Alright, we're on the same page then. Obviously OEM cats are produced by thousands and thousands and engineered for longevity, there's compromises to be done if you want HFPC that are priced competitively while retaining their high flow property.

Are you serious? That's not the burned down TL-S???

 

its my egr valve i just took off to inspect

i have no idea what im inspecting and i have no engine codes
knowing my luck once i put it back on something bad happens

 

Alright, then that's one dirty valve haha. It doesn't push in, it pushes out. Do you have uneven idle?

 

figured it out, the vent doesnt push in, it pushes out.
doesnt appear to be anything thats blocking the vent, so i just put the egr back

edit: just read your post, my idle is good
it just feels like it doesnt start up like other cars
rpm would jump up to like 1500 rpm, then down to 1000, and then back up a little higher like 1150

 

Cleaning it doesn't hurt, it's pretty dirty. A lot of times it won't throw a code until it's ridiculously dirty/plugged/stuck open though. Rough idle is the usual sign, what you're describing could well be something else though.

 

Put your fingernails around the "lip" of that spring and pull it out, or insert an allen wrench and pull it out. Your EGR looks fine as well as the gasket.

If you had an issue, you'd have blockage and the valve wouldn't be able to close, in your image, it appears fine.

The spring extends into the exhaust gas, it's the inlet of the EGR.

 

I did, that's why I opted to de-core the front and will do the other soon. The website states that the welds and flanges are warranties by RV6 for 24 months. The reply when I asked what I need to do to re-core these is below:

"We do not warranty the cores. The warranty is through magnaflow. We can cut the cores off and submit them for analysis. This usually takes 6+ months. We charge $150 to recat a HFPC which includes the core. Depending on magnaflows decision we would refund a credit."

I did not feel like tying up $300 for a 6+ month decision, or reinstalling the stock fat cats for a turnaround. I assume Rich would recore them, charging you $300 and reimburse you later if magnaflow did the same for him. Hence the two week turnaround mentioned earlier.

 

If the mileage was correct form the seller (400 miles) there's no excuse for these failing, again, you guys can see how clean the stock cats were. RonA should require anyone selling used HFPCs to provide a date stamped photo of the cores of the HFPCs in the Black Market. I just can't imagine anyone would purposefully risk $500 or so on another member having to deal with this issue.

The only engine related mods is a K&N CCI installed several months prior to installing these, and a j-pipe installed along with these. Did not do anything to the ECU.

"Trusting" the quoted mileage of the seller, there's no way I'd run HFPCs again and I can't wait to remove the core of the rear. Sure this may be a fluke, but when I upload photos in a minute, there's no way I'd be comfortable with the amount of substrate free flowing in exhaust gases ever again.

Imaging not having a third cat delete behind the j-pipe and this stuff clogging that, no electronics there to throw a CEL, you'd get pressure and likely bust some engine oil seals internally and have a major oil consumption issue if only that.

 

OK, picture update, keep in mind the first image consisted of pieces in which was the ONLY instance of a CEL occurring over the course of two days.










The following was removed over the course of the following three days, after checking the EGR daily. Most came out the final day, yesterday. Remember ZERO codes were given, I just knew they were there (driver instinct / car bonding) because of a slight RPM surge...very slight. The EGR inlet valve was clogged full and the remainder was retrieved with a magnetic tool from the front bank exhaust "manifold," (yes I know they're not really manifolds). If this doesn't cause concern for #1 no CEL, and #2 minimal RPM surging...I don't know what will. I'm sure some folks have a ton of this shit bouncing around and have no idea.






The following was the end result of removing the substrate, the larger pieces are first. The next picture with the singular piece was the only piece that looked like it maybe melted. Notice the sandy particles among the smaller pieces of the substrate in the last few pictures which began to accumulate (the sand) after I began to really break down the substrate. The smaller pieces were in similar shape sizes of the ones clogging the EGR Valve. That sandy substance WILL bypass the EGR valve, good luck with that if your HFPC has broken down to that level while installed.

