blokhead

Thanks. I told the dealer today when I stopped by that I would do my best to keep them from having to deal with my wife, she don't play.

Also I'll give them a couple of days to get it right, since who knows what damage was done... Oh yeah, she is in a 09 TSX, so she is kinda satisfied. She had a Mitsubishi Gallant for a rental from the other dealer, she definitely wasn't happy about that. She has been in a mood lately for sure.

chill_dog

We talked Thursday; it's Tuesday, and they still don't know what's wrong? CAI and spacers? Let me guess, it'll take a week (from now) to get parts and get it fixed .

I don't blame her (or you) for being pissed...you're looking at almost a month without your car. Half of that, without a loaner, trapping her at home! Hopefully, whenever you finally get your car back, it's like it was before.

blokhead

Well we got the car back today... They replaced both precats and the check engine light is gone, it doesn't smell like gas and the rattle from underneath the car is gone....

Now the bad stuff. The car has definitely lost power, and has a slight stumble when around 3000rpm and you floor it in third, you can definitely feel it hesitate a bit, a couple of times actually.

Well I'll give it a few days and then take it back in if keeps doing it. Anyone have any ideas as to what it may be??????

Thanks in advance.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

My god. This car is STILL not fixed????

blokhead

Nope. I'm about to call the local dealer. When the wife pulled the car into the garage and shut it off, I heard something very weird. It made 3 distinct clicking noises. I investigated it further and found it was coming from the throttle body. I took the intake off, and the butterfly valve is sitting at an angle, not straight up and down, when the car is off, or when on at idle. Also when the car is shut off, it tries to close itself and is "hunting" for the shut position, which is where the clicking is coming from. I don't know wtf they did to my car, all I know is it was running excellent before it died 3 weeks ago.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Its probably just the self test the pcm is performing on the throttle contol actuator but I cant be sure without hearing it. The throttle plate will be a a slight angle at idle since that is how the pcm controls idle air flow. I wouldnt worry too much about this to be honest.

mmade22

Damn, Sean I really don't understand this....It is a dealer you brought the car too?? I mean, they should know the car like the back of there hand and you shouldn't be having these issues. If you can rent a compression tester and see what each cylinder is at compared to the others. This doesn't sound good at all....This car is so young and it's a shame all this has happened to it.

blokhead

I hear ya Jon. The wife is already looking at getting a new a car, she's pissed at Acura right now... Even afraid the damn thing is going to break down on her with the kids in it. She has no faith in the car or Acura. It rolled 37,000 miles when we took it to the dealer last week. Also it is going back monday. I keep hearing something rattling around the third cat, this weekend I'm changing the oil to Mobil 1 and pulling the third cat out. I think it may be some of the substrate from the precats that died... Maybe that's my whole issue right now with the loss of power and stumbling I get when I floor it. Maybe the exhaust is half blocked up...

I hate cars

That sounds like a solid theory. When an exhaust gets plugged, depending on how bad, power is usually ok in the lower rpms and it struggles more and more as rpms rise.

What came of the cylinder with the low compression?

Just for reference, when mine is idling the throttle blade is barely cracked open. You can hardly see a gap.

If timing is one tooth off, it's possible the engine can still run but it will be very low on power and will have no top end or won't get into the powerband until redline. More than 1 tooth and it won't run.

Something to think about, on my car they had a recall for the ECM getting flooded with engine coolant. It turned out to be the coolant temp sensor going bad and letting coolant into the plug. The weatherpack was tight enough that the water made it's way through the insulation and into the ECM 8' away. The fix was a weatherpack that would let water drip out.

There's also the possibility that it fried some other sensors or solenoids like it did the coil, just to a lesser degree.

Did they ever readjust the valves?

blokhead

They told me that the cylinder with low compression was due to fuel washdown of the cylinder, and that the leakdown check failed for the same reason (it was leaking past the rings).

When the car is idling the butterfly valve is slightly cracked, as RacingHart said, which is normal, but when you shut the car off, you can watch the butterfly valve try to close (it doesn't) and you can hear it clicking, almost like it is stripping gears.

