blokhead

The wife and I where driving back from a weekend trip to Memphis and we had put 650 miles on the car on Monday when it started to chug and missfire, it didn't throw any codes or anything. We pulled over and I checked the car, nothing was blatently obvious. I had the wife rev it a few times and seemed to rev fine. We were about 1/2 mile from an exit and I started driving it drove fine until I got in 5th gear and it started sputtering again.

We pulled into the gas station and cut the car off. I checked everything that I could and didn't see anything at all, except some frost and a little ice on the AC lines going to the condenser. When I went to start the car, I got the check engine light, VSA and everything else bad lit up on the dash and it was idling at 1500 rpm. I cut it off and on a few times, the same result.

I then went to move it away from the gas pump, and it didn't want to run, it wouldn't rev and had no power. When I pulled it out it cut off about 20 feet away and wouldn't start after that.

Got it towed to the local acura dealer and they spent all day yesterday diagnosing it and couldn't find anything. This morning they called me and said it was the pcm and it was covered under warranty. Great.

Well 20 minutes later they called back and guess what... Not covered under warranty because when they pulled out the pcm it was full of water. They tested the water and it salt water (yeah right). My car hasn't been near the ocean for one, the closest it gets is the acura dealer. And on top of that we had driven 650 miles from the middle of the damn country. How the hell would salt water get in the pcm and not fry it immediatly, let alone 1400 miles later??????

I will say that when we got out of the mountains the AC wasn't blowing as cold as it should have been, and I told them that if any water got in the PCM it came from the car itself. Nothing else was "wet" inside the car.

So I guess my question is, can the AC condenser freeze up and cause water to to drip onto the PCM when it starts melting???

Thanks in advance....

Will Y.

Sorry to hear about the problem.

Unfortunately, a search will show at least a couple of other threads regarding incidents of water frying the PCM-- most were from a plugged-up A/C drain line (not salt water, though).
FWIW, most of the A/C drain lines were plugged intentionally, due to a service tech putting a plug or bolt in the drain line to keep condensation from dripping onto the tech and garage floor during oil changes, etc.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Just some info, no first hand experience:
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/water-leaks-into-control-box-609023/

blokhead

Well the dealer called back, still not covered. But they can't explain where the water came from. The carpet and everything else is dry. I asked them to check the AC, but they can't do that until after they replace the PCM. I asked them if the water came from the car then wouldn't that be covered?? They at least acknowledged that.

Also the drain lines weren't clogged. So I asked them what is going to stop the problem from happening again, they had no answer.

Anyone got any ideas on what else I should ask them???

csmeance

have you ever gotten the windshield replaced? Call up acura client care, there's no way any water could have gotten to the PCM unless it was the A/C drain or a bad windshield installation job.

LoveMyTL-S

Where exactly is the PCM located? Could the moon roof drains affect it?

blokhead

It's the original windshield and we didn't drive through any rain. I'm going to call Acura client care in a little bit. Thanks for the response.

edit: My ac was definitely frozen up, I'm almost positive that is where came from, but they stated the drains weren't plugged...

acuratech239

iTrader: (2)

As I've responded to this on some other threads with similar problems, I'll just say the following. It is normal, when the A/C is running, for the line(s) under the hood to have moisture, etc on them.

Aside from that, I've personally replaced a few PCMs that had water inside, in varying amounts. Twice it was caused by a bolt stuck up the evaporator drain tube, and once it was just plain clogged (debris, not sure what it was). Additionally, we've replaced a few because somehow water got in there, but it was never determined (these repairs were done by other techs I work with).

Regardless, as long as it wasn't the bolt up the drain tube, Acura has been covering these under the 8 year/80,000 mile warranty. They don't even call it goodwill, they are actually calling it 8/80. This is direct from my District Rep when I questioned him about the PCMs and water damage.

I would keep pushing for a warranty repair for the entire incident.

blokhead

Everyone thanks for the responses. I asked Ron A to change the title of the thread since I went to the dealer today and actually talked to them, here's what I wrote:

I spoke with the service manager and they are trying to find out where the water came from. When I went in they actually where googling the problem to see if they could find anything and the Master Tech who is working on the car also had a call into the Tech line. They just had never seen anything like this before except when cars got flooded out in Downtown Charleston (which happens often) I get the sincere feeling they are trying to do what's right, but they are also trying to cover their own buts.

Just after I sent the message to Ron, I called the dealer and they stated that they talked to Acura and that Acura was covering the cost under warranty.

Now I just have to wait a day to get the thing back...

Also a word of warning: Don't drive your car for long periods of time if the AC is working sub-par, it can freeze and fill up you AC evaperater and then leak and fill up you PCM.

