waymay1305

My 04 TL is currently at the dealership to have the recent recall work performed. As luck would have it my check engine light came on. They determined my O2 sensor was bad and it would be almost $400 bucks to replace. Fortunately, this is covered by my extended warranty. Is it normal for an O2 sensor to go bad? If so, what can cause this? The dealership also wanted to do a top engine cleaning of some type. I immediatley declined regardless of the cost, as I recently cleaned my engine by running seafoam through the intake line just within the last 1000 miles. Was i correct in dong this? Should I do another treatment? Thanks.

Legend2TL

It's not normal for a O2 sensor to go bad that quickly these days. I replaced a few O2 sensors on Honda's and Acura's in the 80's, but since the 90's they seem to last forever as long as there is no contamination of the delicate platinum (and other alloy) plating on the ceramic thimble.

What contaminates them can be excessive amount of burning oil, too much anti-seeze put on spark plugs or the O2 sensor itself. Although most folks here have used the Seafoam, I've wondered how the chemistry of Seafoam can affect the sensor. Two local dealers in MD use a special engine cleaner (comes in a areosol can) they attach directly to the fuel rail to inject cleaner in high concentration into the injectors, supposidly it is safe for the O2 sensors and Cats.

There are four O2 sensors on the TL 3G, two upstream from the Cat converters and two downstream. Each cylinder bank get's it own pair of up/down stream O2 sensors. Which one went bad on your TL?

01tl4tl

what brand of gas do you run ?

Legend2TL

In answering your questions

1 No, not normal to go bad.

2 Caused typically by contamination fo the surface plating on the O2 sensor. Sometimes the ceramic thimble cracks but that's kinda rare these days from what I've heard. Also, the newer heated type 1 and type 2's can have the heater element go, never heard of this happening but I supose it's possible,

3 Not sure about what the top cleaning will do now. Once the sensors get fouled they are next to impossible to clean the deposits off.

4 The Seafoam I'm not sure of hurting the sensor. Alot depends on what's in Seafoam and how it combusts and gets through the exhaust system.

5 I doubt another run of Seafoam will clear the sensor, but sometimes they get small deposits they can burn off with a high speed drive for ~10 minutes. I've had that work a couple times in 20+ years but most of the time the sensor stays bad (voltage output not near 1.25V shile the fuel/air mixture is swept from lean to rich).

waymay1305

Sorry, but not sure of which sensor went bad. I typically use Shell, Exxon or Texaco gas.

01tl4tl

Gas is fine then. Parts fail- no biggie
Seafoam does not hurt anything, and you do need to do a hotfoot drive after to blow out the crud, and it heats the exhaust so nothing sticks on the O2 sensors

On the seafoam can are the directions for use in the machine that many shops use- that taps into the fuel system and has a can of gas the car runs off of for 20-30 minutes
Add 1 can seafoam to 1 gallon gas in machine
So I find it hard to believe they are using a product thats going to hurt the engine
Foam is hi detergent oils according to its maker- not solvents!
It doesnt burn/combust well- thats why the engine runs funny as you add it.
Once cleared out- the piston tops and intake valves have no carbon on them- probably what the dealer was thinking of as reason to do the induction cleaning- but $400? what was their plan?- any details? like remove intake manifold and gold plate it?

Thats when you need to tell them you did a treatment already
First timers need to repeat the faom in gas tank and vac port in 2,000 miles for max effect
Then once a year or 15k miles- whichever is first
Some in the gas every 5000 wont hurt anything and at rising prices- I want every 1/100 of a mpg increase I can get.
My overall carbon footprint looks like King Kongs foot!!!!

01tl4tl

Many car makers suggest O2 replacement after 50k miles, to keep engine running its best.
Thats why you see the Bosch display at every parts store!!

Make sure they or you reset the ECU- pull the clock fuse in passenger footwell or disconnect battery NEG cable for a few minutes
Thats forces a reboot and the computer learns again from clear signals
It will have been compensating for a failing part

Legend2TL

If it's high detergent oil that's a problem for O2 sensors since they do not like alot of unburned oil in the exhaust stream. Unburned oil accumulates on the platinum/ceramic thimble and causes the O2/battery effect of the O2 sensor to fail. These days most folks that tell me they need a O2 sensor are cars that are burning engine oil due to bad rings, valve guides/seals.

Bad gas will typically clog an fuel injector but I doubt it would harm a sensor, but even water in the gas will not harm the O2 sensors. However putting diesel in a gas engine will foul a O2 sensor.

There's some interesting debate on other internet forums as to SeaFoam and engines with O2 sensors and Cat's. I know motorcylclists who've used it with good results on carburated bikes.

Legend2TL

Many O2 sensor makers (ie Bosch) suggest replacing them but not Honda/Acura they are not part of normal tuneup or even extreme wear and tear. Unless there is a mileage problem or a check engine code do not replace.

The O2 sensors of the 70's and 80's evolved alot in the 90's with the advent of the multi-wire sensor which had heaters and other techno goodies. The Type-1 and Type-2 sensors of more recent years are like the current cat converters that last the life of the engine as long as you do not burn things other than unleaded gas that clogs them.

FWIW, if you ever think that no technology ever comes from racing to production cars. The wide-range O2 sensor that Honda developed for it's F1 V10 and V12 racing engines in the early 90's made it's way into the Honda/Acura engines to allow wide dynamic range of fuel/air mixture. The first vehicle to use this technology, the Acura NSX? No the Honda Civic FX (high mileage)!

01tl4tl

Just because its not in the maitenance schedule does not mean it wont help
There is an electric test to see if the o2 is a peak operation level
functioning and full perfect level are different things IMneverhumbleO

When you follow the diy on seafoam and preheat the engine and exhaust with a 4000 rpm 3rd gear run and then immedialty add foam- sit 15 minutes max so exhaust/cat/engine still nice and warm- then 4000 rpm drive followed by some WOT fun runs will ensure nothing got stuck on the sensors and the fuel injectors are pumping lots of dosed fuel at the injectors and valves
The only people that ever got a CEL after foam- had waited longer than supposed to, and/or did not drive as directed or not at all afterwards!

My ~theory~ the dealer thought non Tier1 gas was being used and car may not get driven in a way that promotes clean internals- short trips etc
Acura delears sell an induction cleaning service-and say every 15k miles
Its not in the book!!- oh no what shall we think of that? Just a ripoff= or something that technology has advanced or gotten accepted now.
If you dont trust seafoam- thats fine. I watched a youtube on Wynns brand, and Honda makes a 3 part kit, from what a ziner reported here. Will have to ask next time at the dealer, honda is next door

I am well aware of the technology of racing getting to street cars- thats how the manufactures can spend so many $$$$ and write it off on the research dept. budget.
Multi piston calipers and improved venting designs for rotors come to mind.

Legend2TL

That's tech so old school.

Now for a really interesting triva question.

What Ford piece of production technology made the leap into a F1 V8 racing engine that helped Michael Schmacher win the 1994 WDC?
This is tech reversal so to speak where the tech goes from production to racing. Correct answer gets two pats on the back by me!

If you get that one, another one is the same question for BMW F1 fans, what production piece helped Nelson Piquet win the 1983 WDC?

Legend2TL

Either no interest in these questions or lack of knowledge (I'm thinking the former)

1) The Ford traction control firmware source code that was developed for the Ford Zentech engines in the Europe cars was actually copied and recompiled into the Cosworth V8 engine used for the F1 cars in 1994.

2) The early 80's production BMW 316i cast iron engine block was the actual block (with ALOT of machining) used for the turbocharged M13 F1 engine. Those engines produced over 900HP in qualifiing boast.