ok so...i bought my tl from a local Honda dealership about 3 weeks ago. two weeks to the day the clutch starts slipping. so since ive owned a m/t car since i was 15(22 now) i knew that i needed to get it home. so im at a stop light, i put it in first let off the clutch and it gets that feeling like its about to stall. instead of stalling it just slips completly and i have no drive. then i hear a HUGE thud(almost like that hard thud you get when you bottom out) and thats it...i knew then the clutch was def shot. the weird thing is, if it was the just the pressure plate then there is no way i could even get it into gear position without grinding the crap out of the gears. anybody have an idea what might have gone wrong? its got about 70,000 miles on it if that helps.

 

damn...sorry bud, no idea but i would defintely take it back to that dealer as you have only had it 2 weeks. maybe they can go 50/50 on it with you.... g' luck

 

Wow, that's horrible. Too hard to diagnose by your description but if you have no warranty coverage, you might want to find someone else instead of the dealer.

 

UPDATE

So the dealer called me today. they figured out the problem. apparently the TLs have a 2 part flywheel b/c of the high torque engine. well these separated and burned the clutch friction disk completely out. or something like that. Long story short the fix is going to be around $1800. Needless to say i was a little pissed! I immedatly asked if this would be covered under the dealer 30 day warranty. the guy said that b/c these were "wearable parts"(i knew they were having owned 5 m/t cars) they would in fact not be covered. so now after handing them 14.5K not two weeks ago I have to fork over another 2K. UNACCEPTABLE! i right away asked to speak to salesman/dealer finance manager that had sold me the car. I explained the situation and told him that they NEEDED to stand behind their product. after about 30 mins of getting the run around I asked to talk to the Owner of the dealership. So now i get him on the horn and i politely say "the fact that your dealership that i was refered to by at least 30 people, the only high end cadillac/gmc/honda dealer in the area is failing to stand behind a vehicle that i had for two weeks is completely and utterly unacceptable!" so again....long story short he agreed with me and also agreed to cover the cost of the clutch/2 piece fly wheel to be replaced. He only asked that I pay for the $100 deductable. I very happily agreed. so now i get brand spankin new clutch and flywheel for $100! if any of you are in this situation....keep climbing up the ladder. youll get what you want if you talk to the right people!

 

Glad it worked out for you.

I recently learned about the 2 part FW and that it's there to spare the drivetrain. My replacement will be a lightweight one piece FW.

You should also check out the slave cylinder mod. It'll change your life!

 

Can you elaborate on your plans to fit a standard flywheel & clutch?

You won't be able use the regular disc either cause it's a solid hub. I know the guys from Team Honda Research had modified a Comptech clutch/flywheel combo for the 2G TL-S to fit, but I could never find out the details of how it was done. I wonder what all it takes...

 

I'd hardly call the engine in the '04 TL, or any factory TL for that matter, "high torque". At 238 ft/lbs from 196 cubic inches, it's rather low in the torque department and it's a rather small engine to boot. But it does do a remarkable job.

 

Yep. And without the torque dissipation springs normally aligned around the hub, we do get chattering from time to time. This is most common when the cooler months are here and you are just starting out.

 

.. glad you stayed cool & professional and worked everything out. The dealership, especially the service shop, makes a lot of money and $1.8k is ridiculous. Hopefully you won't have any other clutch issues.. btw.. Tell them to fill the MT with GM Synchromesh.

 

Make that GM Synchromesh Friction Modified fluid, part #12377916.

 

When referring to aftermarket kits, having springs or not depends on the 'stage' or use, doesn't it?

When I do cook my clutch, I am planning on getting a kit that does have a solid FW and springs on the friction plate, not the hardcore kit.

My point was that my goal is to dump the DM FW when it comes time to change. Maybe they'll even have the right ring gear by then.

 

Not when it comes to the 3G TL. There are no options for aftermarket replacments. And as far as I know, the only thing that's ever been fitted is the Comptech 2G TL clutch/flywheel combo. This has no options/stages...

Here's the OEM stuff for people who haven't seen it:

 

Yes it was rediculas...and the owner agreed...

 

Not true. Check some of the clutch threads in the perf section. There are several people who are running CM clutches.

 

The springs in the friction disk hub serve two primary purposes: 1) to reduce chatter, sometimes called shutter, when initially engaging, and 2) to help dampen some of the shock to the drive train on harder engagements.

I'm really not sure why Honda/Acura decided to go with a solid hub disk, perhaps someone else can offer a reason.. 94eg, do you have a take on this one? I do know they elected to use the delay valve as a dampening device for hard or aggressive engagements, though.

Just curious. You inferred that you may be of a mind to swap out the ring gear. What ratio would you go with and why (other than the obvious)?

 

When I read your initial post I as aghast that the dealer was not willing to stand behind the work. I had thought it was pretty common (perhaps law in some places) that a used vehicle comes with a certain level of warranty and since your clutch went out so quickly and suddenly, one would think they would honor things. But then again, they have no knowledge as to whether or not you were abusing or racing the car so they're just taking a common sense precaution one might think. Still, so soon after purchase... I'm glad things worked out for you with this.