Hopefully it'll run right when I get it back.

Mattgtp

I had this happen to my last car twice but thankfully the pcm was under the battery in the GTP. The first time the fan seized up and I had no heat or a/c. The second time was 3 weeks later on a trip to North Carolina and my passenger side floor was filled with water. The problem was a blocked drain tube but the dumb GM tech never thought of checking that when he replaced the blower motor and found water inside.

240sx acura tech

have you had any ac work done.

blokhead

No, never. The car is an 06 with 36000 miles.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

That is unreal. Who works on cars and is worried about having a/c water dripping on them? I can only hope half the crap that drips on me is a/c water....

Will Y.

I thought it was Acuratech that ran across this several times-- IIRC, bolts were inserted into the end of A/C condensation drain tubes by workers at "Jiffy Lube"-type oil change outfits, probably since they are standing right under the drain tubes while changing the oil of cars that have just been shut off.
Yeah, that's pretty silly, and then forgetting to remove the bolt after??

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

^ Maybe those techs need to change professions. Perhaps take up needlework or quilting... WOW!

acuratech239

iTrader: (2)

Will Y -

It is me who mentioned about finding bolts up the drain plugs on multiple occasions. I still have the pics on my phone, maybe I'll finally have to upload them on here so people can see exactly what I'm talking about. And I'll go ahead and name drop: both times I've seen it happen in the past few months, the cars came from Cloister (Car Wash/Service). Cloister denied the first incident, but the second time, I took about 15 pictures and made a detailed write up of what I found. Needless to say, that customer had a check for $1,800 the next day. (He had a melted coil pack that took over four hours to get all of it out, plus the PCM, and I forget what else. Hence $1,800).

And yes Racinghart, I'de love to know if these idiots get fired. I agree with you, I'de be happy if it were only water that gets dripped on me. Heck, in the summer like this, A/C drain tube water is a good thing!

blokhead - I'm glad everything worked out for you!

blokhead

Well it's kinda worked out. Today they got the new PCM and put it in and it fired right up. The tech took it on a test drive and it stalled and wouldn't start back up, so they had to get it towed back to the dealer. That was at about noon today. I called back at 330 and they didn't have anymore news and then at 530 and they still had no updates, except that the master tech who is working on the car is coming in tomorrow to work on it. Hopefully I'll here some good news tomorrow.

Oh yeah, I still don't have a loner car (in all honesty we really don't need it, yet) but if they need to keep it longer next week, hopefully they can get me one. But tomorrow the Service Manager is working the service desk and I'll talk to him directly about that. The Service manager appears to be a pretty nice guy and is doing what he can. Like I said earlier, they had never ran across this issue before...

I hope they haven't destroyed my front end/rear end with all the towing they have had to do (the original tow truck that brought it to the dealer dropped the car in front of their gate and they had call in a tow truck to move it) hasn't destroyed my front end... my car sits pretty low. The guy who originally towed it took great car about getting it on the truck without scrapping or rubbing anything.

Thanks again guys for the information and suggestions.

1fsthatch

wow you have a lot of patience i wonder why the car stalled again after the PCM was replaced

blokhead

Don't know, and they don't know. It may be a DOA pcm, wouldn't be the first time for a DOA part. I do field service for a major manufacturer and it happens. Only good thing is that my wife drives the car mostly and she doesn't work, so she stays home with the kids.

240sx acura tech

ive had a couple bolts in the drian as well. if there was no bolt in the drain when it came in there your covered under warranty.

blokhead

I'm really starting to not like the dealer where my car is at... They just called me and stated that they think that the timing is off, they think that either the crank sensor is bad or broke, also compression in one of the cylinders is low as well as one of the coil packs is melted. They also told me it will be about $900 to tear it down and check it out. They insuated that it might have been over revved, which is funny, since it was in 6th gear on the highway when it crapped out, and then wouldn't rev above 3000 rpm. Also they don't think it is related to the PCM being full of water. I'm really starting to get pissed off now.

blokhead

Oh yeah, on Friday they told me they took it for a test drive and it died and they had to get it towed back to the dealership. Today they are telling me when they fired it up it was running rough and had thrown a crack sensor code. Why the hell would you test drive a car if it was running rough and had thrown codes???????????????????????

Also if it had over revved, I would have bent valves right? My guess is the pcm caused a lean condition in one or more cylinders when it fried, so I'm sure I don't have any bent valves. Also it has never been over revved, unless the dealer did when they took it for "a test drive" on Friday.

Any help would be appreciated.

Will Y.

