harddrivin1le

This magazine article doesn't mention a thing about "pinging," spark knock, pre-ignition, valve-chatter, etc.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4459

You've repeatedly used that very same article as "proof" that the TL Type S has world-class brakes (because it does well in single, cold stops at relatively low speeds, where virtually any car has enough brake to lock all 4 wheels and invoke ABS - meaning that GRIP is the main component at dictating stopping distances at those speeds).

Here's all they said about the engine:

"Although it lacks the gusto of the other two here, it’s by far the smoothest. Drive the car in a civil manner, and it revs effortlessly, providing seamless power delivery from idle all the way to its 6800-rpm redline. Drive it hard, and VTEC makes its presence known, as the intake cams change profiles at 4950 rpm, providing an extra kick higher in the rev range...'This V-6 is very nice, despite having the least amount of power of the three. The power delivery is smooth, and the VTEC makes this thing a hoot when you get on it...'

Therefore, Acura TL Type S engines DO NOT "ping." They can't, since it didn't happen in that magazine's test car. All of them run perfectly - just like the magazine said.

joelsaxton

Perhaps Acura thinks it will be more cost effective not to address the ping issue? Doesn't seem like it would be, but just maybe they think it would be worth it.

xtralight

Post deleted.

MD_2007_TLS

Mine still pings at 11,000 miles. It is getting worse and more frequent.

They have to fix this!

harddrivin1le

One individual on here claims that no problem can exist unless it's reported by one specific magazine article (i.e. the "ROAD AND TRACK" comparison test). Their test car didn't "ping" while they performed limited testing on it over a very short period of time and the magazine praised the engine for it's smoothness. Therefore, TL-S cars don't ping.

Fortunately, I don't subscribe to that flawed, myopic "logic."

The "pinging" issue is legitimate and it's LOUSY! Mine doesn't do it, but it could start at any moment. Or, I could already be running a retarded spark and be unaware of it, since the problem can still be controlled by the knock sensors and ECU.

If it's going to start "pinging" it will hopefully do so before next Monday. That way they can "fix" that just like they're going to "fix" by groaning brakes.

One guy on here claimed that a software "fix" was in the works, then seemingly dropped off the planet when I asked him for specifics. Another guys claims to be running an Acura "Beta" version of the software and says that not only fixed the problem. but yielded a significant gain in power.

Bearcat94

Perhaps you missed this post: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ng#post1864123

This is the 4th time in 3 pages you've tried to threadjack this topic. I respectfully request that you STFU unless you have something meaningful to add to the topic.

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Have you taken it to the dealer and contacted Client Services? The more cases that are added to Acura's "issues list" the better the chance for a fix.

harddrivin1le

Nope, I missed no point.

You repeatedly insisted that the results and conclusions formed in that one test were some kind of irrefutable gold standard in your attempt to somehow "prove" that brakes that are smaller than those used in a STOCK 2,800 pound Civic are "good enough" in a car that's 900 pounds heavier.

The same article mentioned nothing at all about "valve chatter," "pinging, " etc.
In fact, they said is was THE SMOOTHEST ENGINE in the group. THE
SMOOTHEST!

Applying your logic, there can't be a problem.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4460


"Although it lacks the gusto of the other two here, it’s by far the smoothest. Drive the car in a civil manner, and it revs effortlessly, providing seamless power delivery from idle all the way to its 6800-rpm redline. Drive it hard, and VTEC makes its presence known, as the intake cams change profiles at 4950 rpm, providing an extra kick higher in the rev range...'This V-6 is very nice, despite having the least amount of power of the three. The power delivery is smooth, and the VTEC makes this thing a hoot when you get on it...'

joelsaxton

Ok guys, enough. We all get the point. Any continued jousting here will take focus away from the topic.

Let's see if anyone here has info relevant to the ping issue - namely, is acura going to issue TSB? Are they going to do ANYTHING AT ALL about this? Or will it be what one owner mentioned his Acura mechanic told him: the TL-S is "supposed to ping"..

