HondaFan81

Objective: Looking for people that have experienced the problem below and what was the cause.
Background: Purchased vehicle with 66K miles, between 150-200K miles noticed issue described below and now with 240K miles the hesitation to fire seems worse.

Issue: When engine is cold, 4 quick cranks and then is hesitant to fire up strong and complete. When engine is warm, 4 quick cranks and fires up strong. Engine always fires up on first cranking attempt.

Vehicle: 2004 TL 6MT
Mileage: 240,000 miles
Check Engine Codes/DTC: None
Vehicle Condition: Well maintained (myself), excellent MPG (31 HWY), no engine oil consumption, engine performs well.

Recent Pertinent Service: Spark plugs, alternator, battery, PCV valve, intake manifold EGR port cleaning, EGR valve cleaning, valve lash adjustment, throttle body cleaning, physical timing correct/verified at 240K timing belt service.

Similar Issue Links - No causal part mentioned, not convinced this is completely ULEV2 start-up procedure related.
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-p...iately-812996/
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-p...-06-tl-586559/

Thank you.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

I didnt see that you replaced the starter in your list...
at 240k miles, it should be toast!

IIRC, mine went out somewhere in the 100k mile range at about the 7 year mark

HondaFan81

Been driving 2004 Civic since mid-April and started driving TL past 4 days after I completed recent 240K mile timing belt service to ensure all is working well and no leaks, etc.
Improperly described issue, more accurate description below, as it occurred again this morning with 53F temp (engine cold, sat overnight).

Objective: Looking for people that have experienced the problem below and what was the cause.
Background: Purchased vehicle with 66K miles, between 150-200K miles noticed issue described below and now with 240K miles it seems worse.

Issue (6/30/2016): When engine is cold, first crank strong and then cranks 2-4 are slower, but fires up strong. When engine is warm, typically 4 normal cranks and fires up strong. Engine always fires up on first cranking attempt. Temp was 53F this morning.

thoiboi

Battery or starter.

HondaFan81

My thoughts were the same, given my previous post. Thanks for your comment and experience. A friend of mine with 2007 TL-S 6MT replaced his at 135k miles, when it completely failed to crank.

I posted again above with an accurate description of what occurred this morning. I have to accustom myself again to the TL, as I've been driving another vehicle since mid-April. I have not replaced starter because it has continued to work and easier to access than alternator. It has been on my mind, given I plan to drive this vehicle to 360k miles and know it would need to be replaced eventually.

My thoughts came from past memories of TL being slow to fire up and I was thinking fuel or emissions related, based on the good condition and performance of the other variables on my TL that would cause this issue.

I will continue to drive TL for a week or so and make more detailed note on what is occurring now, to ensure the symptoms are consistent.

HondaFan81

As mentioned, thinking starter as well. Thanks for your post. Battery was recently replaced with an Interstate.

HondaFan81

Will continue to log each cold engine start for about a week. I want to know if this problem is consistent or changes symptoms.

MORNING (13-hr, cool down)
AFTER WORK (9-hr, cool down)

6/30/2016, MORNING: First crank strong, next 2-4 cranks slower, strong fire up. Temp was 53F, no rain.
6/30/2016, AFTER WORK: First crank strong, next 4 cranks slower, initial engine stumble and fire up. Temp 86F, no rain.
7/1/2016, MORNING: Three strong cranks and strong fire up. Temp was 59F, rain.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

just wondering what your occupation is? pretty damned detailed log you got going on there!

thoiboi

Injunear fa sho .. Or QA

4strokes

Just a thought .., but have you ran a fuel pressure test on it yet ?
If the starter seems to be turning the engine over at a normal rate "cranking speed" & it runs fine once cranked ... I'd be looking at fuel pump pressure & possibly dirty or weak fuel injectors which can only be diagnosed when the fuel pressure is known to be good.
Fuel pressure can change "by several psi ' from an initial cold start to warmed vehicle start if the pump is failing.
For example, if normal fuel pressure at the tap is supposed to be (52 psi) & it's only showing 42 or so, the car may crank & run alright but cause problems once the engine comes up to temp.

