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Dayum, why so low? You must be pretty scared of something with this car. I realize you've went through a few sets of pistons now but I'm not too sure going to that level is the answer to your issue...whatever it may be. FYI, I literally hit pump gas limit at a tad bit over 10lbs but WMI helped keep me at 11.5lbs for a while. Then e85 has got me up to 18. This is still using my stock 11.2:1 CR and bottom end. Just saying...
what im aiming for is a big swing in the opposite direction as far as compression goes. Then taking extreme measures with detonation prevention. Strange how you only gained a lb and a half from meth. I was limited to 8 or 9 lb before methanol and up to about 12 lb after.
if the new manifold and return fuel system hold up well ill consider uping the compression to about 9.5 with the next motor.
I didn't know/think about the 91 octane fuel that Utah uses and because I've never tuned with it, can't really say much about it. I imagine it would be able to run up to 7-8lbs reliably though had about 7lb without issue but lots of detonation tuning with vit, he didnt pull timing until we sent him an audio clip of the knock but by that time the damage was done and the motor already had its days numbered and the knock, though audible from in the car, did not show up on the datalogs. Which is why vit didnt pull any timing till he heard it. Especially with water injection. The way I look at it, the engine should be tuned for the fuel used. Wether it be q16 race or 87 pump, the tune should keep it reliable regardless. Guess what I'm getting at here really (and in response to Utahs last post made above) is if it's a cylinder distribution issue, shouldn't we be seeing more of this problem throughout the 3g TL's? how many boosted 3g tl's are out there boosted or even j series out there and on top of that how many of them have modified their intake in some way. Also, I would think if there were air and/or fuel distribution problems for cylinders 5 and 6, then I'm certain something would have been seen on your widebands gauges (assuming you have two)nope, just one on the downpipe and the factory ones by the exit or even datalogs in the form of knock, factory widebands readings (in comparison to each other)stock sniffers are useless under boost, once i get richer than about 12-1 my stocks show 10 the rest of the way never played with the compensation features on flashpro, fuel trims, injector pulse widths, etc. I know FlashPro doesn't offer some of these PID's but even a decent quality scanner would give you a better look within to confirm the assumption of distribution issues. Just seems to me that the problem should've been diagnosed long before the 3rd set of pistons went into this motor. And please don't take offense Utah, I'm all for ya man....I really am. I just feel like maybe you should do some more checking into things before going anywhere with this next setup. How are you going to confirm the distribution issues been resolved if you're still just assuming that's the problem? this is not just an assumption its a theory based on the evidence gathered from the breakdown and to confirm that this was in fact an issue frequent inspection and constant monitoring will be done. I may just try to get the stock af sensors to read better under boost even if its not completely accurate it coild still come in handy. Just something to think about before you get there. too late we are already there.Btw z28, I know what the guy who you're referring to with the 1000hp j-series. It's the S2k you're talking about, right?the guy who filled the water jacket with epoxy? That car simply amazes me as it proves that the strength of the j-series is even way beyond what I proclaim it to be. I've known through friends local to me and myself that these engines can withstand an immense amount of power in stock trim but the big thing is the tune. They have a hairline limit for ignition timing that will make power up to X, but as soon as you reach Y, the engine is gone without warning. Most engines will increase in power with timing, level out and then begin to detonate. But not the j-series. It's so sensitive at high power levels. Hondata mentioned something before that I believe strongly applies to the 2nd gen j-series and that was what they said about tuning the single port exhaust k-series engines and how they did NOT like timing added under boost. Even with e85 and water injection, I'm literally adding (at most) ONLY one degree in timing in both ignition tables but it ranges around 1/2 to 1 degree of advance throughout. Most other engines are known to take 2-4 degrees with e85 (and WMI) to make up for the fuels slower burn rate but it could be the j-series chambers are so well developed that they don't need the advance to make power. Or, maybe something to do with the single port exhaust design of the heads that require less timing. ***Whatever it may be, it's strength comes from its tune though for sure.*** They're hypersensitive motors that can and will deliver when they're happily tuned.
