Swaybar and improving handling?
10-19-2011, 01:50 PM
#1
A6 and TL
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Swaybar and improving handling?
Recently I went on a spirited run in the "mountains" with my RWD car. At the meet I saw a few 3G TL 
that were modified that were also doing the "spirited run" in the "mountains".
In my RWD car when I take a curve at 60MPH it feels firm and planted but in the TL if I do it I feel like I will lose control any second. I was behind a 3G TL that had a sway bar installed and like all the RWD car he kept sliding his back end and seemed to have no problem taking curves at 80mph.
Since I am going to do alot more of these runs I would like to take my TL instead. The guy with the 3G TL had Excelerate swaybar..and that is what I am thinking of getting. I searched around and it seemed H&R is expensive but not worth the extra $100.
Now my question is what else can I do to improve the handling? Springs/Coilovers? Since my TL is 5AT the front swaybar also sucks but replacing that is a difficult task since you have to drop the front subframe.
Any suggestions are appreciated.
IHC- I would love to hear your input
!
that were modified that were also doing the "spirited run" in the "mountains". In my RWD car when I take a curve at 60MPH it feels firm and planted but in the TL if I do it I feel like I will lose control any second. I was behind a 3G TL that had a sway bar installed and like all the RWD car he kept sliding his back end and seemed to have no problem taking curves at 80mph.
Since I am going to do alot more of these runs I would like to take my TL instead. The guy with the 3G TL had Excelerate swaybar..and that is what I am thinking of getting. I searched around and it seemed H&R is expensive but not worth the extra $100.
Now my question is what else can I do to improve the handling? Springs/Coilovers? Since my TL is 5AT the front swaybar also sucks but replacing that is a difficult task since you have to drop the front subframe.
Any suggestions are appreciated.
IHC- I would love to hear your input
!
10-19-2011, 02:02 PM
#3
the rear would be more beneficial.
I upgraded from 6MT's 19mm to progress rsb 24mm.
Oversteer is healthy!
and Retarded, you covered and answered everything in your original post.
IHC is not posting in the 3g section any more because of topics like this.
He has explained the benefits of a larger RSB countless times over and over again.
if you would like more info, I hear GOOGLE has lots!
also, you can search for i hate cars and what he has to say about RSB's.
from this thread :
http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=731907
For the lazy....or I should say retarded.
Retarded, here are more links with IHC's input.
http://ww.tl.acurazine.com/forums/sh...php?p=12694194
I know you're retarded, BUTT STOP BEING LAZY!
I upgraded from 6MT's 19mm to progress rsb 24mm.
Oversteer is healthy!
and Retarded, you covered and answered everything in your original post.
IHC is not posting in the 3g section any more because of topics like this.
He has explained the benefits of a larger RSB countless times over and over again.
if you would like more info, I hear GOOGLE has lots!
also, you can search for i hate cars and what he has to say about RSB's.
Originally Posted by i hate cars
It will reduce body roll. It will take some or all of the understeer out meaning instead of the front tires breaking free first in a hard corner, the rear will slide out.
It's a balancing act between front stiffness and rear stiffness for overall balance of the car. With the Progress rear bar on mine in the soft setting, the tail will slide at the limit. Others have reported the car is neutral. The difference you should be aware of is the base 5AT cars like mine come with a hollow 25mm front bar. The base 6mt cars come with a 27mm hollow bar. The TL-S comes with a 27mm solid front bar. Once member with a TL-S reports the Progress bar gives him neutral handling which makes sense since he has the stiffest front bar offered by Acura. Keep in mind, going from a 17mm to a 24mm increases the spring rate by over 400%.
It basically goes:
Base 5AT 25mm hollow front 17mm rear
Base 6mt 27mm hollow front 20mm rear??
TL-S 27mm solid front 20mm rear
If you have a manual, you *might* try the bar in the firm setting but likely the soft setting will give you the best handling at the expense of a little more roll.
I just ordered the H&R solid 28mm front bar to balance my car out and because it rolls just a little too much for my tastes but I don't want to compromise ride quality anymore.
If you have the money, you could order the TL-S front swaybar for only $62 to compliment the Progress bar. Then you could also run the Progress on the firm setting to take more advantage of it.
