Thinking about swapping my 3.7IM/TB back to stock 3.5
01-25-2014, 08:37 AM
#1
Thinking about swapping my 3.7IM/TB back to stock 3.5
I've spent months now driving my car with the 3.7 setup and I definitely love the additional power over the 3.5, I'm just not sure that I can deal with the sloppy shifting feel anymore due to the incessant rev hanging and the other slew of problems that come along with it. I thought my TB calibration had helped this out, which I still think it did in the warmer weather, but it seems that the colder weather has accentuated the issue and the car is just not very fun at all to drive in the winter. I remember being able to gracefully run through the gears as I entered on the highway without having to purposely shift slowly due to the rev hanging and it was just like a silver bullet. Now everything feels and sounds sloppy. I know that I will take a 10-15whp loss but I will regain a cleaner and truer shifting feel.
The other thing is that I have a 15lb lightweight aluminum flywheel. This would cause less rev hang and the car would return to idle even quicker than stock flywheel, wouldn't it? The laws of inertia tell me that I am correct, but I really don't know. Let me express how my car sounds via a picture and what other people hear:
Does anyone else experience this?
The other thing is that I have a 15lb lightweight aluminum flywheel. This would cause less rev hang and the car would return to idle even quicker than stock flywheel, wouldn't it? The laws of inertia tell me that I am correct, but I really don't know. Let me express how my car sounds via a picture and what other people hear:
Does anyone else experience this?
01-25-2014, 03:00 PM
#2
It sounds like the throttle plate is not closing when letting of the gas and disengaging the clutch. This ultimately could be fixed with Hondata I think. The RPMs will drop quicker with the lighter flywheel but if the throttle is open drawing more air then fuel will continue to be added. Without any load on the engine, and less inertia from the flywheel the rpms will start to rise. Without any data logs its hard to tell exactly what is going on with the car to help correct it but that is basically what is happening.
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JJH (01-25-2014)
01-25-2014, 03:10 PM
#3
It sounds like the throttle plate is not closing when letting of the gas and disengaging the clutch. This ultimately could be fixed with Hondata I think. The RPMs will drop quicker with the lighter flywheel but if the throttle is open drawing more air then fuel will continue to be added. Without any load on the engine, and less inertia from the flywheel the rpms will start to rise. Without any data logs its hard to tell exactly what is going on with the car to help correct it but that is basically what is happening.
01-25-2014, 03:23 PM
#4
This is pertinent to what you are talking about:
F my life.
Spent several hours at King today, 1 hour on the phone with Matt over at Hondata.
As I noted earlier - going back to the 3.5 TB definitely fixed the tip-in issues I was having. The only real remaining problem was that when letting off the gas at certain RPM's from cruising speed - let's say 2500-3k rpm in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear, you would still get some abnormal jerking, over and above what you should expect from a manual trans car, which will inherently always have some of that.
After some data log inspection, it became very obvious where the issue lies - there is, on average, a 5% difference between the TPedal and TPlate levels. They should be in line with one another in a normal application, but the difference we're seeing is upwards of 8 or 9%. When the gas pedal is completely let off at 0%, the throttle plate is still reading 4-5%.
Upon closer inspection by Hondata, what Matt was seeing was that the plate would close just as it should when the gas pedal is released, however, it would then open back up. It's important to note that we had not adjusted any of the fuel injector overrun cutoff settings in Flashpro, now or in the past. It's all at stock settings. In fact tweaking that just makes things worse, lol.
We are waiting on Doug to take a look at the logs and respond in the next day or two.
Hopefully more info still to come.
Spent several hours at King today, 1 hour on the phone with Matt over at Hondata.
As I noted earlier - going back to the 3.5 TB definitely fixed the tip-in issues I was having. The only real remaining problem was that when letting off the gas at certain RPM's from cruising speed - let's say 2500-3k rpm in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear, you would still get some abnormal jerking, over and above what you should expect from a manual trans car, which will inherently always have some of that.
After some data log inspection, it became very obvious where the issue lies - there is, on average, a 5% difference between the TPedal and TPlate levels. They should be in line with one another in a normal application, but the difference we're seeing is upwards of 8 or 9%. When the gas pedal is completely let off at 0%, the throttle plate is still reading 4-5%.
