blokhead

I spoke with the Tech working on the car. He did the Leakdown test, and all the cylinders are leaking bad. They are not leaking from the intake or exhaust valves. They are leaking around the rings. He also told me that when he took the spark plugs out, that they all smelt like gas, so Honda thinks that all the rings got washed out from fuel and that they want him to dump some oil in the combustion chamber to reseal the rings and then do a leak down test again. Also they want him to measure through the spark plug holes the depth of the pistons at tdc to check for bent rods (which unless I had catastrophic failure and an PCM full of water at the same time...) I expect they will all be good. They also don't have a new coil pack or ckp sensor yet, so...

Hopefully they will get it fixed soon and all problems are related to the water in the PCM.

I'll update again as soon as I hear something.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

What happened to five teeth off on the cam timing? Ugh. This just sickens me. This is why dealers end up with such a bad rap. We are supposed to be the "experts". As far as your mods go. If you brought your car to me and you had a CAI and your pcm was full of water... there would be no issue HOWEVER.. I would make a note of it in the computer. So should you return 2 months later with a bent rod misfiring all day long, your stock airbox tossed back in (you laugh but it's happened) we have a case. Its not about pointing fingers etc. Its about doing whats right by Honda AND the customer. People lose sight of that. It all comes down to lack of the general publics willingness to take some damn responsibilty for their own actions. It goes much further than the auto business and it really burns me. This is not directed at you in any way OP. If you cant afford to make the repairs should one of your aftermarket mods directly caused..then dont put the stuff on. Its simple as that. This also goes for the dealer. I have never denied someone something that IS a warranty issue. Like I said, when your HID kit melts your fuse box, Sorry..your beat, but if your ps pump lets go..its not "your HIDs caused it". Sorry for the rant! Its the funky work being performed at the dealer that set me off!

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

I think I figured it out. Heres my theory. I just spent a minute looking at a schematic. I am almost 100 percent on this too BTW. PCM had water in it. Fried coil pack. Coil packs powered by fuse 2 (15amp) drivers underdash fuse box. Coil pack grounding out popped that fuse. Guess what else is powered by that fuse...can anybody guess?? CKP sensors. Cylinders are washed out because the main relay is still supplying power to the fuel pump when cranking. Case closed. If I am right... YOU OWE ME!! Let me know!!

mmade22

Wow! I can't believe you are going through all of this bull shit....Blockhead, hope it all works out in the end but WTF? I know this isn't your fault, lets just hope the dealer realizes it and you get your car back safe and sound with a zero balance on the bill. Please keep us updated. My ride just hit 144,000 miles today....These cars are great but your case is a rare one.

Majofo

Looks like we have expert testimony here..

Lets hope this doesn't go that far though..

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

The suspense in KILLING me!! I hope if the tech does find that fuse blown he is man enough to admit it.

blokhead

Well... Bad news is I just talked to him and he said he got the crank sensor code cleared and acura wants him to order another pcm and 6 coil packs, since it is not sparking. Also he was unable to get the spark plug out of the cylinder with the melted coil pack, so it looks like a new head is in my future. Acura want's him to get the car running first (on 5 cylinders of course) before he does anything else...

Sorry Racinghart, I asked him twice about the fuse and he kind of brushed me both times...

I guess I won't know anything until tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for your kind words and encouragement.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

^ If that fuse is blown you will have no spark.......

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

And secondly...How the hell do you do a leakdown/compression test on a cylinder that you cant get a spark plug out of................................................ .........................

Majofo

yeah.. wtf?...

blokhead

My thoughts exactly... I don't know. I'm really at a loss right now. I'm going to go up there today and see for my self what is going on, oh yeah, and to get a loaner or rental. It's almost been 2 weeks now. I'll keep you guys posted.

blokhead

Also no update on to how, why, if the timing is off by 5 teeth....

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

I dont think it was. I think the tech guessed when the engine was washed and spinning funny. It SOUNDS like timing has jumped. This whole thing is a mess. I feel for you. You are the mercy of this tech at this point.........

Majofo

damn blokhead.. you should tow the TL to Racinghart's shop..

blokhead

Do you think acura would pay for the tow??? Cause I would damn sure do it in a minute... I've got no problem driving that far to pic it up.

Will Y.

Sorry blokhead, but it sounded like your car's service dept was off the mark from the start.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Well it will certainly be interesting to see the outcome of this one...

blokhead

So where do I send the case of beer/bottle of scotch??????

Jon, that's awesome that you hit 144,000 miles, thats 108,000 more than mine, and your's is still on the road!!!!!!!!!!!


Well... I finally told them today that I needed a loaner or rental, since the tech told me it would be a while since they couldn't even get the car started. They said they'd put me (wife) in a rental and I told them I'd be there this afternoon. Well I drive around the back of the service department and low and behold....... My car is sitting behind the service department (on a hill). I told my wife, they either got it cranked or they haven't looked at it in 2 days and I'm gonna be pissed if it's the latter.