the last thing i plan on doing to extend the longevity of this motor is be more picky about when i drive it. Stay away from rush hour traffic cause cars dont like to idle for a long time and put her away in the winter cause she couldn't really get up to temp in the colder months and im pretty sure it hurt the car
Utah, I would really like the chance of just looking at your calibration and the last datalog you made with part throttle/WOT. I'm just curious to know what makes your motor destroy pistons.
stock sniffers are useless under boost, once i get richer than about 12-1 my stocks show 10 the rest of the way never played with the compensation features on flashpro
Then something is definitely wrong with your setup then. My widebands (all four of them) are pre-turbo and the aftermarkets read roughly .1-.2 AFR leaner than my factory ones do. I hope you don't have the ECM pulling from the stock sensors while this is occurring, do you? If they both do this simultaneously, I would recommend checking the ECMs ground on the thermostat housing for corrosion/loosening. Also, you can easily distinguish wether it's a software or hardware issue by watching the oxygen sensor voltages when they suddenly drop to 10. Observing either bank 1 sensor 1 or bank 2 sensor 1 oxygen sensor voltages, at idle while the ECM commands a stoich AFR of 14.7 they normally read between 1.8-2.3 volts. As the AFR is richened, the voltage drops lower. The oxygen sensors lowest measurable AFR is typically between 9.5-10.1 AFR at which it would show less than 0.1 volts when you see them flop. If the voltages are not showing below 0.1 volts then you have a configuration issue in FlashPro. If they do read lower than 0.1 volts, well then you need to determine if it's the sensors, wiring and/or ECM causing the issue. Again, chances are if they both drop out simultaneously and the voltage is reading below 0.1 volts you could have a bad ECM ground (ground 101 in diagrams). You should REALLY correct this issue before even attempting a first startup IMO.
Originally Posted by UTAH Type-S
this is not just an assumption its a theory based on the evidence gathered from the breakdown and to confirm that this was in fact an issue frequent inspection and constant monitoring will be done. I may just try to get the stock af sensors to read better under boost even if its not completely accurate it coild still come in handy.
Care to elaborate on your findings? If this is actuality, it would be beneficial for myself and others to know exactly what it was that we should look out for. As a side note, constant monitoring and frequent inspections will become the norm...even when there aren't any noticeable issues/concerns. I always check things under the hood and all other subsystems to try and find a weak link before it becomes a broken one. For instance, I found a rubber cap that I used to block off unneeded coolant lines on the thermostat housing to be deteriorated to near leaking last night while checking fluid levels. Found it, replaced it, no more threat. This happens frequently and I've realized doing this is a critical step in keeping the engine alive and the vehicle reliable.
Originally Posted by UTAH Type-S
the last thing i plan on doing to extend the longevity of this motor is be more picky about when i drive it. Stay away from rush hour traffic cause cars dont like to idle for a long time and put her away in the winter cause she couldn't really get up to temp in the colder months and im pretty sure it hurt the car
I agree with the last comment, this car should be driven when desired or needed. Not when and where it's able to. And what do you mean "couldn't really get up to temp in the colder months"? Does it have a low temp thermostat? If so, cardboard or tape can be used to block airflow across the radiator so that the cooing system can maintain temperature easier. It's better to stick cardboard directly in front of the radiator only so that other heat exchangers aren't affected such as the intercooler.
Yes it has a 155° thermostat and in the winter i would struggle to get above that in the morning and at night which i drove both times very often between work and school and cardboard didnt help at all. Just got dirty and not much more.The biggest evidence of the distribution issue was in the intake runners where 5 was pretty dirty. 6 a little less so but still had build up and the rest of them had mild build up on one side and was perfectly clean on the other from the methanol going across it now that i know that my new intake manifold works ima open up the stock one to peek inside and see if i have the same clean lines.also the timing marks on the plugs showed that 5 and 6 wanted a little less timing and while the old motor was fresh those plugs were a little dirtier. Obviously with the cracked pistons those plugs were oily as hell but the type of piston failure i was told is most commonly caused by pre ignition witch can be caused by too much, or too little fuel, and too little timing.