So for the second part of your question, my car actually rode better with the Progress bar installed. Hitting uneven bumps in the road and going up driveways at an angle is much less annoying now. The initial bump is just a little harder but all you get is one small bump and it's over where before the bar you hit a bump or driveway and the car rocks. There's much less motion and drama going over bumps so even though it's harder, it feels like it rides better.
I would love to take a stock suspension TL, retaining all of the factory travel and install the H&R 28mm front and Progress 24mm rear. I think this would offer a great handling increase with little to no impact on ride quality. And best of all no one would know it's not stock.
Keep in mind, there are disadvantages to doing only swaybars but they're a great compromise for a daily driver.
Sorry for the novel but all I've been doing lately is researching front swaybars and just made the front swaybar purchase yesterday.
It's a balancing act between front stiffness and rear stiffness for overall balance of the car. With the Progress rear bar on mine in the soft setting, the tail will slide at the limit. Others have reported the car is neutral. The difference you should be aware of is the base 5AT cars like mine come with a hollow 25mm front bar. The base 6mt cars come with a 27mm hollow bar. The TL-S comes with a 27mm solid front bar. Once member with a TL-S reports the Progress bar gives him neutral handling which makes sense since he has the stiffest front bar offered by Acura. Keep in mind, going from a 17mm to a 24mm increases the spring rate by over 400%.
It basically goes:
Base 5AT 25mm hollow front 17mm rear
Base 6mt 27mm hollow front 20mm rear??
TL-S 27mm solid front 20mm rear
If you have a manual, you *might* try the bar in the firm setting but likely the soft setting will give you the best handling at the expense of a little more roll.
I just ordered the H&R solid 28mm front bar to balance my car out and because it rolls just a little too much for my tastes but I don't want to compromise ride quality anymore.
If you have the money, you could order the TL-S front swaybar for only $62 to compliment the Progress bar. Then you could also run the Progress on the firm setting to take more advantage of it.
So for the second part of your question, my car actually rode better with the Progress bar installed. Hitting uneven bumps in the road and going up driveways at an angle is much less annoying now. The initial bump is just a little harder but all you get is one small bump and it's over where before the bar you hit a bump or driveway and the car rocks. There's much less motion and drama going over bumps so even though it's harder, it feels like it rides better.
I would love to take a stock suspension TL, retaining all of the factory travel and install the H&R 28mm front and Progress 24mm rear. I think this would offer a great handling increase with little to no impact on ride quality. And best of all no one would know it's not stock.
Keep in mind, there are disadvantages to doing only swaybars but they're a great compromise for a daily driver.
Sorry for the novel but all I've been doing lately is researching front swaybars and just made the front swaybar purchase yesterday.
http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=731907
For the lazy....or I should say retarded.
Retarded, here are more links with IHC's input.
http://ww.tl.acurazine.com/forums/sh...php?p=12694194
It will swap ends on you with the stock 5at fsb and the Progress on firm. This is a 100% certainty if you push the limits.
I'm done writing novels on this. I'll leave it at this:
Larger rsb= more oversteer.
Larger fsb= more understeer.
The TL understeers when stock.
The 5at comes with a softer fsb than the 6mt and TL-S so factor that into your decision.
For turn-in sharpness you can't beat a larger fsb. It is a very nice improvement, just as much of an improvement as the rsb as long as you balance it with a much larger rsb.
The best would be upgrading both swaybars.
I'm done writing novels on this. I'll leave it at this:
Larger rsb= more oversteer.
Larger fsb= more understeer.
The TL understeers when stock.
The 5at comes with a softer fsb than the 6mt and TL-S so factor that into your decision.
For turn-in sharpness you can't beat a larger fsb. It is a very nice improvement, just as much of an improvement as the rsb as long as you balance it with a much larger rsb.
The best would be upgrading both swaybars.
If the rear is a lot stiffer than the front, the rear will slide first. If the front is stiffer than the rear like most every factory car, the front end breaks free first. To take advantage of a larger FSB, the rear bar needs to be done first and it needs to be significantly stiffer than the front otherwise you end up with a worse than stock handling balance.
I can only speak for the '04-'06 base TLs but it goes:
5at- 25mm hollow front, 17mm solid rear.
