Type S turbo build, remote mount
#321
Yea it's a bummer but we will get it going soon
Last edited by UTAH TSX; 02-08-2015 at 10:38 PM.
#322
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
Damn that sucks guys. Was that still on 4lbs or had you upped it a bit? With all these pistons going out, I'm tempted to build the motor before I turbo it. The only thing that has me thinking otherwise is that a TL3.2 or MDX 3.5 is such a cheap motor, I can toss another one in 4 or 5 times before it costs the same as building the motor. But who wants to do that that many times?
Any indication of the root cause?
Any indication of the root cause?
#324
Racer
Terrible news. I was hoping that what happened to my pistons was a fluke and you would be going strong. Sorry to see that the pistons in the Type S are just fatally weak and can't withstand boost.
#325
Let me know what the rest of the remaining portions of the failing pistons look like -- and the rest of them as well (maybe others have stress fractures already, ready to go as well?).
I know the rods on the motor aren't very strong, I was honestly expecting you to lose a rod before a piston fell apart...
I know the rods on the motor aren't very strong, I was honestly expecting you to lose a rod before a piston fell apart...
#326
Damn that sucks guys. Was that still on 4lbs or had you upped it a bit? With all these pistons going out, I'm tempted to build the motor before I turbo it. The only thing that has me thinking otherwise is that a TL3.2 or MDX 3.5 is such a cheap motor, I can toss another one in 4 or 5 times before it costs the same as building the motor. But who wants to do that that many times?
Any indication of the root cause?
Any indication of the root cause?
#328
runnin a little boost
iTrader: (3)
I think what Rodney figured out early on was the importance of running the car very rich. I had 50k trouble free turbo miles after about 30k with the SC and primitive management. All the new turbo guys didn't know to tune so rich. Also refusing to use methanol in a high comp turbo build was a poor idea. I also don't see the point in running the same compression ratio as stock in a forged build for boost.
#329
I think what Rodney figured out early on was the importance of running the car very rich. I had 50k trouble free turbo miles after about 30k with the SC and primitive management. All the new turbo guys didn't know to tune so rich. Also refusing to use methanol in a high comp turbo build was a poor idea. I also don't see the point in running the same compression ratio as stock in a forged build for boost.
#330
Racer
I wonder if the different pistons between the 3.2L and 3.5L engines makes any difference in their abilities to handle boost? I was running water/meth the final time that my pistons cracked. I haven't been by the shop to see which pistons cracked and whether or not the skirts of any broke off.
I guess forged pistons are just a requirement for boosting the 3.5L Type S...
I guess forged pistons are just a requirement for boosting the 3.5L Type S...
#331
runnin a little boost
iTrader: (3)
The SC was low boost at 3 -5 psi but , my point was more the lack of proper engine management that could have harmed the engine. I don't know much about the type-s pistons but they seem to be more delicate that those in the 3.2 or the tune used is more aggressive. Is Vit take any responsibility for the failure. ( reduced tuning cost ). The J&R turbo guys also have knock indicators that might have saved our engines when the engine began to knock. I know my blow by happened after some heavy knock I never heard only saw the LED flashing.
#332
Advanced
The SC was low boost at 3 -5 psi but , my point was more the lack of proper engine management that could have harmed the engine. I don't know much about the type-s pistons but they seem to be more delicate that those in the 3.2 or the tune used is more aggressive. Is Vit take any responsibility for the failure. ( reduced tuning cost ). The J&R turbo guys also have knock indicators that might have saved our engines when the engine began to knock. I know my blow by happened after some heavy knock I never heard only saw the LED flashing.
I'm in contact with Scott & Dean on a regular basis and am waiting on the engine tear down -- the information I have so far is the engine was actually running, no smoke (blow by, ie signs of melted pistons, cracked ring lands, etc), and very noisy (due to the dropped skirts). Spark plugs even check out fine -- the motor's been running clean.
Once they have the motor torn down we'll known more -- and you can be assured I'll be there along the way to make sure we get the car back up and running.
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UTAH Type-S (02-09-2015)
#333
Wow, well great build man and outstanding work! I hope you can get her going again soon so we can allow follow our dream builds on your an your dads footsteps. Hopeful to see a powerful Turbo TL going strong soon!!