I still think it was detonation that killed the pistons not preignition, preignition usually explodes a motor with big holes in the pistons detonation slowly beats the pistons to death braking ring lands and cracking chunks out of the piston top until it eventually makes a hole and then the blow torch affect happens melting away the piston hole like a torch was used on it.
I think most of the damage was caused when tuning with a Etuner when the engine was first built (not Dom) and the timing was way to aggressive.
We will be doing our own tuning from now on with a little help from Dom the full throttle and part throttle stuff is easy but over run and other things we are not that familiar with we could use some help with (the small poping backfire on deceleration) Yungone was that you that was playing with the overrun to make an anti lag affect ? (we don't want that)
Yes it has a 155° thermostat and in the winter i would struggle to get above that in the morning and at night which i drove both times very often between work and school and cardboard didnt help at all. Just got dirty and not much more.The biggest evidence of the distribution issue was in the intake runners where 5 was pretty dirty. 6 a little less so but still had build up and the rest of them had mild build up on one side and was perfectly clean on the other from the methanol going across it now that i know that my new intake manifold works ima open up the stock one to peek inside and see if i have the same clean lines.also the timing marks on the plugs showed that 5 and 6 wanted a little less timing and while the old motor was fresh those plugs were a little dirtier. Obviously with the cracked pistons those plugs were oily as hell but the type of piston failure i was told is most commonly caused by pre ignition witch can be caused by too much, or too little fuel, and too little timing.
If I block airflow across the radiator and use my heater sparingly, I can easily get up in the mid to high 170's. I juggled the idea of a dual thermostat setup that could be controlled by a manual ball valve. One side would have the oem stat and the low temp stat on the other side. As it is a pain in the ass to swap thermostats out when you have all the BS in the way like we do. But that was before I learned how to manage it with strategy I described above.
As for the runner wash you're seeing on the two back cylinders, I would look into this a little more before making such drastic moves. Maybe your atomization (droplet size) isn't what it should be from the WMI nozzle, nozzle is too large for the power/displacement, or nozzle placement is too close to the throttle body which doesn't allow time for vaporization to occur? Do you have any photos of the wash traces you're seeing? Also, your activation time or even duty settings could be way off as well. If the duty is turned up too far at too low of a boost setting, the excess water/meth can separate from the air as its momentum could be greater than the flow demand of the cylinders themselves?
Originally Posted by UTAH TSX
I still think it was detonation that killed the pistons not preignition, preignition usually explodes a motor with big holes in the pistons detonation slowly beats the pistons to death braking ring lands and cracking chunks out of the piston top until it eventually makes a hole and then the blow torch affect happens melting away the piston hole like a torch was used on it.
I think most of the damage was caused when tuning with a Etuner when the engine was first built (not Dom) and the timing was way to aggressive.
We will be doing our own tuning from now on with a little help from Dom the full throttle and part throttle stuff is easy but over run and other things we are not that familiar with we could use some help with (the small poping backfire on deceleration) Yungone was that you that was playing with the overrun to make an anti lag affect ? (we don't want that)
I'm in agreement here. Preignition would be almost an instant failure at power levels that this engine is running. Question, were the knock sensitivity settings ever changed or modified? Seems like these settings could have been overlooked in regards to their accuracy which could have then "allowed" the detonation to occur. I have my settings to their max so that I know when something is going wrong the instant it begins. Though my knock retard is completely removed, it's more of an alert rather than a response.