6mt- 27mm hollow front, 20mm solild
TL-S- 27mm solid front, 20mm solid rear.
I would guess that not only does the 6mt have larger swaybars, it might possibly be tuned for less understeer assuming it uses the same springs which I think it does.
This thread is on the right track, it's good to see people trying to balance and match the front and rear swaybars to each other instead of automatically going with the largest.
For the money and ease of tuning, I think the TL-S front with the Progress rear bar is an unbeatable combo. Balance will be very good and you will have a significant reduction in roll along with much less understeer and possibly a little oversteer. The 27/24 is hard to beat.
My current combo is a 28/24 combo with the 28 on soft and the 24 on firm, Konis, a-spec front springs and a custom rear rate of around 500 or 550lbs.
The H&R bar is significantly stiffer than the TL-S bar even though it's only 1mm difference. Maybe it's a different type of metal but it's a very big difference that I was not expecting. It threw my handling balance back into stock like understeer even with the front on soft and the rear on firm. I had to get a set of custom MUCH stiffer rear springs to balance it out again. Luckily the rears don't affect front seat ride quality much but the rear seat passengers might complain at this spring rate. I want to be clear, ride quality for the driver is still very good, barely stiffer (as perceived by the driver) than the a-spec rears.
Honestly, I think the best balance would be the Comptech 22mm for the 5at cars. The Comptech and maybe the Progress if you like the tail out action for the 6mt, and the Progress for the TL-S. Putting a Progress 24mm in the firm position on a stock 5at will not make it any quicker at the track, it will make it tail happy. You're literally running stiffer rear than front bar.
My results were interesting and I can't fully explain a couple things but I'll start with the things that I expected. Increasing the rear stiffness whether springs or swaybars reduced understeer and increasing front stiffness increased understeer.
Larger front bar increased wheelspin when exiting a turn and made the front inside tire easier to lock up when entering a turn. The big bars just try and lift the inside wheels. The counter to this would be stiffer springs.
Adding a larger front bar in addition to the rear bar really helped high speed stability. The rear bar alone showed no improvement but the front really made it feel more planted and less scary and twitchy.
One thing I did not expect was the turn-in improvement from the added front stiffness. For some reason, the super stiff front bar made turn in extremely sharp. The car just wants to respond to the steering wheel and change directions very easily. I expected the opposite result but this was a pleasant surprise. It's very stable at high speeds, not twitchy at all but when you ask it to turn, it responds quickly.
Adjustable shocks are a must to bring your combo together. I originally used the Konis with my stock suspension. I later added a 24mm rsb, then the a-spec springs, then the fsb and finally the custom rear rates, all with the same Konis (the rears were replaced once). It's kind of neat how it works.... On stock springs, I always ran the Konis near full soft. Above that, they felt unnecessarily harsh. Turn them up half way and the ride was too harsh. After raising the spring rate so much (springs and swaybars), I have them just under 3/4 of the way to full stiff and the ride feels normal. It's required to control the rebound of the stiffer springs. In fact, stiffening the shocks to 3/4 from stiff so they could control the new suspension resulted in a better ride and much better handling.
I enjoyed this very much because it's the first daily driver street car I've set up for handling like this one stage at a time. My other cars I threw all parts at it at once and I never got to see how they interacted. I was wrong about several assumptions I originally had and especially how to setup FWD suspension. I'm happy with it now but if I had it to do over again I would skip the 28mm fsb and just stick with the TL-S bar. I gained performance but for a daily driver I don't know if the slight loss of ride quality (due to the stiffer rear springs and the extra work and money was worth it. On the other hand, with a sticky tire like the NT05 I might not have been happy with just the 27/24 combo. This combo has very little body roll on ordinary tires while maintaining a-spec like ride quality.
I hope this makes sense when I read it in the morning, I'm practically falling asleep right now.
5at- 25mm hollow front, 17mm solid rear.
6mt- 27mm hollow front, 20mm solild
TL-S- 27mm solid front, 20mm solid rear.
I would guess that not only does the 6mt have larger swaybars, it might possibly be tuned for less understeer assuming it uses the same springs which I think it does.