The car isn't throwing any codes right now, the 4 problems I have are:

1. Valves are loud as hell, sounds like a sewing machine (actually almost exactly like a D16 in a 94 civic with 120,000 miles on it)

2. Rattle underneath around the third cat (possible substrate from the precats??) I haven't investigated it yet, but I am this weekend.

3. Throttle body not working correctly (as stated above)

4. Definite hesitation, you can really feel it around 3K rpm when in third gear, if you floor it you can feel the hesitation...

5. Last but not least, the car is way down on power, it feels like the 4 cylinder tsx we had as a loaner.


I would like to get a data logger so I can see what the hell is going on. I'm wondering if the knock sensors are pulling timing due to my loud valves... ???

blokhead

It sucks when your local dealer SUCKS... We told them about the rattle underneath and it was down on power. They didn't do a damn thing about it when it was in last (for the precats replacement). Today I decided to change the oil from the Honda crap they put in when they changed the head. I think using Mobil 1 caused the valves to quite down a bit. I'll need to do an extended road test to be sure. Also I cleaned the throttle body, and it seems to have fixed the butterfly valve from hunting to close when the car is shut off.

Also I pulled the third cat. It was full of substrate from the precats. It was blocking about 1/4 of the third cat. Also it has a bunch of pieces stuck in the substrate. I banged on it a bit and blew some compressed air through it, but I was able to get it out. Should I try to get Acura to give me a new third cat??? or should I just gut it???

I haven't driven it yet because I'm taking off the front bumper to reseal my head lights. I'll get some pics of the shit that was in the third cat and try to get one of the clogged substrate. It's not much, but maybe around 30-50 of the cells are clogged. I'm hoping that is why I had some hesitation and the car was down on power.

I'll get some pics today or tomorrow and post em up, also I'll let you know what else I find and if it is running good.

Inaccurate

If you had time to wait -- which I know you don't -- you could order a test pipe. Seeing that you need to get the car running again soon, I say GUT THE 3rd.

The 3rd cat is not used for anything other than for Honda/Acura to brag about how "Green" their cars are for the tree-huggers. You will still pass a sniffer and visual test.

Now, where is that piece of pipe and your hammer

blokhead

Unfortunately I already put it back in... What a pain in the ass, wouldn't be bad if I was on a lift, but my fat ass under the car on jack stands (and the claustrophobic wife didn't help matters much). I'm going to try and get Acura to replace it (the only reason being that if/when I supercharge it, that will be the only cat I have, I will get the precat deletes...) or I will get the resonated test pipe. The Greddy exhaust already drones, don't want to add to that.

If Acura doesn't replace I'm gonna raise hell. I've got some nice pics that I'll post when I get em downloaded (took my oldest daughter to a minor league baseball game tonight, what a blast!).

DanL

iTrader: (2)

Nearly all emission control parts, including catalytic converters, are covered for 8 years /80,000 miles by federal law. Take a look at the warranty book that came with your car. However, my guess is that your lame dealership will try to put the blame on your mods.

blokhead

Well, it sounded good when I first put in the new oil, but after running it hard, the damn thing sounds like a sewing machine again. I can't tell, but I thing I hear some piston slap .

Well the good news is the car is running pretty well (besides the above), it appears I have most of power back. I reset my PCM, since the 2 precats where probably toasted from the drive home after they put in the new ecu, and then the third cat was blocked. After resetting it and driving the piss out of it, it appears to be mostly back. Well here are some pics...

Hmmmm, what could that be????



Oh, did that come out of there????



You can see some of the blockage still in the cat...





Time for a new J pipe...



Cause of my shimming at 70mph???



Man I wish I had a lift!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hate cars

Wow, you've made some progress.

Your valvetrain noise can definately set off the knock sensor. I've experienced this first hand. Best thing to do and I know you already know this, put it on a scanner with some good gas and see if it's pulling timing. If anything shows up at idle you can be sure it's the valvetrain doing it.

I would make it a priority to get them adjusted. It's more likely that there's way too much lash but if there's not enough exhaust valve clearance, the valve can hang partially open and overheat.

I have a feeling that adjusting the valves will cure the problem.