I walked in and talked to the service manager, and asked him what was going on, is my car fixed or what bla bla (he really is a nice guy, even the wife thinks so... which is rare). He's like, yeah they got it started this morning... (I was thinking: hmmm, must have been around 8:40, since I talked to them at 8:30...). The service manager then told me he was going to find the tech so I could talk to him, and he could tell me what was going on with the car. The tech was on a test drive so we bs'd for a while and then he came in. I asked if I could go look at the damaged cylinder and take a few pics, they said yeah no problem and the tech took me out to the car and popped the hood.

He was telling me about the problems and that they haven't ever seen water in the pcm and we were talking about the 4 other cars in their service department that were flooded out in the past few day. So in their defense they do get a lot of hydrolocked and water damaged cars. (side bar: was they had a flooded rsx and the seats were out, would they fit in a TL? they look pretty nice and supportive)

I took a few pics of the destroyed cylinder, you've got to see it to believe it. I'll get them posted tonight or tomorrow. I asked him if the fuse was blown, "umm, yep." He did state in his defense, since I contacted ACC they had certain steps he had to follow and the honda tech line was having him check all the other crap, leading him on a wild goose chase....

I also asked about the jumped timing, "no, it's good"...., bent rods "nope", damaged combustion chambers? He did look at the cylinders with a light, and stated they looked like they are in good shape (all except cylinder #4, which has half a coil and half a spark plug stuck in it still.

They had ordered all the parts and as we where walking back in, he said hold on a minute, I'll check if everything is going to be in tomorrow. He checked and they all shipped and would be in, in the morning Parts that are coming:
- 6 coil packs
- 1 spark plug
- new head
- gaskets
- new valve cover (when you see the pics, you'll know why)

Hopefully they will get it fixed tomorrow (most likely Monday). He did state that he really wanted to test it good before he turns it over, so we'll see.

I should have the pics up by tomorrow morning.

ACCURATEin

Sounds like a damn nightmare brother. Hopefully they'll get that baby fired up and running good. I would have been scared shitless had this happened to me.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=blokhead;11160032]So where do I send the case of beer/bottle of scotch??????
Lol. Maybe some protein shakes. I dont drink haha.

... I asked him if the fuse was blown, "umm, yep." He did state in his defense, since I contacted ACC they had certain steps he had to follow and the honda tech line was having him check all the other crap, leading him on a wild goose chase....
[QUOTE]

One of the reasons I DON'T call them. I am confident in my skills as a diagnostic technician so therefore I diag it myself. I do call them to report findings and for legal reasons, usually when my rep sends me buy back cars for final repair attempts. Thats all dealer politics though. Anywho, So my theory was correct and now all we need to do is replace the head cuz it got mutilated during the removal of the spark plug! Eh. Not crazy about the whole thing but at least we sound like we are headed on the road to recovery.. Just curious.. did the tech ask how the hell you knew so much about the igntion circuit on your TL lol?

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=RACINGHART03;11161185][QUOTE=blokhead;11160032]So where do I send the case of beer/bottle of scotch??????
Lol. Maybe some protein shakes. I dont drink haha.

... I asked him if the fuse was blown, "umm, yep." He did state in his defense, since I contacted ACC they had certain steps he had to follow and the honda tech line was having him check all the other crap, leading him on a wild goose chase....

I think we had better keep him on a retainer for future use.
I know I could always use some expert advice.

blokhead

[QUOTE=RACINGHART03;11161185]Well If you ever make it down to Charleston SC, let me know I'll buy ya dinner at least. Thank you greatly for all the help. Hopefully the tech will get the head on without any problems and everything will be all good. He didn't ask me how I knew about the fuse, but I did tell him that I have some friends who are Master Technicians and where helping me out.

Actually, I think the dealer (Service Manager) has been reading this thread, the whole time the car has been in there. When I first posted it, if you googled "acura water pcm", this was like the 2nd or 3rd link. And every time I look at this thread it states one guest is viewing. Hopefully I haven't been too hard on them.

Well everyone, I'll try and get the pics posted today and thanks again for you help.

blokhead

Thanks Eric, I saw your little nightmare too, that just sucks, but I'm glad you got your car back finally. We need to get a meet set up in Charlotte again.

Majofo

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

I am forseeing a spark plug hole that looks like someone dropped a grenade into!!

blokhead

It definitely looked like that, the spark plug is broken off inside and the metal tube is destroyed but unfortunately after looking at my pictures, you can't see that well inside the spark plug well. Well here they are...









And how I hated seeing this...

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Well that sucks that the tech couldnt save the head but oh well. I hate to see engines taken apart for reasons that could have been avoided. AND it was the front head... the easy one to work on....

marcoguy

blokhead, Can Acura get to the real root cause of this problem? WHY did the AC freeze up and cause condensate from it to melt into the PCM? If the root cause is not found, this could happen again. This happened to my wife's 06 Chrysler 300 and a TSB software mod fixed the freeze up problem.

An extended warranty on this issue or something should be in the warranty record for you; that the cause on this problem is unknown to prevent it from happening again

I just bought a 06 TL and am really interested in the real cause of this problem like you are.

chill_dog

So, did you get your car back today?

blokhead

Nope... I went in there at 2pm and it was still sitting in the back lot.