Bearcat94

x2

joelsaxton

Here are Bionicjoggingsuit's relevant posts, in case anyone needs refreshing:

May 11th, 2007:
"Well guess what fellow TL Type S owners? We all own cars that are "supposed to ping". Yes, that is what the service writer told me when I picked my car up yesterday. He stated that he called the Acura Tech Service Line and the person on the other end said that there have been HUNDREDS of documented cases of 2007 Type S's that make this same pinging / spark knock noise. He stated further that there is no fix and that what this motor does. That's great! I'm so glad that I have many more years to come of pure pinging satisfaction. I've driven alot of crappy cars in my lifetime and not one of them was engineered to ping and make engine noises under normal driving conditions. I have started a case with Acura corporate and will continue to beat this dead horse until I get a satisfactory solution."

Sep 13th, 2007:
"I hear you and challenge anyone to go pick ANY new out there, and it will not ping like the TL-S type does. That is my entire point. $9,000 KIA basic transportion- no pinging. My friend's 1992 Honda Prelude with 389,000 miles on original motor- no pinging, my $38,000 TL-S type- constant pinging. That is what is wrong with the picture."


Sep 27th, 2007:
"My dealer requested that my car be brought in for the Acura Field Rep, who flew in from California, to test drive the car for himself. I did so and it no longer pings / pre-detonates / sputters / chatters / etc.

Here is what I was told was done to my car:
1. A chemical solvent was introduced into the heads to clean any carbon accumulation.
2. The factory software was erased and reloaded.
3. The spark plugs were replaced because the chemical solvent fouled them.

Now, I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy so here is my opinion and only that- my opinion:
I believe that the valves / heads probably did need to be cleaned because of what was going on- that makes sense. The field rep brought his own software with him. They loaded THAT software, not what was already on hand at the dealership. The car has not pinged since, after 150 miles of my normal driving habits.

And here is what is different (besides not pinging): The car pulls a lot harder. It has a much more dramatic increase in acceleration when the second cam profile comes on. The powerband is very different from what we started with. Before it felt like a linear, controlled wheezing, now the power hits in the middle and comes on harder. The car seems to breathe when you open it up. I kind of noticed it when I went to pass a slow coffee sipper on the way to work; I think I sucked some of the paint off of his driver side mirror when I went past him! The car feels like it has A LOT more power- like 20 more horsepower- like the 20 more horsepower that Acura needs to even the spec sheet with the G35-S.

Bottom line- I think I may have the new version of software, remapped and ping free. I may be beta testing for Acura. They do read this thread so keep posting."

If anyone has any experiences to add along these lines it would be helpful. I for one own a "pinger" so I am eager to get this problem fixed.

<<se7en>>

If they actually read this thread then read this Acura:

"We all want the remapping, so get on with it! A lot of pre-buyers nationwide read this forum and you're bound to catch heat about this issue in the form of slow sales and reputation degradation."

Nuff said!

trancemission

x3 this is the first and final warning.

MD_2007_TLS

Yes MANY times and yes MANY times.

I was on this thread from the beginning - post #2 on page 1!

I'm hitting the same walls as everyone else. Nothing new to report so I've mostly just been watching waiting for some good news.

My patience is running out...

Bearcat94

Right. Sorry. I don't blame you. I am just now where you were when you originally posted. ~6k miles. I haven't had as much wait time or stonewalling or whatever yet. I didn't realize you'd been having the problem for so long.

Bionicjoggingsuite's "non-dealer" software is what I find most hopeful.

I think it makes sense that he'd feel some additional power/response. If the ECU is retarding timing, say 5*, then wouldn't you "release" some un-tapped power by getting the timing back where it belongs without knocking?

harddrivin1le

Acura might issue a TSB once people start showing up with burned out piston tops.

Engine tear-downs and replacement pistons cost Acura real money to perform under warranty. That reality might prompt them to issue a TSB (or recall) to install new ECU software. What impact that has on power output remains to be seen.

I'm under the impression that the problem is far more common than many assume. The problem can probably be controlled (and hence, "masked") by the knock sensors and ECU in many cases. The driver would therefore be unaware of the problem, since he/she wouldn't hear it. Either way, power output and fuel economy suffer.

joelsaxton

One thing I have noticed is that the fuel economy is less than I expected, perhaps in part due to the spark-knock problem.

awilson529

My fuel economy SUCKS!