And as for the overrun, yeah, mine is a little extreme. Lol. But its easily changed to a more mild effect by simply reducing the amount of timing retard. It also requires modifying the overrun MAP high/low, off/on settings, the injector restart settings in conjunction with the timing and fuel mapping under the vacuum columns. Let me know when you guys get there and I can create some cool stuff for you.
Robert can you elaborate when you say your knock sensitivity settings are set to the max, but your knock retard is removed. Personally, with the Flashpro and J series, I think the SAFEST method is to zero out the knock tables so there is no chance of letting the ecu attempt to manage it, which I know disagrees with some popular tuners, and maybe even Hondata. I still don't think Hondata has full control over the knock algorithm and how fast it removes or adds timing. Any kind of large transition, be it increase or decrease is bad for a motor. I think you are in good company with E85, and I'm curious, have you been able to do induce detonation at all while running it? Without E85, I think an option like the J&S safeguard is cheap insurance, especially for a built motor. I'm gonna run stock components until I blow one up, then a junk yard motor and then build one (rods only). I have a hard time believing there is an inherent weakness in the J32A3 vs A2 motors.
Robert can you elaborate when you say your knock sensitivity settings are set to the max, but your knock retard is removed. Personally, with the Flashpro and J series, I think the SAFEST method is to zero out the knock tables so there is no chance of letting the ecu attempt to manage it, which I know disagrees with some popular tuners, and maybe even Hondata. I still don't think Hondata has full control over the knock algorithm and how fast it removes or adds timing. Any kind of large transition, be it increase or decrease is bad for a motor. I think you are in good company with E85, and I'm curious, have you been able to do induce detonation at all while running it? Without E85, I think an option like the J&S safeguard is cheap insurance, especially for a built motor. I'm gonna run stock components until I blow one up, then a junk yard motor and then build one (rods only). I have a hard time believing there is an inherent weakness in the J32A3 vs A2 motors.
It's basically what you went on to describe, which is taking all the knock retard out in ALL areas of the table both high and low. The same was done for the knock limit, also, high and low. I even went a little further with my calibration and modified the air and water temperature compensation tables (which also retard ignition under certain conditions) to better suit my specific setup on the car. Things such as the lower temps in coolant from the low temp stat, the WMI setup lowering IAT's as well as the greater latent heat of vaporization effect that occurs with e85. These small tables have to watched carefully because they interpolate from one cell to the next and this means it can/will retard ignition even when you haven't entered into the lowest range of the table. Hondata claims that these tables work directly off of the knock retard tables but I have found this to be completely inaccurate. That may hold true with whatever engine Hondata help file was originally written from but people need to be weary as the information on there is no way universally applicable to all Honda ECMs as it may appear.
As for the sensitivity settings, it was essentially a process mainly done while running 93 pump gas but I increased sensitivity in all areas of the tables little by little till they all began to show knock counts then brought them all back down a bit...sort of like when you tune ignition timing in a sense. In doing so, I found that roughly 40-50% of the knock sensitivity tables (mine at least) were way off. My primary reason for doing this was because I got very irritated with how the stock ECM knock settings were affecting stupid areas of my tune when completely not needed. Out of nowhere, due to a knock count that occurred long before, it would begin to pull timing across areas that had never once seen knock according to my datalogs. Sometimes, the knock counts it worked off of occurred several days before! But as you brought up, since running e85, I haven't seen one hint of knock in boost at any engine speed. I have, however, seen them down low when I had plugs that were both too hot and also not set at the proper gap (they were too wide). But after dropping one range in heat and taking gaps down to .024", those knock counts vanished. Either way, the stock ECM knock control system is complete BS in nearly every way except being able to accurately monitor knock when it occurs BUT only if it's been properly tuned to the engine. Anyone that's relying on the knock control to accurately count using stock settings on a forced induction engine will not have a reliable tool to tune with.