See post 16, first paragraph- acuratech ran across the melted coil pack following flooded PCM on one of his cases; there is a thread where he described it as well. You may want to PM him for more info.

BTW, your dealership contact person sounds clueless-- you may want to ask to talk directly to the tech yourself.

G/L.

Majofo

damn.. I'm going to check my drain tubes.. that's unreal.. OP.. I hope things work out without them trying to stiff you.. talk to the Master Tech working on your TL..

blokhead

Thanks for the support guys. I got the distinct impression they are trying to say that I hydrolocked my TL since I have a AEM CAI. That's funny since we were driving on the Interstate and wasn't raining... They are tearing the motor down today and taking pictures for Acura Client Care to send to the Honda Tech Line. Hopefully they see where the cylinder destroyed itself due to Detenation and not hydrolocking. I don't know what I can do if they state the one cylinder that is low on compression was due to water. I know some nay sayers will say "oh you hydrolocked it and are trying to get out of paying for it" But it is interesting that it died on the interstate 40 miles from nowhere and me and the wife where stranded with all our luggage from our trip to Memphis.

Oh yeah, they also stated that it looks like the timing belt has jumped 6 teeth???? How the hell can that happen??? They didn't state where it had jumped (if it was one the banks of cylinders or the Crank) but how the heck can that even happen? Also I guess there is a bad crank sensor (or broken crank as they stated), I don't know if I mentioned that.

Man this really sucks ass, I'm at their mercy. I understand they are trying to cover their asses due to the posibility of hydrolocking or overrevving. But I know without a doubt on my mothers grave that neither one occured. But how do I prove it?

Majofo

Sounds like to me... tell them you want to see the scope on the cylinder.. if it was hydrolocking I'm sure more than one cylinder would be involved.

nfnsquared

Very good point that you should bring up with the Tech. I'd certainly expect more than one cylinder to be affected by hydrolocking.

Also, doesn't hydrolocking usually bend stuff as well?

And yes, you would expect an overrev to also bend some valves as well.

The coil pack was melted due to the PCM being fried. I'll find the other post.

blokhead

I agree, that if it hydrolocked more than 1 cylinder would be affected. Also I don't think they have a scope, they are tearing down the engine to see what the problem is...


Acura client care stated they believe the coil pack was due to the PCM. I also talked at length with the guy (who is pretty knowledgeable by the way) about possible causes of the issues that I have. I'm pretty sure that he's aware that I know what I'm talking about and not talking thru my ass. We talked about timing and how it is electronically retarded by the pcm and also injector pulse width and timing is also controlled by the pcm as well as spark. Also he validated that the only way to over rev the motor is through a missed shift, which is pretty hard to do when you are using cruise control in 6th on the interstate.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

While hydrolocking usually involves the entire engine one cylinder will usually bear the grunt of the actual lock up. Usually bending one rod. Over rev will usually involve valves. The correct steps in this diagnosis are as follows..
Step 1. Compression test (identify if there is a compression issue that would point to mechanical failure.)
Step 2 (if step one shows low compression anywhere) cylinder leak down test. This will show you if you have a valve, or burned piston issue. Usually bent valves on our cars.
If leakdown is good, compression is down...
Step 3. I use a TDC tool and take a reading from the piston to the top of the spark plug hole on a KNOWN GOOD cyl. Then the cylinder that is down on compression. If the piston is low due to a bent rod this will show in the measurement comparison.
I would have done this first thing after I determined that your misfires were not caused by an electrical cause IE PCM, bad coil, etc. As much as I hate to say it now that your car is in a million pieces its gonna be a tough battle. If you do have a short rod once the head is off it will be evident. I however prefer my methods to pulling heads off to "check" things..... Unfortunately bent valves, or short rods are NOT warranty concerns. Secondly I have NOOO idea how your car came to be FIVE teeth off on the cam timing..... This whole thing is off to me.. But thats just me...

nfnsquared

Here's 2 other threads where a fried PCM (fried by water leaking into the PCM) resulted in melted coil packs:

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/ignition-coil-melted-731045/
(for whoever asked where the PCM is, see post #7. Great picture!)

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/help-plugged-c-drain-ruined-ecu-720388/

blokhead

I agree as to the whole thing being off, I'm as baffled as anyone, and I was sitting in that damn car for 15 hours that day...

They stated that the compression in all cylinders was 200 lbs? and that cylinder 6 was at 120 (cylinder 4 was the one that had the melted coil pack) I don't think they did a leak down test, but I will inquire tomorrow. I'm really at a loss.

On a side note, I do have some nice pictures of the car on the Blue Ridge Parkway and also on the US129 "The Tail of the Dragon" from that day...