I agree, I would much rather have an unmolested engine, but oh well. Also, they got the head in, a bare head, and they told me it would be a few days before they could have a local machine shop replace all the valves and valve guides/springs/retainers and everything else. But the Tech did tell me he is getting parts to order a complete head and that it should be here today... I guess we'll see.


I spoke with them (service manager, and a few of the techs) and I don't think the root cause will ever be found, unless Acura comes up with a TSB about it and can explain it. I'm at a loss as to how it happend. The tech even took the drain line out (it's still out) and verified that nothing was clogging it up...

I just hope it doesn't happen again. If Acura doesn't have a TSB about the problem by the time I go out of warranty, I'm going to fabricate something that covers the PCM/connector so water can't get in it, and it will drain around it.

Majofo

WTF? they're rebuilding your front head? Tell them if they're going to take it out you want them to R&R a new one under warranty, jeez.. I thought all the intake & exhaust valves were fine and you just had a messed up spark plug thread... I can't believe they're sending it out for a complete rebuild, sounds redundant and retarded.. make sure they put in a new gasket as well..

blokhead

I might not have been to clear in my earlier thread. They did get a new head, but it was just the bare casting, ie no valves and stuff. Which meant they where going to take all the parts out of my head and put them in the new casting, which would add an assload of time, since the dealer doesn't do that kind of work, they have to send it off to a machine shop to get done.

But the tech had parts order a new complete head, so that way I can get the car back faster and also less chance of something going wrong (ie machine shop not get the valves seated correctly...)

So I'll find out this afternoon if they got the new complete head in and I'll let you guys know.

Majofo

^ okay.. hope you get it back 100%, make sure they do replace your gasket too.. also I believe they have to remove the timing belt with a head removal, might as well get that replaced as well.

marcoguy

Just a thought...If the PCM was wet inside and water could not be found elsewhere, that seems very strange. Is it possible that the water entered the PCM thru the cable harness, but at the other end of the harness, where ever that is? I know that water can travel thru cable harness wires by capillary action, if water could enter at the other end. The question is what harness was the path (if this is the path of water penetration) and how did the condensate get in that location? Your idea of a shield would help, if water was dripping directly on the PCM housing. Good Luck with the engine repair.

Majofo

That seems like a stretch.. I think there is a higher probability that the drain line could be backed up with gunk (dirt / dust mixed with condensate), which lead to the leak. I would have them replace the evap & lines since they can't pinpoint the failure, or at least get them to clean it out..

chill_dog

Did they figure out what the CEL was?

blokhead

Well where to start... Here are some pics of the combustion chambers..










I got the car back Thursday, it was running fine at the dealer when we picked it up. We drove it home the 120 miles, and when we where 1 mile from the house the check engine light came on. Shut it off and on a few times, the light stayed on. Called the local dealer and set up an appointment for Friday at 1100. The car was running kinda rough and hesitating a bit. Also the exhaust smelt like unburned gas, a lot, especially while idling.

Friday the dealer looked at it and reset the check the check engine light, codes P0430, P0420. (Also the mentioned my CAI and throttle body spacer and stated that they could cause the car to run lean) Drove the car towards home, at the store parking lot after about 50 miles, the check engine light came back.

This time I let the wife deal with it, since I was busy. She called the local the dealer and chewed them out good, also mentioning to them about the CAI and throttle body spacer that was on the car for 2 years, and they had serviced it and never mentioned anything, so she called them out on that. They told her to bring it in they would look at it Monday (today) and they would have a loaner ready for her when she got there. Dropped it off and it is still sitting at the dealer, waiting for an update.

I'll let you guys now when I hear something...

mmade22

HOLY SHIT!!!! Sean, I am a loss for words man. What is going on here? Is this dealer not capable of fixing it so now they are going to point to your different mods as the cause of the problem? I am pissed off for you man and to think it has been two weeks and the car still isn't fixed. This just isn't right and they better make it right. This is the dealers last chance to do the right thing before I would raise hell with corporate!

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

^^ Sorry to hear about your car man but looks like your wife did a good job tearing the dealer a new one lol let her deal with it now. Tell them if your car is not fixed by tomorrow the wife will be calling again.

blokhead

I hear ya Jon (sp), this has been really frustrating (Today is 3 weeks without the car, -1 day when we drove it home and then took it to the local dealer, which is owned by the same dealer where my car was at for 2.5 weeks). If I could get the parts for free, I would fix it myself... I've already got a call open with Acura Client Services, the guy actually called me today to see how things where going.

On a side note, the dealer is replacing both the front and rear bank cats tomorrow. Also I don't think I mentioned that the damn car sounds like a sewing machine, the valves are super loud. The local dealer is going to adjust them again. I hope that the new head isn't f'd up. Talk about a nightmare.

I don't know if the cats are the only problem, ie caused by the damaged pcm dumping an assload of fuel into the chambers, or there is a deeper problem causing the cats to crap out, ie car not put back together correctly or a bad pcm (wouldn't be the first time i've seen DOA parts).

Well, wish me luck on getting the car back to the way it was before water decided to fill up the PCM......