Prior to me running the e85 and WMI, I would have argued the comment you made on j32a3 (and similar j35a8) engines being weaker than the multi exhaust port head engines such as that of the j32a2. But since I've been running at 18lbs (roughly 570whp based of calculations from my 11lb 450whp dyno?), I am beginning to realize how wrong I might have been in doing so. All my information I've ever collected on the failure of these engines was done from friends and people on forums that have damaged them when running stupid amounts of boost without proper fueling and/or tuning. Now that I'm doing both, I can see that they are most assuredly flawed in design (compared to j32a2), but they are also pretty damn tough engines. I have literally tortured this motor with thousands of boosted miles that consist of more WOT runs than any other j-series motor I've ever owned and the funny part is that this one is completely bone stock. Btw, I will be raising the bar soon to hopefully 20lbs+ soon once my block is received back from the machine shop from being cleaned after hand prepping it for a upcoming build.
If I block airflow across the radiator and use my heater sparingly, I can easily get up in the mid to high 170's. I juggled the idea of a dual thermostat setup that could be controlled by a manual ball valve. One side would have the oem stat and the low temp stat on the other side. As it is a pain in the ass to swap thermostats out when you have all the BS in the way like we do. But that was before I learned how to manage it with strategy I described above.
As for the runner wash you're seeing on the two back cylinders, I would look into this a little more before making such drastic moves. Maybe your atomization (droplet size) isn't what it should be from the WMI nozzle, nozzle is too large for the power/displacement, or nozzle placement is too close to the throttle body which doesn't allow time for vaporization to occur? Do you have any photos of the wash traces you're seeing? Also, your activation time or even duty settings could be way off as well. If the duty is turned up too far at too low of a boost setting, the excess water/meth can separate from the air as its momentum could be greater than the flow demand of the cylinders themselves?
I'm in agreement here. Preignition would be almost an instant failure at power levels that this engine is running. Question, were the knock sensitivity settings ever changed or modified? Seems like these settings could have been overlooked in regards to their accuracy which could have then "allowed" the detonation to occur. I have my settings to their max so that I know when something is going wrong the instant it begins. Though my knock retard is completely removed, it's more of an alert rather than a response.
And as for the overrun, yeah, mine is a little extreme. Lol. But its easily changed to a more mild effect by simply reducing the amount of timing retard. It also requires modifying the overrun MAP high/low, off/on settings, the injector restart settings in conjunction with the timing and fuel mapping under the vacuum columns. Let me know when you guys get there and I can create some cool stuff for you.
Knock sensitivity has been adjusted to pick up knock at the back half of the motors life.
I thought about 2 themostats as well bur in series in stead of one or the other but decided against it because i didnt know how the two would interact. But maybe a restricter to limit flow before it hits the radiator?
Ill have to go looking for my second set of runners to see if they still have the clean lines in them. And ill post pics of the intake manifold once its apart.
no knock on this motor yet.
Got my fuel stable up to about 5500 rpm and haven't messed with ignition yet tuning got put on hold cause i hit some road debris and cracked a wheel. But ill have a new one in next week and ill be able to continue with business as usual. Before i get back up and running ima trim my intake pipe a little so its not hitting the frame ill post before and after pics for youngone.... if i set all my overrun maps to stock could that eliminate the backfire?
Got my fuel stable up to about 5500 rpm and haven't messed with ignition yet tuning got put on hold cause i hit some road debris and cracked a wheel. But ill have a new one in next week and ill be able to continue with business as usual. Before i get back up and running ima trim my intake pipe a little so its not hitting the frame ill post before and after pics for youngone.... if i set all my overrun maps to stock could that eliminate the backfire?
If the overrun tables have been modified, then yeah restoring all values to factory should resolve the issues. As I was saying, if the overrun just suddenly appeared without editing the tables being edited then obviously you will need to customize the values using the technique I explained above.
I read through the whole thread...
what a ride.
The fact that this was a father-son, both az members thread made it a must read cool fucking story to me.
You both write very well and I enjoyed going on the adventure with you. Looking forward to this rollercoaster ride.