Sean
Sean
#335
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
That might not be a bad thought. The J32 has a high rod/stroke ratio - 1.8:1. I forget what it is on the J35, but I think it's in the 1.6x:1, and I'm too lazy to go look up the rod length right now.
I don't know if that would be the sole cause of the issue outright though. I do think there must be an inherent difference between the J32 and J35 as far as strength is concerned though.
LSthatch ran tons of passes (granted on 110 octane) @ 700+whp and 20psi from an S372 without issue on a J32A2 motor. Yes, he had one drop a valve, and he overboosted one, but those do not qualify as 'blowing the motor' to me.
I know there are differences in an all out 1/4 mile pass vs. street driving, but if the motor can handle the stress of that much power and torque repeatedly, then it should be able to handle 8 or 10psi from these setups. Also, if we assume that detonation/tuning is not an issue in these instances since maddog had meth, and Utahs' logs were clean, there has to be another cause.
Utah - did you get the rest of the motor apart yet? Any damage to the tops of the pistons, or any other clues? I'm not apt to simply dismiss it as 'weak piston' yet.
maddog - you said it cracked a piston on the dyno with meth? Did a ring land crack, or was it elsewhere? Got any pics of the pistons?
My plan originally was to use an Odyssey 3.5 long block (added displacement and 10:1 CR), but if there is something weaker about these pistons, I may stay with the TL 3.2. Longblocks are cheap enough that's for sure.
As much as I hate to admit that Matt (I hate cars) was probably right the whole time, my initial suspicion now is that the ring end gap is REALLY tight on these, maybe tighter on the 3.5 than the 3.2, and the increased heat from the turbo (anyone have IAT logs?) and increased cylinder pressures are causing the rings to touch and break ring lands even easier than the 3.2s did.
I don't know if that would be the sole cause of the issue outright though. I do think there must be an inherent difference between the J32 and J35 as far as strength is concerned though.
LSthatch ran tons of passes (granted on 110 octane) @ 700+whp and 20psi from an S372 without issue on a J32A2 motor. Yes, he had one drop a valve, and he overboosted one, but those do not qualify as 'blowing the motor' to me.
I know there are differences in an all out 1/4 mile pass vs. street driving, but if the motor can handle the stress of that much power and torque repeatedly, then it should be able to handle 8 or 10psi from these setups. Also, if we assume that detonation/tuning is not an issue in these instances since maddog had meth, and Utahs' logs were clean, there has to be another cause.
Utah - did you get the rest of the motor apart yet? Any damage to the tops of the pistons, or any other clues? I'm not apt to simply dismiss it as 'weak piston' yet.
maddog - you said it cracked a piston on the dyno with meth? Did a ring land crack, or was it elsewhere? Got any pics of the pistons?
My plan originally was to use an Odyssey 3.5 long block (added displacement and 10:1 CR), but if there is something weaker about these pistons, I may stay with the TL 3.2. Longblocks are cheap enough that's for sure.
As much as I hate to admit that Matt (I hate cars) was probably right the whole time, my initial suspicion now is that the ring end gap is REALLY tight on these, maybe tighter on the 3.5 than the 3.2, and the increased heat from the turbo (anyone have IAT logs?) and increased cylinder pressures are causing the rings to touch and break ring lands even easier than the 3.2s did.
#336
Advanced
That might not be a bad thought. The J32 has a high rod/stroke ratio - 1.8:1. I forget what it is on the J35, but I think it's in the 1.6x:1, and I'm too lazy to go look up the rod length right now.
I don't know if that would be the sole cause of the issue outright though. I do think there must be an inherent difference between the J32 and J35 as far as strength is concerned though.
I don't know if that would be the sole cause of the issue outright though. I do think there must be an inherent difference between the J32 and J35 as far as strength is concerned though.
LSthatch ran tons of passes (granted on 110 octane) @ 700+whp and 20psi from an S372 without issue on a J32A2 motor. Yes, he had one drop a valve, and he overboosted one, but those do not qualify as 'blowing the motor' to me.
I know there are differences in an all out 1/4 mile pass vs. street driving, but if the motor can handle the stress of that much power and torque repeatedly, then it should be able to handle 8 or 10psi from these setups. Also, if we assume that detonation/tuning is not an issue in these instances since maddog had meth, and Utahs' logs were clean, there has to be another cause.