This thread is on the right track, it's good to see people trying to balance and match the front and rear swaybars to each other instead of automatically going with the largest.
For the money and ease of tuning, I think the TL-S front with the Progress rear bar is an unbeatable combo. Balance will be very good and you will have a significant reduction in roll along with much less understeer and possibly a little oversteer. The 27/24 is hard to beat.
My current combo is a 28/24 combo with the 28 on soft and the 24 on firm, Konis, a-spec front springs and a custom rear rate of around 500 or 550lbs.
The H&R bar is significantly stiffer than the TL-S bar even though it's only 1mm difference. Maybe it's a different type of metal but it's a very big difference that I was not expecting. It threw my handling balance back into stock like understeer even with the front on soft and the rear on firm. I had to get a set of custom MUCH stiffer rear springs to balance it out again. Luckily the rears don't affect front seat ride quality much but the rear seat passengers might complain at this spring rate. I want to be clear, ride quality for the driver is still very good, barely stiffer (as perceived by the driver) than the a-spec rears.
Honestly, I think the best balance would be the Comptech 22mm for the 5at cars. The Comptech and maybe the Progress if you like the tail out action for the 6mt, and the Progress for the TL-S. Putting a Progress 24mm in the firm position on a stock 5at will not make it any quicker at the track, it will make it tail happy. You're literally running stiffer rear than front bar.
My results were interesting and I can't fully explain a couple things but I'll start with the things that I expected. Increasing the rear stiffness whether springs or swaybars reduced understeer and increasing front stiffness increased understeer.
Larger front bar increased wheelspin when exiting a turn and made the front inside tire easier to lock up when entering a turn. The big bars just try and lift the inside wheels. The counter to this would be stiffer springs.
Adding a larger front bar in addition to the rear bar really helped high speed stability. The rear bar alone showed no improvement but the front really made it feel more planted and less scary and twitchy.
One thing I did not expect was the turn-in improvement from the added front stiffness. For some reason, the super stiff front bar made turn in extremely sharp. The car just wants to respond to the steering wheel and change directions very easily. I expected the opposite result but this was a pleasant surprise. It's very stable at high speeds, not twitchy at all but when you ask it to turn, it responds quickly.
Adjustable shocks are a must to bring your combo together. I originally used the Konis with my stock suspension. I later added a 24mm rsb, then the a-spec springs, then the fsb and finally the custom rear rates, all with the same Konis (the rears were replaced once). It's kind of neat how it works.... On stock springs, I always ran the Konis near full soft. Above that, they felt unnecessarily harsh. Turn them up half way and the ride was too harsh. After raising the spring rate so much (springs and swaybars), I have them just under 3/4 of the way to full stiff and the ride feels normal. It's required to control the rebound of the stiffer springs. In fact, stiffening the shocks to 3/4 from stiff so they could control the new suspension resulted in a better ride and much better handling.
I enjoyed this very much because it's the first daily driver street car I've set up for handling like this one stage at a time. My other cars I threw all parts at it at once and I never got to see how they interacted. I was wrong about several assumptions I originally had and especially how to setup FWD suspension. I'm happy with it now but if I had it to do over again I would skip the 28mm fsb and just stick with the TL-S bar. I gained performance but for a daily driver I don't know if the slight loss of ride quality (due to the stiffer rear springs and the extra work and money was worth it. On the other hand, with a sticky tire like the NT05 I might not have been happy with just the 27/24 combo. This combo has very little body roll on ordinary tires while maintaining a-spec like ride quality.
I hope this makes sense when I read it in the morning, I'm practically falling asleep right now.
I guess I could hint at my next change. Most likely a stiffer RSB will be in this car's future.
I overlooked motive traction and concentrated solely on handling balance. I can keep the overall handling balance and decrease wheel spin/lock in the corners by softening the rear springs and increasing the RSB size/stiffness. I'm looking forward to trying this out.
I overlooked motive traction and concentrated solely on handling balance. I can keep the overall handling balance and decrease wheel spin/lock in the corners by softening the rear springs and increasing the RSB size/stiffness. I'm looking forward to trying this out.