 

I may be unsure what helpful posts are, I mean I didn't have to share any of this with the "community."

 

that's pretty crazy. how did you pull all this out? did you remove the hfpc and all this dumped out? or did you reach into the outlet (that goes into the inlet of the hfpc) and fish it out?

 

The following pics are what made me pull the front HFPC. I don't have a fancy snake/scope cam, so I taped a pen light to remain turned on, then tied string to it and dropped it down into the top oxygen sensor hole; yes the HFPC had cooled down and do the same if you do this. The pics are what I could see with my eyes, just wasn't comfortable driving it any longer until it I de-cored the HFPC.

All I can assume is that these were damaged previously, I had no knowledge in how to check the condition adequately. Or these are just a fluke. No idea, all I know is that I had them on a VERY short time with what was stated as only 400 miles previously.

While researching further yesterday, and after discovering the substrate is "spun" in these magnaflows, I pretty much knew definitively I'd find the evidence below.

Again, no evidence of oil, nothing mechanical did this. My advice AVOID used HFPCs period. This issue and the time involved in correcting it is NOT worth a $150-200 savings, my time certainly isn't worth that.

 

Also, when researching cats, I came across a service for $200 to remove the substrate from the stock cats, it's a bit of a pain to get the substrate started in removal, but it speeds up as you go. Save yourself $200 if anyone else also has come upon that "service."

There was also argument that with substrate removal, cats still wouldn't see gains like a racing pipe. That's ridiculous, the air is restricted the same as soon as it hits that first 90 degree bend into the cat/HFPC/racing pipe.

After driving a total of about 100 miles yesterday and today no CEL related to oxygen sensors have appeared. So again, I look forward to removing the rear and doing the same.


Come on guys, I feel like I shouldn't have to beg for some thanks in this thread. How many of you guys would willingly share metal shavings coming out of their engine???

 

Rubber mallet, cat's paw, philips and flat screwdrivers, long ones.

Use the screwdrivers to tear up the inside of the core, straddle the substrate with the cat's paw, use the rubber mallet to knock dust/sand particles out as you go. I used pliers once most of the longer pieces were removed.

Seems like all I do after work is work lately, had to re-solder some new capacitors on the HDMI board of my 7.1 receiver the day before doing this.

After removing the rear and the substrate, I'll post a new video in the other thread I posted to show no rasp and the new sound doing this creates. But only if you guys start giving some damn thanks, lol.

EDIT for you sockr1 - The pieces on the paper towel were stuck in the EGR inlet and removed from the outlet of the engine exhaust "port." The remaining pieces on the cardboard were removed with the HFPC removed. The front is ridiculously easy to remove (radiator reservoir, passenger side fan shroud, top oxygen sensor; you can leave bottom oxygen sensor on until it's out and on ground; remove top bolts and under bolts at j-pipe (no need to remove any under-body shields to remove front cat).

 

the metals in cat's consist of platnium and other metals. They are worth money! Don't throw out the innards

 

To my knowledge these magnaflow cores are worthless in reclamation.

Also: https://www.google.com/search?q=plat...utf-8&oe=utf-8

Unless an electric field magnetizes the platinum substrate, exactly what part is platinum? The dust?

 

Ahhh sounds like you had an Onkyo receiver with the dreaded bad HDMI board too eh..?

 

Yup, R980, only had three 100uf to replace and did the 4.7uf on backside for good measure. Was going around the house like mad looking for my bag of 1,000 caps. Was worried I'd have to buy a receiver just to adequately experience Fallout 4 in a few days. No way I was going to listen through TV speakers, lol.

Wife was like "No, I don't know where your capacitors are."

Was upset I reset the receiver to default per "troubleshooting" for nothing...bastards.