I know there are differences in an all out 1/4 mile pass vs. street driving, but if the motor can handle the stress of that much power and torque repeatedly, then it should be able to handle 8 or 10psi from these setups. Also, if we assume that detonation/tuning is not an issue in these instances since maddog had meth, and Utahs' logs were clean, there has to be another cause.
Utah - did you get the rest of the motor apart yet? Any damage to the tops of the pistons, or any other clues? I'm not apt to simply dismiss it as 'weak piston' yet.
maddog - you said it cracked a piston on the dyno with meth? Did a ring land crack, or was it elsewhere? Got any pics of the pistons?
My plan originally was to use an Odyssey 3.5 long block (added displacement and 10:1 CR), but if there is something weaker about these pistons, I may stay with the TL 3.2. Longblocks are cheap enough that's for sure.
As much as I hate to admit that Matt (I hate cars) was probably right the whole time, my initial suspicion now is that the ring end gap is REALLY tight on these, maybe tighter on the 3.5 than the 3.2, and the increased heat from the turbo (anyone have IAT logs?) and increased cylinder pressures are causing the rings to touch and break ring lands even easier than the 3.2s did.
maddog - you said it cracked a piston on the dyno with meth? Did a ring land crack, or was it elsewhere? Got any pics of the pistons?
My plan originally was to use an Odyssey 3.5 long block (added displacement and 10:1 CR), but if there is something weaker about these pistons, I may stay with the TL 3.2. Longblocks are cheap enough that's for sure.
As much as I hate to admit that Matt (I hate cars) was probably right the whole time, my initial suspicion now is that the ring end gap is REALLY tight on these, maybe tighter on the 3.5 than the 3.2, and the increased heat from the turbo (anyone have IAT logs?) and increased cylinder pressures are causing the rings to touch and break ring lands even easier than the 3.2s did.
IAT hasn't been a concern -- on the boost level the car was at we'd see at most a 10-15* IAT increase after spending time in boost.
#339
Racer
#340
3.5 psi
iTrader: (1)
That might not be a bad thought. The J32 has a high rod/stroke ratio - 1.8:1. I forget what it is on the J35, but I think it's in the 1.6x:1, and I'm too lazy to go look up the rod length right now.
I don't know if that would be the sole cause of the issue outright though. I do think there must be an inherent difference between the J32 and J35 as far as strength is concerned though.
LSthatch ran tons of passes (granted on 110 octane) @ 700+whp and 20psi from an S372 without issue on a J32A2 motor. Yes, he had one drop a valve, and he overboosted one, but those do not qualify as 'blowing the motor' to me.
I don't know if that would be the sole cause of the issue outright though. I do think there must be an inherent difference between the J32 and J35 as far as strength is concerned though.
LSthatch ran tons of passes (granted on 110 octane) @ 700+whp and 20psi from an S372 without issue on a J32A2 motor. Yes, he had one drop a valve, and he overboosted one, but those do not qualify as 'blowing the motor' to me.
#341
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
Also, I believe there are a couple/few other turbo TLs and some AV6s that just don't post that much on here that have not had issues.
#342
Advanced
The new TSX and Civic heads are the same way, we're doing 400whp+ on pump gas on those and not losing anything along the way, 500whp+ on E85 on stock bottom ends.
#344
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
Well damn, just when shit started getting fun huh?!
Sorry to hear that this happened, really. In this case of low boost, I'm inclined to think that the ring lands broke due to there being no signs of wall damage. But then again, I usually don't see piston fragments in the oil pan unless there is evidence of cylinder wall scoring or piston seizure that occurred. The later generally involves fragmentation due to the rod pulverizing the piston once detached from one another. Some cases of land failure that cause fragmentation can be from extreme chamber heat or preignition.
What type of plugs (part number preferably) were you using?
Did the failure during a datalog recording and if so, any knock counts shown at any point?
I'm interesting in seeing tear down pics if you have them or plan on taking any. If possible, get some clear shots of the wall, piston (all pieces), rod and the chamber too on the cylinder that failed.
Sorry to hear that this happened, really. In this case of low boost, I'm inclined to think that the ring lands broke due to there being no signs of wall damage. But then again, I usually don't see piston fragments in the oil pan unless there is evidence of cylinder wall scoring or piston seizure that occurred. The later generally involves fragmentation due to the rod pulverizing the piston once detached from one another. Some cases of land failure that cause fragmentation can be from extreme chamber heat or preignition.