Another thing: While just cruising (with A/C off, so don't blame that), this car really hunts for the right timing. My car doesn't ping, yet (~3,000 miles) but this hunting for timing leads my to believe my car is reducing, advancing, reducing, advancing timing constantly!


I'm sick of Acura. I can't wait to get back into a Subaru. '09 STI, anyone?

Acura:

If you read this, your Quality Control department really needs to get it together. You're loosing tons of customers because of your sweep it under the rug mentality.

joelsaxton

Acura has said some amazing things to me, too. When I originally took the car in for pinging, they said they tweaked the exhaust system and that should help the problem - it didn't. When I brought the car back in a second time due to continued pinging, I mentioned that the RL didn't have a spark-knock problem and it had the same engine. The mechanic said that the RL has a completely different engine than the TL-S. I told him he was wrong. But he was adamant that they were completely different engines. So adamant that he almost convinced me. I left the dealership shaking my head.

FRST4DR

Well after having a visit with my local dealer and no luck on getting it fixed and no hope on being fixed and then talking to a friend of a friend who works at a dealer in California and no luck or hope, then calling client services and no luck. I then spoke with my sales person were I bought the car (which is out of state from were I live) and told him about how a dealer fixed Bionicjoggingsuit's problem and what they did. He told me that makes sense and that he was going to try and get me in touch with the right people. To give him a few days though and he would get back to me. Hopefully I can get some information and share. I at least now feel like someone is trying to help me get this issue resolved.

I hate cars

Same thing my non-"S" 06. At first I thought it could be the AC compressor cycling on and off but it's not. The hunting is retarding/advancing timing so you are getting the pinging, it's just not audible to the naked ear yet.

awilson529

Excuse my language, but FUCK this car. I spent $35,xxx cash on a piece of shit. I really miss my Suby.

I hate cars

Believe me, I feel you. The really bad thing is you're just a reflash (new timing map) away from having a nice running car but Acura still hasn't admitted to the problem. Gas mileage, power, drivability should all be improved.

A little off topic but what worries me is most people don't notice the pinging at first and as the miles go on, it gets worse. Ever see a piston that has lived life in an engine with constant minor pinging? It looks like someone took a tiny punch and punched a million tiny little divits into the piston, to the point that the piston loses material in certain areas. That becomes a hot spot and now you went from mild preignition from an aggressive timing map to an actual physical problem with the motor that may or may not be fixed (the pinging, not piston) from a different map.

My only advise to people that plan to keep the cars for many years is to run high octane gas in the form of 100 unleaded to protect the motor until hopefully Acura releases the revised timing maps to dealers. Yes, I know you shouldn't have to run it but the only other alternative right now is to risk damage.

joelsaxton

All we have here is 91.

I'm into this car for the long term, so I really hope I don't end up with damaged cylinders six years down the line.

I hate cars

I know how bad this sucks but you need to find a source. If you buy a decent amount, you can usually get it for ~ $1.00 more than premium. Most ATV shops or 1/4 mile tracks carry it. As a last resort you can try VP or other manufacturers directly. A little more expensive is adding a couple gallons of tolulene or xylene from the paint store or Home Depot. Again, I wouldn't stand for this and it sounds very troublesome but I don't see another solution right now. If you're not actually hearing it, you might be ok with 91. If you can hear it with your ears, definately get some higher octane. If you find a good source on 100 octane, you might only be out $40 a month over premium.

joelsaxton

I can hear it with my ears, but it is intermittent. Usually the engine sounds fine. But still, it really pisses me off when I do hear it, especially since I only use 91. Soooo unseemly to have such sounds coming from a $40k car.

Bearcat94

These guys are surveying me to death. Had an online survey in my e-mail regarding my recent service visit where the Pinging issue was one of the items "addressed".

I noted that my car was not yet "repaired". And then, although, I don't know if it'll do any good or not, but put this in the comments section of the survey:

joelsaxton

Excellent work, Bearcat.

deepvee

Has anyone had the "EGR" valve replaced to solve this pinging problem?
I have experienced this years ago with an American car and it solved the problem. Our local factory rep agreed with me and was his first diagnosis, since no "codes" are appearing. They ordered a new one, so I'll let you all know what becomes of it.