Yep. From what I've found, the Tl-s has stiffer rear springs in comparison to the front so it doesn't require quite as much rsb compared to the other models. Pretty sure the base 6mt and 5at use the same spring rates from my limited info and based on their front to rear swaybar choices. The aspec springs give a little less understeer so that's something to take into consideration. Looking at spring rates, many aftermarket springs should INCREASE understeer.
I know you're retarded, BUTT STOP BEING LAZY!
Last edited by Steven Bell; 10-19-2011 at 08:33 PM. Reason: Merged Posts.
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10-19-2011, 02:50 PM
#5
Drifting
I purchased the progress adjustable 24mm rear sway bar too for my TL-S and the difference was night and day!!! reason I purchased mine was because i went on a mountain run with some guys most had evos and my TL was a boat!!!! freakin scary to drive even with being lowered lol.... the rear sway bar makes the car much more enjoyable to take in turns and curves!!! for the price it is a no brainer!
haha and yes searching first is much better on a general topic such as this.
haha and yes searching first is much better on a general topic such as this.
10-19-2011, 05:52 PM
#6
^^^I concur, the difference is noticeable even on the soft setting. I was being a weksos and now have to go back and change it to the hard setting.
To save the OP from reading all that good information, for a non Type-S, I believe the consensus was that a Progress RSB combined with a Type-S FSB was the most balanced.
To save the OP from reading all that good information, for a non Type-S, I believe the consensus was that a Progress RSB combined with a Type-S FSB was the most balanced.
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10-19-2011, 08:34 PM
#8
Team Owner
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I purchased the progress adjustable 24mm rear sway bar too for my TL-S and the difference was night and day!!! reason I purchased mine was because i went on a mountain run with some guys most had evos and my TL was a boat!!!! freakin scary to drive even with being lowered lol.... the rear sway bar makes the car much more enjoyable to take in turns and curves!!! for the price it is a no brainer!
haha and yes searching first is much better on a general topic such as this.
haha and yes searching first is much better on a general topic such as this.
+1...I did the same thing-LOVE IT!
10-20-2011, 12:38 PM
#9
OP I believe when you say the Excelerate bar you are referring to the Progress 24mm adjustable Rear Sway Bar. It's an excellent upgrade and helps neutralize the understeer inherent in the FWD TL. You can see more info on the following link:
http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-225595.aspx
http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-225595.aspx
10-20-2011, 09:11 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (1)
OP I believe when you say the Excelerate bar you are referring to the Progress 24mm adjustable Rear Sway Bar. It's an excellent upgrade and helps neutralize the understeer inherent in the FWD TL. You can see more info on the following link:
http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-225595.aspx
http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-225595.aspx
10-28-2011, 10:38 AM
#15
BANNED
iTrader: (33)
justnspace, if i have a type-s FSB and a progress RSB...what setting should i put the RSB at?
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lumyeinjun (05-09-2012)
10-29-2011, 08:16 PM
#19
Resident Dingo
I suppose you could play around with it and try the soft setting first, you may end up liking it more. Just choose the setting you prefer.. easy!
11-02-2011, 12:02 PM
#24
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stiff it is.
11-02-2011, 12:32 PM
#25
3G TL/2G MDX Owner
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there is a group buy going on for the progress bar....if you need further convincing. happy cornering!
05-07-2012, 10:03 AM
#29
i ordered the progress rear and he H&R front, i will be installing this weekend, I also got SS lines to match my hawk pads and cross drilled rotors
cant wait till i take it out for a spin
cant wait till i take it out for a spin
05-09-2012, 01:39 PM
#32
Recently I went on a spirited run in the "mountains" with my RWD car. At the meet I saw a few 3G TL that were modified that were also doing the "spirited run" in the "mountains".
In my RWD car when I take a curve at 60MPH it feels firm and planted but in the TL if I do it I feel like I will lose control any second. I was behind a 3G TL that had a sway bar installed and like all the RWD car he kept sliding his back end and seemed to have no problem taking curves at 80mph.
that were modified that were also doing the "spirited run" in the "mountains". In my RWD car when I take a curve at 60MPH it feels firm and planted but in the TL if I do it I feel like I will lose control any second. I was behind a 3G TL that had a sway bar installed and like all the RWD car he kept sliding his back end and seemed to have no problem taking curves at 80mph.