HondaFan81

7/1/2016, AFTER WORK: Five quick cranks and fire up. Temp was 78F, no rain.

HondaFan81

First of all, thank you for your input.

Interesting you mention this, as I was going to post that I'm not completely convinced on starter assembly failing (regardless of 240K miles), it appears to crank over fine most of time. Part of reason for my confusion in sometimes cranks seem slower and engine stumbling before complete fire, is what throws me off on not being completely starter related. The stumbling is what had me thinking fuel pressure related or ignition. I'm confident on compression, as valve lash adjustment was completely and compression test values were excellent then. Vehicle still gets new TL fuel mileage (31 HWY). If ignition, I would think some ignition coils have weaker spark (since new spark plugs and no previous ignition issues), but I noticed no concerns with any of 6 spark plug characteristics at recent 240K timing service. Some coils with weaker spark may explain intermittent stumble before complete fire up. If fuel, some partially clogged injectors could cause initial stumble as well, but I've never had Honda fuel injector issues and taken several beyond 200K miles with no replacements. I always run fuel from quality gas stations and run fuel system cleaner occasionally through fuel tank and no fuel MPG reduction. Fuel pressure is what I was thinking may be more likely as well, but not fuel pump failure. Fuel pump always primes on IGN II mode, I always listen for it, never fails. Honda tends to use Denso fuel pumps and I have not had one fail to this day and my family has taken several Hondas beyond 200K miles up to 468k miles. However, I looked into TL system and it has the return-less fuel line design common on newer Hondas and I'm thinking there needs to be some check-valve to retain pressure on supply line for next start up. This appears to be in the fuel tank area and could same as fuel pressure regulator, when I took a look quick. I'm wondering it this is bleeding down too much or has small leak that does not allow to retain full fuel pressure. This would explain the inconsistent start-up scenarios and one theory that makes sense at this time. I know stock system needs 57-64 fuel psi. I need to read service manual on how to check it.

Only other thing I had in mind was deteriorating ground straps, as I noticed fraying and some green corrosion on all 3 engine grounds when performing timing belt service. I do not have any obvious electrical issues or no light situations at this time, but I figure it is cheap and why not if I'm to see this vehicle to 360k miles. Just received new OEM ground straps today, will install this weekend and clean up contact areas. Will update if this helps or not, again battery is new.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Don't fuck around with the grounds...
if they're green or deteriorated, swap them out.
Also make sure your battery terminal posts are nice and snug and tight on both positive and negative. I've seen a HUGE improvement in cranking over strong the first time from good contacts.

Good luck.

You're a bot!

4strokes

Agree 100% on the ground straps being replaced. Battery cables & body grounds are important, batteries actually recharge from the negative side.
Remove any doubt that the battery cables aren't green inside the insulation too. I usually check suspect wires/cables with a digital OHMS meter. If if turns out that I find a wire corroded in the wiring harness I simply cut out the bad part & soldier in the replacement piece.
Over the years I've replaced plenty of battery cables that looked good on the outside but after peeling back the insulation a few inches the corrosion was obvious.
By what you posted I think you can rule out ignition problems & probably the starter too. Since you occasionally run injector cleaner it's also a good chance that they're OK, although I have replace many injector O-rings over the years on older vehicles that simply failed (causing pressure loss) because of age & that's a cheap fix.
The fuel pump or regulator would be HIGH on my check list, just hearing it come ON doesn't rule it out. Regulators rarely fail, but it's not impossible & can be bypassed to test pressure.
Every modern day electric fuel pump/line & or fuel rail assembly set-up should have a recirculation line going back to the fuel tank. The regulator does just that, if opens & closes upon demand.
When everything is operating up to specifications the pump will almost always put out more fuel/pressure than the engine needs & the rest is sent back to the tank.
Honda & Acura fuel pumps (depending on model & year) are usually accessed under the back seat carpet or inside the trunk.
Good luck

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

I would have liked that information from the beginning.....