I'm now on the lookout for receivers listed as "for parts" to "upgrade" my outdoor 5.1 system my neighbors enjoy

 

thanks for all the pics and the info, i'll be checking my hfpcs the next time i have a chance but hopefully it hasn't gotten worse

this is good info but the benefit comes forth when others find the same issues and it's a trend. you have a very bad case of something most of us have seen before, the real light bulb will be when we figure out what caused it. i don't think it was structurally weak to begin with, i think there's some initiating event that started it and then it snowballed.

people will have to look at the risk vs benefit that comes with this specific part, just like all aftermarket parts. i will continue to run hfpcs

on another related note, if someone has ceramic coated hfpcs, when they get them re-catted, there's a $40 fee to put the coating back on (it comes off to get down to the weld and cut out the core)

 

I'll hesitantly remove my front plugs to add weight to the fact I didn't encourage this issue. I'm sure some folks need that proof. With wife, kids, and a life I'd like after work, that update will come at my leisure.

Not knocking HFPCs, I just don't see the benefit outweighing the risk when you can remove substrate from the stock cats or the HFPCs and remain CEL free and pass a visible inspection with stock cats. You'd have better gains too, but I understand those in restricted states, HFPCs are the only solution to pass pollution.

My state has no inspections.

 

You can have all the metal shavings that come out of my car actually!

Not raining on your parade, but aside from inspection, cats actually do a very important job at cleaning the air we all breathe (removing NOx for instance). It is illegal in many countries/states to run a car without a cat for this exact reason.
The air we breath is even more important than $200 of saving or whatever HP you'll get out of removing your cats...

 

I would think any gear head would know what a catalytic converter does.

I do more for the environment that I care to share.

 

Not looking to spark a debate, simply felt like maybe recommending people to remove their cats entirely or remove the substrate to fool visual inspection might not be the best thing to do in the long run.

 

Sometimes it's best to leave that two cents in your pocket. What's been stated in this thread is nothing that hasn't been stated already. Perhaps you'd like to spend the day searching for these threads and scolding within them too.

The recommendation to remove substrate is based upon not seeing the shit I pulled out of my engine.

Your post added nothing to the issue of this thread.

 

Gj at finding the source of the metal particles!!

 

This.. buttt.... those gains are up top and a little lost down bottom.

It just smells and sounds of excellence tho.. Plus it's free so $/hp ratio is pissahhh..

 

Had a pretty length follow-up written, browser crashed, not retyping all of it.

Removed substrate in rear, reinstalled no CEL codes after about 15 minutes of test driving, will update if any are encountered. No defouler yet, and hope I won't need to, I'll update either way as I put more miles on the TL.

It was apparent the rear needed the substrate removed as well, could tell evidence as soon as it was removed. In both front/rear HFPCs, the core could shift inside. First thing I did after removal was turn the engine over to blow out any remaining pieces recirculated with the EGR valve. Don't forget this step if you do this to clean any particles that may be drawn in from re-circulation back into the exhaust ports of the engine.

Important - Even with quit a bit loose in the rear, there was no CEL code from the rear relating to the shards. Checking the EGR Valve since resolving the front has shown nothing making it's way to it, I'm going to continue to monitor it for another week to ensure leftovers don't create an issue.

I believe the failure occurs in the outermost rings, the inside diameter, here the substrate was most friable and a brick read in color. This again echoes my sentiment about NOT purchasing any used, because you can't see the outermost spun material, maybe with a small mirror, but not the length of it. This outermost area of the substrate failing results in movement, then breaks apart, creating more room for movement, and more breaking apart. The front was much more broken up than the rear. I just don't see how both of these "failed" in such a short amount of confirmed use on my end, plus a supposed 400.

I didn't bother checking the spark plugs, not necessary in my opinion with both failing, no evidence of oil in substrate, and no other oil issues. I trust my judgement and that's all that matters.

If the "difficulty" of removing the rear cat is preventing anyone to do this, I found it's actually easier to remove than the front; pretty much the strut brace and raising the engine slightly to allow room for removal at engine mounting point. I didn't have to climb up on the plenum cover this time. If your fat cats are replaced already, swapping them again literally could be done in well under an hour.

The actual process of removing the substrate was an absolute pain; still wouldn't have paid anyone $200 for this. Took almost 4 hours last night, the picture with the twisted large piece coming out is after dicking around with that portion for probably a solid 3 hours. I really have no advice for removal, but you can see a range of tools I utilized in one of the pics below.