Also, I learned something from this. I had no idea the TL uses a two-part flywheel. Can anyone explain the "why" of this?

 

For whatever reason, the aftermarket crowd hasn't been able to match the tooth count. So the solution is to send in your stock FW and they remove it and mount it to their FW. There is an active discussion about this in the Perf section.

 

Ok, we're talking two different things. A ring gear, in the context to which I was referring, is part of the final drive assembly and would be married to a pinion gear.

Sorry.

 

They use the solid hub disc because they've elected to run a dual-mass flywheel. The dual-mass flywheel is nice because it serves the same purpose as the sprung hub, but it also reduces crank harmonics.

Crank harmonics are generated by the hard impacts of ignition being resisted by the heavy flywheel. This causes the crank to twist back & forth with every ignition (especially the journals farthest away from the flywheel). This is why it necessary to run a harmonic damper on the opposite end of the crank (yes the crank pulley) to help slow and control this twisty springy motion within a specific rpm window.

By putting the heavy mass of the flywheel AFTER the sprung portion of the clutch system, you can reduce the amount flex experienced in the crank while maintaining a smooth drive train. Of course this adds much complexity and cost to the system.

It will be interesting to see if the newer TL's retain the dual-mass flywheel or what...

 

Great answer! Thanks so much.

 

This is from the TL Press release on the Honda site

CLUTCH AND DUAL-MASS FLYWHEEL

The TL's manual transmission is equipped with a compact clutch unit that is self-adjusting for consistent pedal height, feel, and effort throughout its service life. This innovative clutch system automatically eliminates the slack between the pressure plate and clutch disc thus lowering release loads while maintaining consistent pressure for the diaphragm spring. The clutch mechanism incorporates a clutch feel compensation spring that results in a more linear engagement feel.

To reduce drivetrain shock and limit the torque load on transmission components, the clutch includes a one-way delay valve located in the slave cylinder that restricts return fluid flow during rapid clutch engagement. This makes the clutch engagement more gradual during rapid release.

A dual-mass flywheel helps to reduce noise, cut down the transfer of engine vibration into the cabin, and provide increased comfort during shifting. This unit is divided into two flywheels with a torsion spring and viscous damper sandwiched between the two. This design enhances the durability of the synchronizers, reduces vibration and gear rattle, and reduces the shift load.

 

I thank you as well, sir, for your research and answer.

Acura's use of a dual mass flywheel is curious to me since I have owned three other V6 manual transmission cars and none of those had a dual mass flywheel. My two Contours were quite a bit better in the clutch and transmission category than my '02 Altima SE was. And their DuraTec engine was every bit the equal of the VQ Nissan in its design. So I imagine that Honda/Acura's decision to go with a dual mass flywheel was to maintain a measure of luxury feel in their high end performance sports sedan TL.

I decided to do a little research as well, which I should have done anyway, and found this among a host of other items;



"Some notes on application pros and cons:

The dual mass systems are designed to transmit less engine vibration to the driveline, and give a better more car like driving experience. They also reduce some of the jarring and stress on the transmission and remainder of the drivetrain. They work fine as long as the engine remains unmodified and the vehicle is not used/abused beyond manufacturers recommendations.

As soon as you start to increase the engine power over stock, or load the vehicle beyond design parameters, you run into problems. Dual mass flywheels are tuned systems and must be matched to the engine torque curve, engine resonant characteristics, vehicle load curves (including axle ratio/tire size calculations). They work by having a set of springs inserted between two rotating masses (thus dual mass). The springs are sized to soak up some of the resonant vibration from the diesel engine under load conditions. A dual mass fly wheel generally also contains an over torque friction release, so if it gets suddenly overloaded, rather than damage the springs, it slips. This works fine as a safety valve, but if it does it much it burns up. In short, overloaded they burn up and the springs get destroyed and they are worse than if it were a single mass FW.

The single mass part WILL tend to transmit more engine pulse (vibration) tot he drivetrain, and will seem a bit rougher. But it is straight forward to design a single mass flywheel and clutch package for pretty much any engine torque curve and vehicle loading combo you can come up with. Drives more like a TRUCK, but has much better reliability at extreme use levels.

Depending on what you have done to your engine and how you use and load your truck, we can supply a single mass flywheel and clutch system properly sized for your truck. Ballpark $600 for a mildly massaged engine, more for extreme applications."


Based upon this description, it appears that aggressive driving of the TL is to be avoided lest we begin the destruction of our clutch assemblies.

 

I take all this stuff as a way to make a performance luxury automobile. It seems to me that they wanted to make a system with less transfer of engine/driveline vibrations to the cabin along with a self adjusting feature that keeps the pedal in the same position.

Just from the check valve in the slave cylinder and the effect it does have on spirited driving is obvious that they don't want you to drive hard. Once removed, I can't believe how much more fun it is to drive.