markehmark

I have a 2005 6MT (called the "Dynamic" package in Canada) TL with the same problem.

It started around 2000KM (sorry guys, no miles up here), and was exclusive to 3rd gear. Oddly enough, the car exhibited absolutely no signs of any shifting problems prior to this.

It took me awhile, but I convinced myself first that it was not me (i.e., that there was a genuine problem with the car itself) and then went for a drive with the dealership shop foreman and thankfully it happened to him on the ride. He said they've never seen this before (not a lot of Dynamics sold in Canada - mostly autos).

They replaced some syncros (which happened to be on back-order and took awhile to get) and the problem persisted almost immediately thereafter.

I brought it back and we couldn't replicate the problem again.

After awhile, it got worse and happened more frequently. Then things got even worse. I couldn't get the car into reverse. After trying for a few minutes - running through all gears, driving forward, etc. a few times, it would go, but there was no one fix, and one time my wife got stranded at work for 1/2 an hour trying to back out of a spot she couldn't drive forward out of.

One other thing that was odd happened at this time as well. I tried a bunch of things to ascertain the symptoms of the problem and also noticed that I couldn't find 5th at all when I was driving the car between 0 and 20KM/hr. Not that anyone would ever drive the thing that way (and I didn't try driving it like that - just threw it into neutral and tried to go through the gears while moving to see if the problem was exclusive to 3rd or not), but it was interesting that 5th wouldn't even find its way in until I broke the 20KM barrier. Maybe that's the way these cars work, but oddly enough, 4th and 6th went in effortlessly.

Anyway, I took the car back to the dealer and had trouble replicating the reverse probelm (now focussing upon it instead of the 3rd gear issue), but I drove a tech around until it happened again (switching seats to let him drive once I replicated the problem), and then neither he nor I could get it into reverse, period. I left it there where it sat for a few weeks until my new transmission arrived, and guess what?

The damn thing is still happening in 3rd - seven times now to be exact - new tranny and all! With the exception of the reverse gear problem, which now appears to be fixed.

Thanks to everyone for their posts on this thread. I've forwarded the link to my dealership and we'll see how they proceed from there.

I've also got a call in to Acura Canada to discuss this problem and what they intend to do about it.

What a piss-off. I love this car, but lately driving it has been nothing but grief. I've got just over 4000KM on it now, and I've put over 1000KM on two of their TSX loaners already!

My dealership has been great at handling this to date in terms of support and trying their damndest to correct the situation (aside from not being able to fix the problem), but what has been troubling for me is the inkling of doubt that has been cast on this thing from the start. When the manufacturer doesn't own up to a problem, all everyone else can do in the back of their minds is assume that you're doing something wrong, and it's up to you to prove otherwise. To me, that is horribly irresponsible, and really sours my experience with an otherwise amazing automobile and brand.

Glad to know I'm not alone, and that it's not me (and that, hopefully, there is a fix).

Brettg

If I was you, I would try the GM mtf-fm stuff.
Fixed my problem.

Brett

Dave1315

I had the exact same symptoms. Three weeks ago the dealer drained the Honda gear oil and replaced it with synthetic (Redline in my case) and the problem was gone IMMEDIATELY. I have not had third gear stick at all since the change. The synthetics are designed to be a bit LESS slippery (a slightly higher coefficient of friction) which allows the syncros to work more quickly. I suspect on your car, it will shift into third - if you don't mind waiting about 2 seconds. Many posts have indicated that synthetic oils have resolved the problem. As an added benefit, the synthetics have better resistance to shearing (especially an issue for gear oils).
Good luck.

Nandito28

is there a bulletin out for this problem yet?

Brettg

I have no idea if there are different standards for gear lube and motor oil, but I use both a lot, and 90 weight gear oil is like molassis, and the honda (or GM) manual transmission fluid is like thin motor oil.
There is a huge difference between even 75w90 gear lube and the manual transmission fluid.
While I think the thicker stuff would be better for gears and so on, I would not run it in my TL trans till I knew it was safe.
To thick and it cant get into small spots to lube things.
And when its cold, gear lube tends to get like glue...

Brett

SodaLuvr

Redline MTL=10-11cst
Redline MT-90= 15-16cst
Honda MTF=10-11cst

So, technically, MT-90 is much thicker than either the Redline MTL or the Honda MTF, and may not deliver the same cold weather performance as Honda MTF would, due to its higher viscosity. However, since Redline MT-90 is a synthetic fluid, it will deliver better cold temp performance than a conventional fluid of a comparable viscosity, but as far as the extent, I don't know.