Don't know if I would worry about a couple cells being plugged up. It's pretty normal to a few that are plugged, especially since the 3rd cat is practically a high flow already with it's low cell per inch count.

Good luck.

remantrans

That will def. be covered under warranty. We see cats burn up all the time from raw fuel being dumped into them. Obviously the front cats are the first to go being directly up front in the exhaust stream. This leads the the clogging of the third cat. No if ands or buts this will be covered.

As far as the valves go. They should be readjusted after 500-1000 miles if a reman head is installed. This is normal as a sort of "break in" on the new head. There is no real break in per say, but it's always a good idea to follow this routine.

blokhead

Welcome to AZ, there is a wealth of info here...

As far as the car goes, it is at Acura now. They kinda gave me a hard time about me pulling the third cat. But they are gonna cover it, and they also are going to do a valve adjustment. The tech had a call in to the Honda Tech line about the throttle body, so no word on that yet. I'll let everyone know what they find. At least they did acknowledge that it was definitely too loud. Oh yeah, I've got about 500 miles on the new head. Thanks again everyone.

chill_dog

Glad to see you're finally making some progress.

White Venom

We had an 08 TL at my dealership with the same issues but not as bad. the pcm was filled with water, but we didnt find that right away. techline had us on a wild goose chase trying to find the cause. after finding the pcm, we replaced it and evrything was ok not too much damage done. sorry to hear about all of your problems

remantrans

Thanks for the welcome. Good to hear that you are getting somewhere. I feel that the throttle body issue is going to be a null issue. These new Acura's control the idle through the movement of the butterfly now that they are all fly by wire. I believe this was previously stated. That hunting that you are referring to is the self test of the electronic throttle. As long as your idle is on point, there most likely isn't an issue.

blokhead

Got the car back yesterday afternoon. They replaced the third cat and adjusted the valves. It is definitely quieter, it sounds like it should. Also it seems like it has all it's power back, even when it is hot and been running for a while.

The last thing left is the throttle body still hunting when it shut off. They troubleshot it and found that it is the PCM causing the problem, so they are going to replace the PCM again sometime next week.

Hopefully that will be the last of this saga, and the car will be 100%.

Thank you guys for all your help and support, I really appreciate it.

marcoguy

Blokhead...Glad you are getting your Acura working and will enjoy it again. Hope your PCM is not wet this time...Did a Google search on Acura PCM getting wet and found this comment.

/forums/f87/misfire-all-cylinders-88857/

Here was one of the responses...

"feel the top of the pcm or remove the pcm and look signs of water damage. the evaps drain runs right above the pcm and when it gets glogged it leaks onto the pcm causing misfires and other problems depending on how bad the water intrusion is. We see this alot at the dealership I work at. If the pcm is good and you are capable of data logging misfires see which cylinder is misfiring the most of them all and try swapping coils with another cylinder and see if the misfires follow. One cylinder misfiring can cause all of the cylinders to misfire."

With other comments on this site, I believe there is a possible pattern failure mode taking place. Someone in Acura Quality/Reliability/Engineering should be monitoring PCM warranty returns/costs on this problem. (With the amount of PCM's being replaced for getting wet.) Acura engineering should find a fix! Maybe your dealer could help with a temporary fix with your water shield idea for the PCM or find out if you have a clear flow of condensate leaving the evaporator. (Maybe this was done?)

Called Acura Client Services (800-382-2238), to try to get Acura to address the PCM getting wet problem. The best that they could do was to log the concern and code it. I suggested a warranty cost analysis on what this wet PCM problem is costing Acura, should be performed. (If the data supports that it is an big enough issue, than take some action to address it.) The Acura Client Service rep suggested asking the Dealer to work thru their channels, to get some attention on this problem. Also, if everyone who has a concern that this problem should be addressed by Acura, call the Acura Client Services and have them log it. Maybe the squeaky wheel will get some attention???

marcoguy

/forums/f87/misfire-all-cylinders-88857/


Should be:

/forums/f87/misfire-all-cylinders-88857/

Inaccurate

REMOVE THE RED X

Interesting..... our site is preventing "acuraXworld" from being posted !

