 5 series with purchasing power to close the deal.
One other thought - I know please spare us - Acura/Honda management does not seem to believe saturno_v’s analyses of what their market is because they seem to be pretty busily changing the strategy announcing the new one in Detroit that looks like going back to the 3G strategy of a entry level luxury car with the ILX sedan with pricing “well below $30K” as the prime driver.
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Honda, Takanobu stated, “To be very honest, I’ am not satisfied with Acura.” He added, “Something has to be done to help it stand out, to be more unique and return to the sporty image it had when there was the Integra and NSX.”
I posted what is on the lot at my BMW dealer & his are all 535’s so I looked in your & saturno_v’s home courts to be fair & found as was stated by both of you that indeed there were a lot of 528’s there but I also found the median price of in stock 5 series inventory was about $55/56K. No real strippers that saturno_v or you were talking about seeing.
After you post to further my unscientific look into I selected my BMW dealers Acura store which shares the same lot with his Porsche, Chevy & Subaru stores to be sure I had the same demographic customer base. What makes this somewhat compelling is Performance & Lieth are the only BMW/Acura dealers in the Research Triangle area. The next dealer for BMW is about 30 miles away & Acura maybe 60+
The total current Acura inventory at Performance is priced at 7 X $35.6K, 7 X $39K & one for $41.5K. Lieth has 14 X $36.4, 6 X $42K & 8 X 40K. This admittedly unscientific example does not go very far in supporting that the majority of TL buyers are legitimately cross shopping the 5 series with purchasing power to close the deal.
One other thought - I know please spare us - Acura/Honda management does not seem to believe saturno_v’s analyses of what their market is because they seem to be pretty busily changing the strategy announcing the new one in Detroit that looks like going back to the 3G strategy of a entry level luxury car with the ILX sedan with pricing “well below $30K” as the prime driver.
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Honda, Takanobu stated, “To be very honest, I’ am not satisfied with Acura.” He added, “Something has to be done to help it stand out, to be more unique and return to the sporty image it had when there was the Integra and NSX.”
Furthermore, I also do not believe there are many 5 models with absolutely nothing added but I don't think it's your or my sampling that determines this because as much as low inventory levels for such trims support the notion, they also go against it at the same time because one could say they are selling them at quicker rates or are possibly more in demand. But this is really besides the point because, once again, that was not my point.
I also agree with your latter example, as scientific or unscientific as it may be. The majority of TL buyers are not seriously considering/cross shopping with a 5 (etc) also with the ability to close the deal but was that my point?
I recall it being something to the effect of the members at the top of TL spectrum which would be roughly mid $40k range (which there seems to be enough of in certain demographics based on your findings) having the ability to cross shop and close on a similar 5 (etc) which would probably be about $10k to $15k more, on average.
To further emphasize my point, I agree that if it's to be purchased in full than there probably is not a lot of consideration there but in financing or leasing which is the majority, $10k to $15k more is not a lot by any means to overcome or play around with to achieve comparable monthly payments, which is more of a focus for those actually considering the car, than just sticker prices because they actually investigate what it will truly cost.
Although it is highly variable, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point during the model years, a $55k 5 series or mid level sedan could already lease for the around the same money as a $46k TL SH advance, same term and conditions. I have seen those types of things many times when actually cross shopping and comparing vehicles also with the ability to close.
As far as your other thought, that's great but I don't see how relative it is to anything I said or the point of the discussion (unless it's to turn the thread into an Acura/TL bash party) but I disagree about the ILX, it's not a 3G strategy, it's an RSX strategy, 1G TSX at best, but again it's besides the point.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 01-09-2012 at 05:03 PM.
01-09-2012, 05:49 PM
#357
Instructor
What do you mean?? Almost any person that can fog a mirror can manage to put their butt on a BMW or a Mercedes nowadays if they want to....BMW is approaching production numbers of a mainstream car manufacturer.....I think the "distinguishing myself driving a BMW" is becoming a memory......sometimes I get the feeling that in Seattle there are more 3 Series than Civics....