HondaFan81

Replaced 3 main grounds in engine bay (Neg. battery, transaxle, passenger-side mount) with new OEM Honda parts. Cleaned all contact points, thread holes and replaced screws with better condition units. Will let you know how it goes this week.

HondaFan81

FYI - Ever since I completed my 240K service, replacing items below, I've seen even better fuel MPG than before. I was already getting 31 MPG HWY in warm weather at best, but now more easily obtained and potentially could get better. Wondering, if I really try to drive more conservatively, if I can do better on my work commute. Will report later on that. Been driving it a bit more aggressively, since I'm driving my TL again....but it will eventually get loaned back to my wife LOL.

240K miles, replaced:
timing belt & all related pullies/tensioners
acc belt & all related pullies/tensioners
water pump & coolant change
spark plugs (OEM NGK iridium)
PCV valve
rear inner swaybar bushings
alternator
P/S hoses (seepage) and reservoir (FYI, has screen filter in it)

Previously already restored entire coolant system (radiator, radiator hoses, heater hoses, small TB coolant hoses, thermostat, etc). EGR system cleaned (IM, water passage & EGR valve), valve lash adjusted. This TL good to go to 360K miles!! Been a great vehicle.

HondaFan81

Note: Three engine ground straps replaced over July 4th holiday weekend.

7/5/2016, MORNING: Five quick cranks and fire up. Temp was 67F, no rain.

HondaFan81

Going to monitor TL start-up rest of this week, see if it improves after replacing ground straps.

Based on the above, I'm keeping in mind fuel pressure as well. Looked into this, as I have a factory service manual and factory spec is 57-64 psi. Need an HDS or similar diagnostics/scan tool that can shut off fuel pump as part of procedure OR I just go ahead and replace the potentially intermittent components (fuel psi regulator & fuel filter), both accessible from trunk floor access panel. Looked into the EVAP system and all that pertains to fuel tank pressure emissions, no potentially failing parts that would affect engine supplied fuel pressure and therefore firing performance that I made note of.

No signs of ignition misfire, all spark plugs looked great at 120K and 240K miles. Never had previous ignition issues or codes. Compression is not an issue based on great fuel mileage, recent valve lash adjustment, engine performance and values measured at valve lash. Fuel pump primes the standard time few seconds, every time in IGN II mode, never fails. Starter appears to crank over at decent speed, nothing considerably slow and always works, never failed yet. I've had experience with failing starter, that is why I hesitate to replace it and it has never showed failing signs (typically noticeably slower to crank, then no crank and click only).

I was hesitant to say previously because I lost touch with driving this car for past couple months (as I loaned it to wifey for now), but I recalled it cranking over fine, but sometimes (typically engine cold, not ran for long period) would have initial stumble before complete fire up. Like crank, crank, crank, crank, bluh bluh bluh vroom << like that description So we'll see if it continues and was just in my head, but that's why I'm still keeping fuel pressure in mind. The long period engine cold and intermittent start-up issue, the way the engine seemed to stumble before complete fire up....seems to fit the bill and given vehicle age/mileage.

Anyways, stay tuned....

HondaFan81

This appears to be pattern described below. Engine always fires up on first start-up attempt, never had to start-up a 2nd time.

When engine is cold, I average 4-5 cranks and engine will stumble first and then fire upWhen engine warm, I average 3-4 cranks before fire up and no initial stumble.Cold Start Example: crank, crank, crank, crank, bluh vroomWarm Start Example crank, crank, crank, crank, vroom.

We'll see if this gets worse, but I'm thinking fuel pressure related, may be on slightly lower side. I have occasionally used Valvoline Complete Fuel System Cleaner, perhaps every 10-15K miles or so. Always use reputable gas stations (Sunoco, BP, Pilot, Costco). May try Lucas Fuel System Cleaner and see if that makes a difference, I believe I used that once before on this TL, not sure how long ago.