I don't recommend using Redline MT-90 in a Honda/Acura transmission, but if it works for you, go for it. But I personally wouldn't do it.

If I remember correctly, Honda did at one point allow the usage of 10W40 engine oil in the transmissions, which may be why Redline MT-90 works "okay" in this app.

SodaLuvr

Brett,
Also, if the OEM you're trying to deal with is a "jerk" when it comes to warranty issues, Kia/Hyundai/Mitsubishi comes to mind, you can pretty much predict an uphill battle if you use a different fluid that the recommended, even if it didn't cause the problem.

For example, I know that Hyundai may (probably is, given the stories I've heard) be using a chemical tracer (tagnant [?]) in their proprietary SP-III automatic transmission fluid. These can easily be detected by a low-cost analysis.

If they catch you, they can give you hell for not using their fluid. Although you may eventually "win" in a small-claims court, the out-of-service time for the vehicle may be ridiculous and not worth the hassle in the first place.

Thus, I won't use anything over than the proprietary SP-III ATF in any Hyundai/Kia/Mitsubishi that I service if its still under warranty.

But from what I've been told, Honda isn't as "tight" as Hyundai is when it comes to warranty claims. I haven't heard of anyone being challenged as to the type of fluid being used. I would still only use the GM fluid as a last resort though.

Nandito28

When you drain the trans fluid...its just like changing the engine oli right (with lil plug at the bottom of the car)

But I hear Brett saying that he's takeing the oil pan off...Is taking the oil pan off necessary when changing the trans fluid?

Oh yeah...how many quarts (bottles) of the GM stuff do I need to buy?

Thanks!

Brettg

There is a plastic shield under the trans drain plug, you can remove it, or loosen one bolt, remove the other, and swing it out of the way.

Brett

6MTrules

Lots of links for tranny fluid changes in the Garage

https://acurazine.com/forums/ramblings-12/valentines-day-haiku-93452/
https://acurazine.com/forums/car-talk-5/omg-audi-a4-1-8t-114948/
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120619

mbwmn

there is a readily availabe replacement for the Hyundai auto trans stuff; i believe Valvoline makes it (Ashland Oil?). anything else makes the sh*T rubber o-rings inside the hyundai auto trans come apart. the "swelled" o-rings stare the 2-3rd clutch packs for oil, and the friction material comes apart very quickly resulting in a contaminated trans and trans cooler...
...at least that's how i think i remember it, it was some years ago. at that time (1995?) Hyundai hadn't gone so far as to use a chemical tracer (at least @ the dealer level). it was usually enough to ask an owner if he had done the 30k service, which included a required ATF change. most hadn't, thereby voiding the auto trans part of the warranty. those that had done the 30k elsewhere provided a receipt that showed a type-II trans oil, and you know what happened to the trans warranty? most repairs at that time were covered uder a "one-time goodwill gesture" for a complete trans replacement.

sorry if i got off-thread. pls continue.
talk amongst yourselves

honda nut

iTrader: (1)

Picked up my 06 6sp last night, shifts like butter! hope it lasts. Test drove 06 on saterday , that one was a little notchy! maybe due to cold tempertures?

SodaLuvr

Lots of companies make a SP-III equivalent fluid for Hyundai apps, but none of them are OEM approved. The OEM SP-III is a proprietary fluid.

Seal compatibility is not a problem in most cases as many transmissions use the same types of materials. The main concern is always with the friction modification properties of the fluid as well as the basestocks and pour point depressants used to meet the low-temp and high-temp requirements.

mbarb17

Just got a call from my local dealer after taking my '05 TL in for the 3rd gear problem. I've had the car about 3 weeks now and it has about 1800 miles on it. I got basically the same response as everyone else, "there is no technical bulletin out there." They said they could not duplicate the problem with the exception maybe of only partially depressing the clutch. They checked (found nothing unusual) and changed the transmission fluid and claimed that although it was grey area as to whether or not that should be covered under warranty since they found nothing wrong they (the dealership) were going to no charge it since I am a new customer. I mentioned what I have read here and they gave me a response of "well there is no guarantee if you use another transmission fluid that if you have a transmission problem down the road that Acura will cover the transmission if they discover a non-recommended transmission fluid." He also said that the RSX has a similar problem in the manual transmission that has been described as a "notchy" feel and that Acura is claiming that is a design characteristic, although I haven't checked a RSX thread to see what might be discussed there. Guess I will have to see what driving it with new Acura transmission fluid brings when I pick it up.

markehmark

Twelve days now since replacement of the standard Honda fluid with the GM Synchromesh stuff, and...