It's like some of those who purchased an Acura, a better choice for their income should had been a Honda.
Regardless of an income level, many buy over their heads because of the want factor. Another example is leasing a car they couldn't afford if they purchased it. Now THAT is what I call a "Badge Want'er"
Sorry if I wasn't clear......I thought I was.
01-09-2012, 06:23 PM
#358
BEAR-AvHistory
When I said that I see plenty of stripper 528 and 535 I clearly specified lacking navigation, fancy seats and standard tires/wheels....the only things I can easily see, I'm not going to ask to any 5 Series driver the precise list of packages they put on......they may not be barebone strippers (again, as I clearly said before as I recall) but they lack some big ticket packages.....
It is very simple, the TL, again, has only 2 models (FWD and SH-AWD) while the 5 Series has 6......I clearly said that does not necessarily mean anything, however, the 5 Series user has more choices....for example if you want a V8 powered sedan, you are out of luck with the TL...
Did I specified a 5 Series?? I said a BMW......you can get a 128 or a 328.....
Again and again, I said BMW not a 5 Series.....a 328 carry a very different price tag than an M5....
I never said the majority of TL buyers cross shop the 5 Series (nobody really knows) but cross shopping does happen and it is definitely not trivial...only just in this forum you have many......I also posted few links of media publications that suggested some affinity....so is not our imagination...
What the Acura marketing stategy and product positioning (very lousy in my opinion and on a kamikaze course) has to do with the TL??
Acura problems are easy to fix if they took ther head out of their collective asses.....I give them a 30 second winning strategy for free right here:
1) Put the SH-AWD on the TSX pronto (including the Sportwagon) to elevate it to a true 3 Series/A4 fighter
2) A Type S/Type R TL model (with SH-AWD) with a turbocharged V6 and 400 or so HP. Make the TL a fully fledged A6/5 Series contender.
3) Kill the RL for good and replace it with a RWD or AWD exclusive platform and V8 engines.
4) A Halo car like a new NSX
5) A coupe/roadster along the lines of the S2000
6) Update the automatic transmissions and introduce DI
These steps would bring Acura solidly in tier 1 luxury market
He better be because frankly Acura marketing strategy flat out sucks...
I hope I'm wrong for Acura, but abandoning Tier 1 pursuit will be the fastest way to oblivion...we do not need another Buick.....the 4th gen is head and shoulder above the 3G and frankly I'm sorry for them for not selling more of them...maybe the styling is too polarizing, maybe Acura "cannot afford" to be that bold.....who knows....
When I said that I see plenty of stripper 528 and 535 I clearly specified lacking navigation, fancy seats and standard tires/wheels....the only things I can easily see, I'm not going to ask to any 5 Series driver the precise list of packages they put on......they may not be barebone strippers (again, as I clearly said before as I recall) but they lack some big ticket packages.....
saturno_v has made two points one that the 5 series sells more cars because it has more models then the TL.......not sure what the logic is
The other is mirror breath. I am not sure that anyone except those in saturno_v’s imagination who can breath can buy a BMW but that’s just me. IIRC a number of people here who I give credit for breathing since they are posting have said that a 5 series is out of their price range.
The BMW 5 series that anyone who can breath can buy is simply what is available on the dealers lots today.
This admittedly unscientific example does not go very far in supporting that the majority of TL buyers are legitimately cross shopping the 5 series with purchasing power to close the deal.
One other thought - I know please spare us - Acura/Honda management does not seem to believe saturno_v’s analyses of what their market is because they seem to be pretty busily changing the strategy announcing the new one in Detroit that looks like going back to the 3G strategy of a entry level luxury car with the ILX sedan with pricing “well below $30K” as the prime driver.