Is it possible to determine from looking at the block if the car had "water damage" ie would the cylinder be rusted???? I just want to cover my bases if they say it was water damage (which I know it's not) that I know what to ask them. I'm gong to try to get the pictures that they took, and I'll post em up if they'll give them to me.

Thanks again everyone...

Mattgtp

I just talked to my friend who is a acura tech up here and he just replaced the engine in a 2G that had sucked up some water and showed me the block. Every cylinder had rust in it and the rod was bent on a 45.

blokhead

OK, I talked to the Tech that is working on the car. They haven't torn the car down yet, and he is working with the Tech Line taking pictures and doing the steps that they are recommending. He is going to do a leak down test today and figure out where the low compression in cylinder 6 is coming from. Also he didn't take the covers off of the timing belt, he just looked at through the inspection holes??? so I don't know what that means right now. Also it is throwing a code for the crank position sensor. Also he hasn't scoped the cylinder.

Pretty much all that is what he told me, he said it is getting spark and fuel, the car will crank, but will not fire. So I'm not sure what is going on. I don't think the service advisor has a clue either. I think I'm just going to talk to the Tech from now on. I'll keep you guys posted as to what they find.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

I Understand what he means by the inspection hole. Not sure why this is baffeling the tech so much though. Its a relatively easy diagnosis. As far as rust in the cylinders.. thats only on a car that has hydrolocked and then not started again after the hydrolock. The water sits in the cylinders and causes rust. A car that is run after the lock up and the water is cleared from the cylinders will not have rust present. Once the leakdown is performed we will know what direction to go. Should have been done immediately after the cylinder with low compression was found but you know the saying..shoulda woulda coulda...

Majofo

Shouldn't presence of water show up in the oil as well.. I'd get it analyzed to rule it out. -->Blackstone Labs

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Not usually but I have had one or two that have had that symptom. All depends on how much water gets drawn it. I had one once that had water pooled up in the intake!!

blokhead

I'm not sure why he is baffled by it either. I would think that he would want to clear the code for the crank sensor first, wouldn't you? And then worry why 1 cylinder has low compression (which shouldn't cause the car not to start?) They didn't do the leakdown today... Imagine that. I talked to the tech at noon and he said he was going to do it this afternoon, but alas, they didn't. I should find out tomorrow morning... I don't have much faith though...

As far as water in the cylinder, I'm 100% that they won't find any in the engine of the car. Like I stated before we had spent 15 hours driving from Memphis to SC and we got sprinkled on in the mountains almost 5 hours before the car died, (which coincidentally was when the pcm got fried and full of water from the AC) Man this crap is driving me crazy.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Hmf. I dont like it. The whole thing stinks. Well lets see what happens with the leakdown. Takes five minutes. Not sure why it wasnt done as of yet. Are you in a loaner? I would have cleared the code and retested to see if it came back. If there is no signal from the ckp then the car will not start so this may have some indication of what happened. It is possible that the coil may have shorted blowing a fuse... but the car wouldnt have started, driven, and then died. Well keep us posted. I am curious to see how this one plays out.

240sx acura tech

i don't like where this is going....

blokhead

I don't like it either. This dealer is very MOD aggressive, they don't like touching anything that has been modified and will try to blame anything on a MOD. I've got a CAI and Throttle body spacer for engine mods. I'm dropped on tein SS and also have rear camber kit, greddy exhaust and ATLP J pipe. Also Rotara pads and stoptech cross drilled rotors. That's it for mods. They just look at the car and say "whatever wrong, it's not covered because your car is modified" But Client care is involved and they are aware of my intake and stuff so hopefully they can talk some sense into the dealer. I'm just wondering if the tech is on a wild goose chase, going after the low compression before fixing anything else. Also I do field service and work for a manufacturer of (expensive) medical equipment, so I understand why they are hesitant, but they can't justify why they may be denying the warranty, other than, "your cars modified" Oh yeah, their other dealership by where I live, has done most of the work on the car and the first 4 or 5 services (I did the last one, they are really overpriced).

What is the low spec for compression in the cylinders? He stated all where around 200, but 6 was at 120?? When I talked with him today, he said it was low, but not "that bad" when I asked about a broken ring from possible detonation when the ECM fried. Is it possible that the low compression was there since the car was new??

Oh yeah, I'm not in a loaner, they have a company policy where the loaners can't leave the city. And since I live 120 miles... Also they don't allow loaners over the weekend. I'm about to ask for rental or something. I really don't need it, but my wife has been stuck at home for a week and half now, and she's really starting to get on me about...

Also I've been very careful to not name the Dealer here, but they are really close to me calling them about this.