Perfect!

I can't believe it - the car finally drives like it should again.

Not a single problem since the change, and as far as cold weather goes - no effect whatsoever. It's been between -20 and -10 (celsius) here over the past two weeks, and like I said, not a single problem since the MTF change.

Thanks again everyone for all the info on this thread.

Too bad the Acurians can't get their heads around this one - and I tried with Acura Canada.

No service bulletin, no acknowledgement of the types of solutions posted on this thread.

As a result, I'm guessing that Acura Canada spent in the neighbourhood of $10K (CAD) "fixing" my TL - including syncro replacement, multiple shop visits, eventual replacement of entire transmission, and a TSX loaner for 4+ weeks - all of which failed to fix the problem.

Pretty amazing that a $30 MTF change did the trick after all of that, and that Acura can't see the economics of this situation.

Not to mention all of the extraordinarily bad press they got every time my friends, family, and colleagues saw the TSX parked at the office instead of the new TL.

Sigh...

What a waste of time and money.

Thanks again.

Mark.

Brettg

Ok, so if they want to be fussy about it, what is to stop you from buying 3 quarts of honda manual trans fluid and putting that in the trans just before they tow the car in for a bad transmission?

Really, the only thing the GM stuff is doing is changing slightly the amount of friction or drag on the syncros. Its not any different in viscosity that you could tell, its the same color, it smells the same, its designed to work in manual transmissions, I have no idea why people worry about it so, its NOT like ATF which can change the way an auto trans works a LOT. Its more like using a different brand engine oil of the same viscosity and rating.

The great thing is that it WORKS!

Brett

SodaLuvr

Brett...

The GMSFM is of an entirely different viscosity than the Honda MTF...GMSFM test out at 7.5cst compared to 11cst (or so) for Honda MTF.


The GMSFM is performing better probably because it has different or additional friction modifiers and a better basestock for better low-temp performance.

Engine oil isn't a good comparison as there aren't friction modifiers that a particular engine requires.

Brettg

Well, maybe you can measure a difference, but drain it into a pan and it seems like the same as the GM stuff, that is, its not a lot thinner or thicker that
you would notice it in the pan.
At least, I didnt...

I wonder what you would get mixing half and half honda and GM stuff?

Brett

SodaLuvr

On paper, at 100C, Honda MTF is almost 50% thicker than GMSFM. But "eyeballing" it doesn't tell you much.

Check the Shell Viscosity calculator for your own custom mix.

honda nut

iTrader: (1)

I have only 230 miles on my 06 6sp and felt a problem going into 3rd a few times! went to dealer to pick up plates and was able to speak to a acura factory rep. He said all transmissions have this problem ! He also said using anything other than honda mtl could be a problem if warranty repair was needed .I did not ask him how a different mtl would effect the limited slip differential and was wondering if anyone has felt any difference in that respect?

Brettg

I was under the impression the differential was seperate.
I have not noticed any change in my car other then the trans shifts nice.

I think most differentials run gear lube, 75w90 or some such, with the limited slip ones running an additive package to allow the clutches to work correctly.

I MUST get a shop manual!

Brett

redrum4me

I put the GM stuff in last weekend and can totally notice the difference!!!!

Dave1315

The service manual indicates Honda MTF for both.

mbwmn

the differential is housed in the transmission case and shares the same lube. i have not noticed any difference in diff characteristics since my change to Redline MTL. i have noticed a marked increase in ease of shifting.

trans case diagram
differential diagram

mbwmn

just curious if any w/ 3rd gear problems are "skip shifters"?
some interesting info posted in a ServiceNews bulletin (Jan 2006) indicates this can wreak havoc with syncros.

hope this link works!

thanks again to MichaelBenz for compiling these valuable tidbits-

Nandito28

I've never skipped shift, but I still get the 3rd gear problem....just yesterday it made me do a bad shift...Damn that hurt!!!