Fuel pump module/assembly, fuel injectors, fuel tank and balance of fuel system is all original (240K miles).

HondaFan81

No start-up improvement with main 3 ground straps replaced.

Ordered and received: New starter motor/positive cable, air intake sensor and engine coolant sensor. Will replace these this weekend, as cable should be replaced anyhow. Will update after install.

Apparently, you have to replace entire fuel pump module assembly and I'm not 100% confident this is the problem. I read service manual for procedure on measuring fuel pressure and you have to relieve the fuel system and spice gauge into the quick-connect within engine bay. Still have to run fuel cleaner through system, going to use the BG brand, see if there is improvement.

Nonetheless, I may delay the fuel system stuff until I notice it get worse or line up getting fuel pressure measured. I got a dealer quote, but more concerned with them tapping into the fuel quick-connect and causing potential leak and fuel pressure may still be in specification. Issue is annoying at times, but it's still reliable and always fires up. It's an intermediate problem and I don't like it when it stumbles. If it does occur, it's after car has sat overnight or after 9-hour work period.

t3hhcaptain

I have the same problem with my A/T 2009 TSX 4 cyl.

Subscribed for your learning.

HondaFan81

I apologize for not consistently updating, as my wife is primary driver of this vehicle now. Although I did get opportunity to drive it more consistently recently. After ground straps, when the engine does fire it seems to do so stronger. Absolutely no issues with starter not cranking or starter solenoid issues. Also, I did replace IAT (intake air temp) sensor with new Honda part, shortly after ground straps.

My guesses at this time are, perhaps starter motor is not cranking over fast enough after car sits for long period or a do have a fuel pressure leak-down type situation over longer period of time. This issue only occurs the first crank session after sitting for long period of time, after engine has been warmed up it cranks over fine. This is a strong, well-maintained engine, so I do not have any basic issues, but it does have 240K miles.

I have still have to install new Honda ECT (engine coolant temp) sensor and starter/positive cable assembly. I figured, why not, given the mileage of this car and cables had green corrosion, etc. The engine sensors mentioned above were replaced, again due to mileage and they are key contributors to fuel maps. Just want to make sure to rule these out as well. I'll update after this work and later do the BG fuel system clean and see if that improves anything beyond this as well.

Keep you all updated, hope to get to this work this week.

t3hhcaptain

I have about 107xxx miles and have this problem. Sometimes after a short drive it will not start without cranking it more than 10 times and then will kind of stumble. Replaced the fuel relay and it seemed to be better but sometimes still have the issue as described, but only when engine isn't completely warmed up. Not sure if related.

Still have similar first start issues though, wondering if all the parts you've replaced haven't helped if (on a limb) the fuel map for startup is the culprit or maybe not enough CCA?

samplemonster

Aw man? Was that the end? I'm getting this at 240k miles on my TL as well.
Always starts very well in the morning (even when cold).
But it's always in the afternoon or evenings that it struggles to crank over with some definite struggle. Gives me reason to prefer using my wife's car when we got out in the evenings.

HondaFan81

I am worry for not following up on this thread, life hit me.

In order of replacement and parts that made difference to stronger start-up with no stumble. All my negative and positive battery terminal wiring harnesses had green corrosion and/or were frayed by 240k miles and car lived in MN/MI all its life.
I believe items # 1 and 3 made the biggest difference and item #2 was cheap and done for reassurance of no future issues given vehicle age/mileage.

1) Three negative ground straps replaced with Genuine Honda product (negative battery terminal harness, trans & passenger mount).4
2) Replaced IAT (intake air temp.) and ECT (engine coolant temp.) sensors with Genuine Honda product.
3) Replaced positive battery terminal wiring harness replaced with Genuine Honda product and starter assembly with remanufactured product.

Note: I have not had any issues starting up TL in warm or very cold temperatures since this vehicle sits during winters because I drive my 2004 Civic Hybrid as a winter beater. I start up TL once every 2 weeks during winter and occasionally drive it around to keep it running well for when the warmer weather arrives.