What type of plugs (part number preferably) were you using?
Did the failure during a datalog recording and if so, any knock counts shown at any point?
I'm interesting in seeing tear down pics if you have them or plan on taking any. If possible, get some clear shots of the wall, piston (all pieces), rod and the chamber too on the cylinder that failed.
#345
Burning Brakes
Interested in the pictures of the aftermath. I too think ring gap is a critical factor , LS motors can handle big power for a while with just a ring gap change. I was wondering about the stroke because of the piston skirt pieces that appeared in both turbo builds, it's puzzling.
#346
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
But I digress. That makes me feel better that the single exhaust head is NOT a contributor to failure, just wish we had a better idea of what exactly is the main cause. I'm just not sold on it being that the pistons are too weak.
#347
Got home last night and tear down has begun (he won't let me help because I will just take over he says)
#348
Wow, I've been out of the loop on K series stuff too long. Makes me almost wish I had a 4 cylinder. The cast turbo manifolds that those cars use are pretty cool and seems incredibly easy to make.
But I digress. That makes me feel better that the single exhaust head is NOT a contributor to failure, just wish we had a better idea of what exactly is the main cause. I'm just not sold on it being that the pistons are too weak.
But I digress. That makes me feel better that the single exhaust head is NOT a contributor to failure, just wish we had a better idea of what exactly is the main cause. I'm just not sold on it being that the pistons are too weak.
#349
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
Was searching my notes for some specs on engine I am building for someone and came across these measurements I took a while back between several pistons. Though it gives critical area thicknesses, it really says nothing about material quality, design, etc. Surprisingly the j35y pistons (IMO) were some of the stoutest I've seen from Honda yet though it's one of the "thinnest" shown below. The ring lands were one of its strongest points by far because of how far down they were from the top which makes things easier for the rings themselves in regards to detonation/heat. Also, the crown thickness they had would give me less worries if installed in a boosted engine.
PGE (j32a2)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 3.20mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 3.20mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.00mm
Crown to upper ring land 5.20mm
Crown to middle ring land 10.20mm
RGL (j35a6)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 3.20mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 3.00mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.20mm
Crown to upper ring land 5.20mm
Crown to middle ring land 10.20mm
RKG (j37a4)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 4.95mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 2.20mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.10mm
Crown to upper ring land 5.20mm
Crown to middle ring land 10.20mm
RJA (j35a8)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 4.01mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 2.05mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 6.00mm
Crown to upper ring land 5.20mm
Crown to middle ring land 10.20mm
R9P (j35y)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 2.87mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 1.85mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.41mm
Crown to upper ring land 6.00mm
Crown to middle ring land 11.50mm
Wiseco PN-6568M89
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 3.01mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 3.01mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.38mm
Crown to upper ring land 7.00mm
Crown to middle ring land 12.40mm
PGE (j32a2)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 3.20mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 3.20mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.00mm
Crown to upper ring land 5.20mm
Crown to middle ring land 10.20mm
RGL (j35a6)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 3.20mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 3.00mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.20mm
Crown to upper ring land 5.20mm
Crown to middle ring land 10.20mm
RKG (j37a4)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 4.95mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 2.20mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.10mm
Crown to upper ring land 5.20mm
Crown to middle ring land 10.20mm
RJA (j35a8)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 4.01mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 2.05mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 6.00mm
Crown to upper ring land 5.20mm
Crown to middle ring land 10.20mm
R9P (j35y)
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 2.87mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 1.85mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.41mm
Crown to upper ring land 6.00mm
Crown to middle ring land 11.50mm
Wiseco PN-6568M89
Skirt thickness (thrust side) 3.01mm
Skirt thickness (non-thrust) 3.01mm
Piston pin bore thickness (lower) 5.38mm
Crown to upper ring land 7.00mm
Crown to middle ring land 12.40mm
#350
My sons first broken piston next to one of my favorites so special I wan't to cry
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UTAH TSX (02-13-2015)
#353
Yeah mine on the left, we found three pistons with the skirts broken no broken ring lands on any pistons and no signs of detonation and it was on the non thrust side (inside of pistons )
#355
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
Was the car purchased new? If not, I wonder if the prior owner had a habit of driving on a cold engine, maybe causing cracks in the skirt?