As for the poster above saying this "mod" results in lost gains at the low end, I've gained them, period. The accelerator is responsive, more so than I'd have imagined, I spun my tires in my driveway not expecting that response, and I never do that.

I'll have a follow-up post with video for sound later after uploading.

 

See the danger of this issue is, you have to realize that the areas of failure create a gap, then remaining substrate settles when at WOT and pushes/bends a more outer area inwards on top of that and will begin to restrict exhaust gases from leaving (imagine covering an air vent), I think that is what actually caused the metal to create “shards.” When at operating temp, the metal (HFPC substrate) becomes very friable; imagine hornet nest as the substrate and is susceptible to deterioration from extreme heat of the exhaust. The core substrate is also already slightly conical on both ends, from the design of the Magnaflow cores (substrate); it seems only natural that it would begin to collapse upon itself. My assessment anyway from what I encountered and looked at; see weld (Not Richie’s welds) of the Magnaflow piece in the application.

Anyway, here are the videos; it was wet both times so, extreme ape nut speed wasn’t achieved. The other underhood mods are K&N Typhoon CCI and ATLP V2-R J-Pipe.

First here is the "takeoff and drive-by" with RV6 HFPCs on, but keep in mind “damaged,” and before I removed them, removed substrate, and reinstalled:


<embed width="440" height="420" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://v9.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=14m47k2&s=9"><br><font size="1"><a href="http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=14m47k2&s=9">Original Video</a> - More videos at <a href="http://tinypic.com">TinyPic</a></font>


Here a few videos after removing substrate in both RV6 HFPCs. In neither of the videos is the foot on the gas when passing the camera, coasting due to stop point is about 200 feet behind the camera. Target seemed to be reached sooner, coasting as a result of arriving faster, maybe monkey nut speed achieved on return drive-by, the rubber was screaming a little in the curve J:


<embed width="440" height="420" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://v9.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=14m47k2&s=9"><br><font size="1"><a href="http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=14m47k2&s=9">Original Video</a> - More videos at <a href="http://tinypic.com">TinyPic</a></font>


Here is a bonus video of the TL on the tarmac approaching take off speeds:


<embed width="440" height="420" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://v9.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=35ddms6&s=9"><br><font size="1"><a href="http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=35ddms6&s=9">Original Video</a> - More videos at <a href="http://tinypic.com">TinyPic</a></font>


I think it sounds awesome for not having any exhaust work done behind the third cat, and just focusing on performance in the throat per se compared to noise in the ass. It sounds great in tunnels (especially one-way), underpasses, when at WOT, or just cruising around in general. Maybe it’s having driven rotary cars, those engines sound great imo.

I guess I’ll start tailoring “the ass” of my exhaust; 3" all the way to the "Y" and a very long resonator, Not concerned with tips for “looks,” and get “throaty” mufflers. Might even put stock tips back on. Maybe I'll go nonresonated at first for a comparison before/after resonation for giggles. I’ll probably wind up with a more unique tone due to not many would order RV6 HFPCs and gut them for that note, it just worked out like that for me.

Sorry for late video reply, child needed daddy time and watched team close for a win in overtime, great game.

Not trying to “state” an issue, rather my experience; others had it, others will have it. I just find it hard to believe these would fail with less than 2,000 miles with normal driving conditions; heck, any driving condition for that amount of mileage, if mileage is true, I can only account for my personal ~1,500 miles. Heavily weigh a used purchase on these. The craftsmanship is great on Richie’s end, OEM quality with fit and look of welds. Magnaflow makes the bulbous portion of the HFPC, not worth the effort to take someone up on the warranty for that failure point.

In your experience, you may never realize your HFPC is causing issues, as a CEL may not trigger; I’m not OK with the amount of “shards” on the napkin above not triggering a CEL. Lesson learned.


Enjoy

EDIT - These videos sound nice in 7.1 on your couch.