I hate cars

I asked the same thing a bunch of pages back and no one answered. I was thinking the same thing at first especially since it seems to be only at partial throttle and not WOT. But since then, the revised timing maps seemed to cure the problem. I think the "tune" on these cars are maxed out and sometimes overly aggressive from the factory.

Bearcat94

If the knock sensor is doing what it is supposed to (knock detection then timing adjustment), would you expect codes to appear? There are posts here about being able to "see" the timing being adjusted during the knock events.

Can you give some insight into how the EGR valve would effect this problem?

I hate cars

EGR recirculates exhaust gas through the intake. It dillutes the mixture and cools combustion temps. This reduces the NOx emissions. It also costs some power. To get some of the power back, the computer advances ignition timing when egr is on. If the computer calls for EGR but it doesn't work, the additional spark advance will cause pinging.

joelsaxton

Then why would Bionicjoggingsuit say that the car seems more powerful after the ECU upgrade that eliminated the pinging?

I hate cars

A couple reasons. The first is something that hasn't really been brought up.... Pre-ignition and detonation alone will reduce power by itself regardless of whether timing is being pulled. The sound you hear is the bang of the air/fuel going off too early, huge pressure spike, and trying to push the piston which is moving a good 400 feet per second or greater backwards the wrong way.

The second is the computer rarely pulls timing in 1 degree increments. It may be pulling 10 degrees or more to get the pinging under control. Once the threshold is crossed and pinging starts, you're running less timing than if you had a proper timing map in the first place.

joelsaxton

I get it now.

I get this knocking if I accelerate too hard (going from lower rpm ~2k to hi rpm ~5k) and it kind of sounds like the engine has diarrhea.

Do you know how long engines would generally last with such a problem? I suspect I could go 6-7 years before the consequences of this pinging are realized. By then the car would be out of warranty.

This morning I called in Acura corporate yet again to report this problem.

I hate cars

If it's true pinging, it could be tomorrow or 5 years.

I've had it so bad when my secondary fuel pump failed that even though I lifted the second I heard it (maybe two seconds at most), I had two blown headgaskets.

So far, no one that I know of has broken anything. In the meantime, you're hammering the rod bearings and putting a beating on the pistons and headgaskets. When you hear the sound, you're getting cylinder pressures MUCH higher than even a nitrous or supercharged TL will ever see even at WOT. After seeing first hand what detonation does to a motor (I broke 3 motors from the age of 17-20 from lack of tuning knowlege) that I could not drive my TL with it constantly pinging. Maybe that's just me because I plan to keep the car for 10 years.

joelsaxton

I got the extended warranty because I too want to keep it for a while.

Yours pings constantly?

S power

Mine pings if I lightly hit the gas at around 2-3k rpm. Sad part is when I'm at a stop light and the car(old car) beside me has his window down. Then green light as we take off, all everyone can hear is tick, tick tick tick tick !!! That is embarrassing! Now I just let everyone go first.

joelsaxton

yikes, mine's certainly not THAT bad.

Did you call Acura about it?

dingdongman

I regularly, daily, drive 120 mph +.
all hard, high rpm, banging the rev limiter as designed.
it provides some awful noises over a bridge at 115, with high rpm because I can hear the motor off of the retaining wall of the bridge where just hwy 120 mph driving alone would provide too much road and interior noise that hearing is reduced significantly to where you hear nothing but sirens on your head
the noises I hear coming from my tls never came from my NSX and sound as if these engines won't be lasting a lifetime...
I have resigned myself to not getting another acura...makes me sad though. soo many years, soo. many acuras and memories

have been searching my home, ebay, for an nsx to hold me over until I can save a bit for an m6. went for a drive in one on Monday...let's just say it doesnt ping!

again, fond memories of slinging a blown and mapped nsx around Watkins Glenn while being passed by middle aged women

someone has to talk to bernie @ Davis acura of Langhorn Pa and get his feedback on this issue. is someone near Philly?

**one finger iPhone typing, sry**

S power

As i've read in this thread, only one person have the problem solved. Plus, this will be my last Acura for the next few month. Looking for a different car.