Acura problems are easy to fix if they took ther head out of their collective asses.....I give them a 30 second winning strategy for free right here:
1) Put the SH-AWD on the TSX pronto (including the Sportwagon) to elevate it to a true 3 Series/A4 fighter
2) A Type S/Type R TL model (with SH-AWD) with a turbocharged V6 and 400 or so HP. Make the TL a fully fledged A6/5 Series contender.
3) Kill the RL for good and replace it with a RWD or AWD exclusive platform and V8 engines.
4) A Halo car like a new NSX
5) A coupe/roadster along the lines of the S2000
6) Update the automatic transmissions and introduce DI
These steps would bring Acura solidly in tier 1 luxury market
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Honda, Takanobu stated, “To be very honest, I’ am not satisfied with Acura.” He added, “Something has to be done to help it stand out, to be more unique and return to the sporty image it had when there was the Integra and NSX.”[/
Could be that generation 4 was a one generation attempt to recapture the glory days when Acura was the only player from Japan in this market segment. Based on the sales numbers, you can disregard 2011 because of things beyond Acura's control, they were never able to move a reasonable volume of cars compared to generation 3.
I am pretty sure they did not make a huge investment in tooling & product development to introduce the 4th generation with the intent of cutting their TL sales in half to “make it more exclusive”. That's is a good way to go out of business.
The Chairman statement reads like, OK guy you have had your shot at tier 1 now lets get back to what we do well.
I am pretty sure they did not make a huge investment in tooling & product development to introduce the 4th generation with the intent of cutting their TL sales in half to “make it more exclusive”. That's is a good way to go out of business.
The Chairman statement reads like, OK guy you have had your shot at tier 1 now lets get back to what we do well.
Last edited by saturno_v; 01-09-2012 at 06:27 PM.
01-09-2012, 06:28 PM
#359
Suzuka Master
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Regardless of content just based on price as I said earlier I think a TL buyer could be a 3 series buyer if it fit their needs but most will say they are too small just like the BMW fan club is complaining they are getting to big.
Considering the entire Acura TL product line only sold 34K cars in 2010 I don’t believe there are enough mid spectrum Acura buyers available to support much analyses.
Can some of them afford a 5 series, Yes. Can some of the afford a 7 series, Yes. Can some buy a Ferrari, Yes. But - big but - they are the exception to the rule & more then likely are the guys here with multiple newer cars some/all of which are higher in cost then a 528.
Remember, I also had a TL because picking my grand kids up in a 2 door convertible DD was a pain in the butt as is driving around in an SUV. I used the pick-up truck till they got to big then went to get a Honda which I passed on because of its looks not the badge.
Family joke is it cost me $2500 extra per door to get something that looked nice.
01-09-2012, 08:45 PM
#360
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When I said that I see plenty of stripper 528 and 535 I clearly specified lacking navigation, fancy seats and standard tires/wheels....the only things I can easily see, I'm not going to ask to any 5 Series driver the precise list of packages they put on......they may not be barebone strippers (again, as I clearly said before as I recall) but they lack some big ticket packages.........
When I said that I see plenty of stripper 528 and 535 I clearly specified lacking navigation, fancy seats and standard tires/wheels....the only things I can easily see, I'm not going to ask to any 5 Series driver the precise list of packages they put on......they may not be barebone strippers (again, as I clearly said before as I recall) but they lack some big ticket packages.........
It is very simple, the TL, again, has only 2 models (FWD and SH-AWD) while the 5 Series has 6......I clearly said that does not necessarily mean anything, however, the 5 Series user has more choices....for example if you want a V8 powered sedan, you are out of luck with the TL...........
You quoted & were responding to Hamma Tyme’s post who was responding to jemkenn0’s post about the 5 series being overpriced. Did you change the subject from the 528 & we missed it or just randomly deside to add a nother series to the conversation that fit the template better?
I never said the majority of TL buyers cross shop the 5 Series (nobody really knows) but cross shopping does happen and it is definitely not trivial...only just in this forum you have many......I also posted few links of media publications that suggested some affinity....so is not our imagination...........