 

Can't seem to Internet today, sorry.

The after video is below:


<embed width="440" height="420" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://v9.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=2z4zbz9&s=9"><br><font size="1"><a href="http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2z4zbz9&s=9">Original Video</a> - More videos at <a href="http://tinypic.com">TinyPic</a></font>


Which I'm now enjoying on TV. Gonna go drive for a bit before nature turns the light out on us.





Maybe a MOD can edit this video in the post above to minimize confusion or watching the same video twice.

 

Huh, just realized my TV has PIP while browsing the Internet.

 

now I really want to check mine...

 

Wanted to follow-up after having driven the car for about a week with the substrate removed from both HFPCs.

I'll be honest and say I expected a CEL related to the oxygen sensors, but so far ZERO issues, no CEL codes, and most importantly no more shards.

Car sounds great for having no muffler work and I don't notice any rasp.

Really enjoying this happenstance mod.

 

that is really good to know. thanks for reporting back

 

I've been researching back-pressure and velocity of exhaust systems and would argue that these HFPCs with the substrate removed allow a greater velocity of exiting gases due to less friction, even though there is more surface area per se, an air buffer in the bulbous portion of the HFPC creates an area of less friction, almost as if that entire portion of surface area is removed:


You can skip to 20:40, but the whole video is worth watching. It's given me a lot to consider in my future cat-back exhaust.

Researching cats in general, anyone should expect ANY aftermarket HFPC to fail and break apart eventually, you can tell if one has been "burned" by the exterior color more so than the inside substrate. Also aftermarket HFPCs aren't subsidized by the total price of a new car so the OE ceramics and plated PGMs aren't present in aftermarket cat-cons at least not anywhere near the extent of an OE, and I don't know of any aftermarket cat-cons that have ceramic mesh/substrate. The ceramic won't burn up as easily, usually OE fails due to exterior damage or a separate leading issue (blow-by). The ceramics of OE are coated in a slurry of PGMs which also resist corrosion and extreme heat.

Anyone who isn't hanging onto their OE cats, should seriously reconsider this, instead of trying to recoup the cost of an "upgrade." I had no intention of parting with my OEs and after learning more about the "return to stock" everyone else should do the same, for legality reasons when/if you sell your car.

 

It reminds me of impluse headers. Megaphone exhaust

Impulse Engines : How It Works : Exhaust Headers

 

Exactly, that megaphone effect, but boom right out the gate .

Although, I have a 3" collector ready for a 3" long tube in the cat-back, I'm not sure doing so would benefit the removal of more back-pressure in my stockish setup.

I'd be resonated if I do go 3" piping in the cat-back with a 3" resonator, a long one, eliminate the mid-muffler, likely keep 2.5" after the "Y" and have some nice growl in tone in muffler selection; deeper rather than higher tone.

Probably be a complete custom setup rather than a direct aftermarket cat-back. But I'm looking at a few that offer an optional 3" at various points of the cat-back including muffler inlets.

Thoughts?

 

I have no idea. Do a 3in exhaust and do a megaphone to dual 2.5in with a resonator inbetween?

still no CEL right? I might do this instead of PCD

 

Very interesting/insightful information. This is the kind of detail that makes acurazine great. Thanks Monkey for your work and sharing.

I was debating whether to get an exhaust and whether to do a PCD vs HFPC and I was leaning towards HFPC to keep my car emissions legal (KCMO does not do emissions but I will move to Denver in 2 years and they do emissions so...)
but this defnitely will keep me at my OEM, which I was going to do anyway.

Good information definitely for those who already have HFPC or are considering getting one.

I think this may even need to be put into the 3G Garage compendium.

 

Dropping in to this thread to say that I had the exact same problem this week on my 2012 Accord V6 w/ RV6 HFPC (ceramic coated locally). Cat fell apart, clogged the EGR valve, triggered P0404. Every picture in this thread is exactly how my cat looks and the pieces that were in the EGR.

 

Every one of us with hfpcs is sleeping a little less soundly after seeing this thread.