Also, recall Best Motoring's comparison between the 2008 is350, G35 and TL type-s. The FWD beat the two RWD competitors by two seconds at Willow Springs Raceway and as a result, the 3G type-s has held one of the fastest lap times at that track ever since.
I wouldn't recommend learning to take corners in a mountain road; leave that to the experienced drivers. You don't want to wreck your car up there; it's much safer to exceed the limits of your car on road course or auto cross course because there typically aren't metal guard rails ten feet from the driving line. Go back to canyon runs after you learn your car better.
And yes, there is a consensus that the Progress RSB is the best bang for the buck suspension mod for the 3G TL. If you're just getting the rear bar, put it on soft.
Please, stop with the posts about how your RWD car handles better than our incompetent FWD cars. It's just not true.
Also, many of us answered your question in your original "making the TL handle better" thread. If you haven't gotten better tires yet, do that. A good sticky summer tire will allow your suspension really shine. You won't really feel the full benefits of the Progress RSB if you're still running a sub-par tire.
Last edited by lumyeinjun; 05-09-2012 at 01:42 PM.
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05-10-2012, 01:55 PM
#35
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iTrader: (33)
^sold it. tho i have a type-s and the sway bar is more sought after than base models.
05-10-2012, 01:59 PM
#37
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
05-10-2012, 03:06 PM
#38
Team Owner
I was serious when I told you this the first time, a driving school would be the best mod for you. It's not that a car can't take a corner as fast because it's a FWD, FWD cars actually usually have more overall grip than their RDW rivals (see comparison between 3G TL vs is350, G35 and 335i on the skid pad, the TL pulls more g's than all three of the competitors).
Also, recall Best Motoring's comparison between the 2008 is350, G35 and TL type-s. The FWD beat the two RWD competitors by two seconds at Willow Springs Raceway and as a result, the 3G type-s has held one of the fastest lap times at that track ever since.
I wouldn't recommend learning to take corners in a mountain road; leave that to the experienced drivers. You don't want to wreck your car up there; it's much safer to exceed the limits of your car on road course or auto cross course because there typically aren't metal guard rails ten feet from the driving line. Go back to canyon runs after you learn your car better.
And yes, there is a consensus that the Progress RSB is the best bang for the buck suspension mod for the 3G TL. If you're just getting the rear bar, put it on soft.
Please, stop with the posts about how your RWD car handles better than our incompetent FWD cars. It's just not true.
Also, many of us answered your question in your original "making the TL handle better" thread. If you haven't gotten better tires yet, do that. A good sticky summer tire will allow your suspension really shine. You won't really feel the full benefits of the Progress RSB if you're still running a sub-par tire.
Also, recall Best Motoring's comparison between the 2008 is350, G35 and TL type-s. The FWD beat the two RWD competitors by two seconds at Willow Springs Raceway and as a result, the 3G type-s has held one of the fastest lap times at that track ever since.
I wouldn't recommend learning to take corners in a mountain road; leave that to the experienced drivers. You don't want to wreck your car up there; it's much safer to exceed the limits of your car on road course or auto cross course because there typically aren't metal guard rails ten feet from the driving line. Go back to canyon runs after you learn your car better.
And yes, there is a consensus that the Progress RSB is the best bang for the buck suspension mod for the 3G TL. If you're just getting the rear bar, put it on soft.
Please, stop with the posts about how your RWD car handles better than our incompetent FWD cars. It's just not true.
Also, many of us answered your question in your original "making the TL handle better" thread. If you haven't gotten better tires yet, do that. A good sticky summer tire will allow your suspension really shine. You won't really feel the full benefits of the Progress RSB if you're still running a sub-par tire.
Acura does an amazing job with suspension and this is why the TL was quicker than the IS and G. I'm used to cars like my GN where springs and swaybars alone aren't enough. I had to change the instant center, mounting points, most of the suspension hard parts like control arms, and basically modify all suspension geometry to get it to handle like a modern car. The TL only requires a few cheap mods to handle with the big boys.
I fully agree with the driving school advice. It's always funny to see people take their exotic car to the track for the first time only to get significantly beaten by a car like the TL. The driver is the #1 mod you can do for quicker lap times followed by tires and then RSB.
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