Already bought the GM stuff...gonna put it in thi weekend.

Mark - Detroit

What a great realization regarding the limited slip diff. sharing lube with the trans.
We all know that the manual transmission brings with it a mechanical limited slip differential. It's a great addition (with real performance benefits over the standard diff. in the AT) but now I have to check that the Redline MTL, that I just bought, has the right friction modifiers to be used with our differential. I bet it does.
I also really like the parts book link!!! Thanks!


It's snowing & cold in Detroit.
Mark

SandieD

Please tell me the end of your story about the replacement of gear set, synchronizer and shift fork for 3rd gear. My 2005 TL has 7000 miles and I have the same problem everyone is talking about which I hate on a new car that has more than 2 yrs of car payments left!
Sandie, sad in NJ

Brettg

I think the people that have had the transmission 'fixed' had the same problem shortly after it was fixed.
The GM stuff seems to be a long term fix though...

Brett

stevel

the internal trans repair did nothing to help the problem at all.....
end of story is my dealer replaced my MTF with GM synchromesh fluid, under warranty at no charge to me and I have had absolutely no problems since. it was a bit of a battle to get it taken care of, but it's all good now.

SandieD

Hi, I live in NJ and the dealer and Acura customer service are saying this is normal is there is no fix. After reading these threads I contacted the dealer again and he told me to bring him copies which I will Monday 3/6. I will let you know what Montclair Acura says after.

trancemission

I must be the exception. Since they took the factory fill out its been much better.

SandieD

SteveL, Who is the dealer that took care of this for you? Are you the guy who used Chevy Chase Acura in MD? I just brought copies of these threads to DCH Montclair Acura, who coincidently sponsers the site and he will call tech line for their advice. It would help if I could refer him to other dealers that have more experience with the problem. I am in NJ. Thanks,
Sandie

Adobeman

trancemission,
Your not the only exception.
As I recall you had the the dealer drain and refill with the Honda MTF. I did the same thing myself and noticed a big improvement as well. It is not perfect but much, much better. I've put about 2kmi on since I did the change.

I'm OK with it the way it is now except for the first shift into 3rd on a very cold day but that is to be expected without synth in there.

Wid-TL

I skip shift 2nd to 4th just to avoid the notchy 3rd gear problem, especially when cold. Talked to the dealer about it, of course the road test shows 3rd gear engaging as designed.

Eventually will switch transmission fluid. As far as skip shifting - you'll hear a lot of opinions on this - but IMO if done correctly it does not cause any damage... and so easy to do with a close ratio 6 speed!

klkitts

I don't know if I'm *the* Chevy Chase guy. ;-) but yes, I posted an e-mail quite some time ago about taking my '05 Acura TL into Chevy Chase Acura - they were great about talking to me about the problem - it didn't feel like the typical dealer where they look at you like you have 3 eyes or something. The guy, I forget his name, said he'd heard of it before, Changed the trans fluid, and it has been working great ever since. I've got aout 13,000 miles on the car now.

Actually, as Adobeman noted below, I sometime feel just the tiniest notch on a really cold day the first time until the car warms up a bit. But even this worst case is 1000 times better than the average shift before. I consider nearly perfect and if it stays this good I'm fine with it. My car leads a charmed life though - it lives in my home garage which never freezes and drives 4 miles to my office garage. ;-)

Kevin

SandieD

Thanks Kevin. I have referred my NJ dealer to Chevy Chase Acura and right now he is waiting for word from his "techline" contact, who I am sure will enjoy reading all these posts. I am glad you car leads a charmed life, so does mine except on weekends at the Jersey shore when she sleeps in the street.

SandieD

My dealer in NJ cannot authorize the GM stuff but I asked him to at least try the Honda MTF and he agreed to that. We'll see if it improves my 3rd gear problem. My appt is for Wed 3/15. If it doesn't work, I'll go somewhere, anywhere for the GM Syncromesh. They still insist this is just a normal condition. Normal of course is relative!

trancemission

yeah thats exactly how it is with me, when its cold its a little notchy into 3rd but after that its good to go.

Adobeman

I think it's a good first step. I did the same and like trancemission noticed improvements.

Just give the gearbox about 100 to 150 mi with the new stuff before you judge. It took mine about that much and now it is only on very cold mornings that maybe the first engagement of 3rd is tough. Once warm all is fine.