Or, could it just be a compounding of tolerances leading to too large of a bore for those pistons? (I think that is unlikely though.)
Good to see no signs of detonation or any broken ring lands. Still stucks that it happened though.
Are you guys going full pistons and rods or just pistons?
Or, could it just be a compounding of tolerances leading to too large of a bore for those pistons? (I think that is unlikely though.)
Good to see no signs of detonation or any broken ring lands. Still stucks that it happened though.
Are you guys going full pistons and rods or just pistons?
#356
The block has a couple dings underneath. But the cylinder walls are flawless. Not a scratch, which is kinda wierd. Vit said that the clearance from the cylinder wall to the piston might be a little loose. Were gonna measure them in a day or two
#357
Was the car purchased new? If not, I wonder if the prior owner had a habit of driving on a cold engine, maybe causing cracks in the skirt?
Or, could it just be a compounding of tolerances leading to too large of a bore for those pistons? (I think that is unlikely though.)
Good to see no signs of detonation or any broken ring lands. Still stucks that it happened though.
Are you guys going full pistons and rods or just pistons?
Or, could it just be a compounding of tolerances leading to too large of a bore for those pistons? (I think that is unlikely though.)
Good to see no signs of detonation or any broken ring lands. Still stucks that it happened though.
Are you guys going full pistons and rods or just pistons?
Were going to measure the diameter of the piston and the cylinder wall to see what the clearance was.
Yeah our tuner knew what he was doing so no signs of detonation. On top our pistons were in good shape.
Got 4 new pistons from JandE and 2 more on the way. Ill be ordering Pauter rods pretty soon. Just waiting on my tax returns.
Maybe valves further down the road.
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6spd-GERCO (02-13-2015)
#358
Well damn, just when shit started getting fun huh?!
Sorry to hear that this happened, really. In this case of low boost, I'm inclined to think that the ring lands broke due to there being no signs of wall damage. But then again, I usually don't see piston fragments in the oil pan unless there is evidence of cylinder wall scoring or piston seizure that occurred. The later generally involves fragmentation due to the rod pulverizing the piston once detached from one another. Some cases of land failure that cause fragmentation can be from extreme chamber heat or preignition.
What type of plugs (part number preferably) were you using?
Did the failure during a datalog recording and if so, any knock counts shown at any point?
I'm interesting in seeing tear down pics if you have them or plan on taking any. If possible, get some clear shots of the wall, piston (all pieces), rod and the chamber too on the cylinder that failed.
Sorry to hear that this happened, really. In this case of low boost, I'm inclined to think that the ring lands broke due to there being no signs of wall damage. But then again, I usually don't see piston fragments in the oil pan unless there is evidence of cylinder wall scoring or piston seizure that occurred. The later generally involves fragmentation due to the rod pulverizing the piston once detached from one another. Some cases of land failure that cause fragmentation can be from extreme chamber heat or preignition.
What type of plugs (part number preferably) were you using?
Did the failure during a datalog recording and if so, any knock counts shown at any point?
I'm interesting in seeing tear down pics if you have them or plan on taking any. If possible, get some clear shots of the wall, piston (all pieces), rod and the chamber too on the cylinder that failed.
i had ngk 2 step colder spark plugs i think part is NGK (5464) BKR5EIX but dont quote me on it. still looking for the receipt. lol
#359
Burning Brakes
The piston on the left (OEM) looks cast to me but I guess people says it's forged?? With the shorter connecting rod length and longer stroke of the J35, it makes sense that you would see higher side loads on the piston and then adding a notch at the bottom of the skirt for what ever reason, doesn't help.
Stroke:
J32: 86mm
J35: 93mm
Connecting Rod Length
J32:161.8mm
J32:158.5mm
^ just pulled these off the interwebz, correct me if they are wrong.
Stroke:
J32: 86mm
J35: 93mm
Connecting Rod Length
J32:161.8mm
J32:158.5mm
^ just pulled these off the interwebz, correct me if they are wrong.
#360
Safety Car
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: San Jose, CA/ Charleston, WV
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459 Posts
I would recommend putting in supertech valves springs just for extra safety measure since you already have the engine apart. That way you don't have a O shit moment of dropping a valve on to your new pistons.