People will need to cut-n-paste to view.

http://www.acuraXworld.com/forums/f87/misfire-all-cylinders-88857/

REMOVE THE RED X FIRST

mmade22

Haven't been on here in a while but this is the first thread I read. I am so glad to see you are finally getting your car back to normal status! Keep us updated after the pcm is replaced. How could they give you shit about taking the third cat out and doing the work they should have done? If they had done things right the first time, you wouldn't have had to do there job. Good job Sean!

blokhead

Yeah, tell me about it. If they would of fixed the shit right the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time I wouldn't of had to do it myself.

Well one new development. The car is idling like shit now, shaking like Shakira's ass. Hope it's just the pcm. I don't know why they just didn't replace the whole throttle body to start, the damn thing is only like $250 and is easier to replace than the pcm.

Majofo

A shaky idle is probably related to the intake.. either the throttle body or a vac leak. Unless the throttle body was the problem, replacing it wouldn't have worked. If it was the throttle body and they replaced the pcm then that would've been moronic. Since the t/b issue was singular, the only link to a pcm issue would have been the connection / connector otherwise there would have been other issues. Hope you get it running smooth again..

I hate cars

I agree about the intake leak causing the idle. On these Speed Density cars, a vacuum leak in the plenum will only cause a high idle. If it's in the runners and only affects one or two cylinders, it will idle bad.

I also have to wonder that if the one coil melted completely from the water in the ECM, could it have caused damage to the remaining "good" ones.

blokhead

They replaced all 6 coil packs. Also they just adjusted the valves, so they had to take the intake manifold off, that could explain the shitty idle... I'm going to check it out tomorrow. If I can't find anything, back to the dealer it goes...

I swear the dealer has driven my car more in the last 2 months than me or the wife have...

the Warden

I'm blockhead's "warden" my car is fu$@ed!!! At idle, the whole car vibrates like a dildo on steroids. I'm so sick of Acura/Acura Client Service!!! I'm to the point that I want to get rid of anything that has to do with the Acura/Honda name.

I have finally given Sean an ultimatum that if the car isn't fixed by the Dragon run in Oct. that we will no longer be in the Acura family. Unfortunately, this makes me very sad, as I love my car. He's beautiful and right where I want him to be. (minus a supercharger).

So we will see. I will give it a few more weeks, then if things are still the same as they are now, we will have to bid you Adieu. Hopefully you guys would still let us come up to the meets and c&c.

chill_dog

You must've done really well in creative writing

the Warden

LOL...of course I did...

blokhead

Well, we've had the car for a few weeks now, it runs pretty well. Still vibrates a bit on cold startup, but that goes away (mostly). I did a breakdown of everything they replaced and the list price of each part, man it would have been expensive, just in parts alone. Here is everything they replaced...

18190-RCA-L00 Converter...........376.33
18290-RCA-L00 Converter...........417.05
18115-RCA-A01 Gasket................4.42x2 = 8.82
18212-SA7-003 Gasket x2............5.50x2 = 11.00
37820-RDA-A24 Control M (twice)...543.37
18160-RCA-S00 Converter.............263.63
18393-SDB-A00 Gasket..................7.38
18302-SP0-003 Gasket..................7.82
30520-RCA-A02 Coil Plug x6............89.73x6= 538.38
9807B-5617W Spark Plug..............18.35
06110-RDA-A04 Gasket pack..........164.37
10004-RDA-A01 Front Cyl head.......784.88
15400-PLM-A02 Oil Filter.................7.04
94109-14000 Washer.................0.32
OL999-9011A Coolant
Oil 5 qts
12310-RCA-A03 Valve Cover...........140.03
04317-RCA-305 Tensioner...............161.07


Total in parts alone: $3449.84

Ouch...

mmade22

I was just wondering what was going on with this. Glad to see all has worked out for ya Sean. Your car is so sweet and you finally got it where you wanted it...It would suck to give it up and start over with something else. We need to get an NC and SC meet soon....or at least when I am in your neck of the woods, meet up for a beer or three.

blokhead

Come on down... we are having a meet in Columbia on the 3rd, after C&C, you should come on down. I'm sure we'll have 1 or 5 beers somewhere after the meet. Jack is coming down to..

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...3#post11323203