I think Utah's started with this plate. But it may have given P2R the idea to produce...
We looked at that but it was $500 so we purchased a $25 1/4 in aluminium plate and made the velocity stacks from $20 in wheel bearing races and about 15 hours of cutting drilling boring porting honing welding and bloody fingers the top was $200 so all in at $250 and it works like a charm we no longer have one or two cylinders detonating even with the timing trimmed 4 Degrees on the those cylinders we now have no cylinder trim at all just nice even flow to all cylinders it was well worth it
The Holley EFI manifold conversion idea was originally brainstormed and created by the member here Knox. Only because I was there while it just a churning idea do I feel it's necessary to give credit where credit is due. He actually would've been the first to debut the manifold on a j-series if his machinist (and mine as well) would've kept the project confidential like he was asked to do but ended up posting the adapter plate for sale on his Facebook page for obvious reasons.
Either way, it's an excellent idea though I'm not sure how well it performs. Anyone know the plenum volume of it? Also, if I'm not mistaken, there's a spacer for this manifold but I could be wrong.
The plenum size is about the same size as my stock intake manifold. We measured by filling up the Holly intake and the stock intake with water and measuring how much it took to fill them with water. The Holly intake was barely bigger than the stock. I haven't had any issues with it other than the extra time it takes to remove and instal this one compared to the old one. Haven't taken it out too much recently due to the weather. But while its just sitting in the garage, I'm working on a couple little things. i made a new bracket to mount my fuel pressure regulator a little lower. And I'm working on a front engine cover to pretty the bay up a bit
I still need to make a mounting bracket notch out more room for the breather, and cut out spots for the dip stick and oil filter before the final polish.
so far so good. started tuning methanol again. got it up to 16 lb. runs rich as hell up there so i gotta take it slow and dial in the fuel before i spend too much time at that level. got the car lowered and now im looking into a good wheel and tire setup. timing is still pretty conservative.
update.
17 lb without issue. fueling is looking good. just some fine tuning to do.
I think im beginning to hit the flow limit of my exhaust. I will be opening up the back end soon with a dual 2.5" into straight through mufflers I will try to maintain a stock look but better flowing than the stock muffler setup I have. but first Im in serious need of traction. I just consulted the beefy tire thread and hope to see a response soon. im thinking of getting these KMC Km703 18x9.5 5x114.3 45mm Black Machined Wheel Rim eBay
18x9.5" +45 offset. if anybody knows if they will clear the brembos let me know
or these that look like my waffles but wider. KMC Km703 18x9.5 5x114.3 45mm Black Machined Wheel Rim eBay
as far as tires goes im thinking about a 275/30/18 but havent looked into brands yet
i was going to do a tucked wire harness, but got lazy and made a cover to hide the wires instead lol still need to make a cover for the back head but this will do for now ill post pics of the mounting bracket i made for it tomorrow if i remember.
Well new update i cracked a sleeve and dont know how. About 17 lb at 7500 rpm is where it happened. The rotating assembly is still good just waiting on a new block.
Aw snap! A sleeve cracked and that was it? I know you're running forged pistons and all but it seems crazy to hear that nothing else suffered damage when that happened. I'd be extra careful when dismantling the engine and carefully inspect the rod and piston from that cylinder and make sure nothing is funny such as a bent rod, pin or pin bore damage, ringland damage, etc.
I myself finally just got my new engine back in (today actually) and its time to have some fun this summer. It will be ran on e85 and water injection again as this is where the safest high power numbers are met. I'll keep the meth out of the equation this time around since it does nothing for power at all. Later on, I will be removing the intercooler since the alcohol in the e85 pretty much does the trick. I'm very excited, it's been a long while since I've had this beast on the road!
I agree. If you're cash strapped and can't spend a lot on injectors, RDX are cheap alternatives. But if you have any aspirations of going into the 400's, might as well just get the ID1000's.