Upon closer inspection by Hondata, what Matt was seeing was that the plate would close just as it should when the gas pedal is released, however, it would then open back up. It's important to note that we had not adjusted any of the fuel injector overrun cutoff settings in Flashpro, now or in the past. It's all at stock settings. In fact tweaking that just makes things worse, lol.
We are waiting on Doug to take a look at the logs and respond in the next day or two.
Hopefully more info still to come.
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dandaman15 (01-25-2014)
01-25-2014, 04:17 PM
#5
I'm thinking maybe adjusting the throttle cable may help, but don't know or have any reference values as to where the idle stop should be at on it.
If you check the service manual on page 511 (for 04-06) there is a throttle cable adjustment at the APP sensor. This is for the stock throttle body though.
Perhaps adjusting the idle stop on the cable so the car will close the throttle plate more when the accelerator is let off? There's really no reference for completing this though.
Have to keep in mind with this swap the electronics are setup differently between the two cars. On the ZDX or 4G TL, depending on which throttle body you chose, the APP sensor is integrated into the accelerator pedal. However, on our 3Gs the APP sensor is located in the engine bay and we have a cable running to it from our accelerator pedal.
I haven't installed mine yet, so I don't know where I'll end up being at. I'm still waiting to take it in to have the bottom resurfaced after having it powder coated. I need to pick up a straight edge and check it, but I'm pretty sure it's off some of the bolts in mine manifold were loose after I got it back.
The other idea that I had is maybe using some DC 321 dry film lubricant to seal up the gap in the throttle body a little bit so it has less airflow at idle.
I read about people that bored out their throttle bodies (on other cars) had this problem, where all the dry film lubricant was removed and then more air was getting by the throttle plate and caused a problem exactly the same as we're having at idle. That was on cars with cabled throttle bodies.
The DC 321 is a seal/lubricant for those plates, if you look on your butterflies in the top plate or on the back of the throttle plate there should be some on there. It seals up the gaps and also lubricates.
These are just ideas though, and haven't tried anything out.
I guess a better idea would to see who has the problem and how their setup is.
I know some reported not having any issues. I think the following would be useful information:
1 - Engine (J32A3 or J35A8)
2 - Throttle Body (ZDX or SHAWD-TL)
3 - MAP Sensor (J32A3, J35A8, ZDX or SHAWD-TL)
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS?
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate (J35A8 or SHAWD-TL)
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking?
If you check the service manual on page 511 (for 04-06) there is a throttle cable adjustment at the APP sensor. This is for the stock throttle body though.
Perhaps adjusting the idle stop on the cable so the car will close the throttle plate more when the accelerator is let off? There's really no reference for completing this though.
Have to keep in mind with this swap the electronics are setup differently between the two cars. On the ZDX or 4G TL, depending on which throttle body you chose, the APP sensor is integrated into the accelerator pedal. However, on our 3Gs the APP sensor is located in the engine bay and we have a cable running to it from our accelerator pedal.
I haven't installed mine yet, so I don't know where I'll end up being at. I'm still waiting to take it in to have the bottom resurfaced after having it powder coated. I need to pick up a straight edge and check it, but I'm pretty sure it's off some of the bolts in mine manifold were loose after I got it back.
The other idea that I had is maybe using some DC 321 dry film lubricant to seal up the gap in the throttle body a little bit so it has less airflow at idle.
I read about people that bored out their throttle bodies (on other cars) had this problem, where all the dry film lubricant was removed and then more air was getting by the throttle plate and caused a problem exactly the same as we're having at idle. That was on cars with cabled throttle bodies.
The DC 321 is a seal/lubricant for those plates, if you look on your butterflies in the top plate or on the back of the throttle plate there should be some on there. It seals up the gaps and also lubricates.
These are just ideas though, and haven't tried anything out.
I guess a better idea would to see who has the problem and how their setup is.
I know some reported not having any issues. I think the following would be useful information:
1 - Engine (J32A3 or J35A8)
2 - Throttle Body (ZDX or SHAWD-TL)
3 - MAP Sensor (J32A3, J35A8, ZDX or SHAWD-TL)
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS?
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate (J35A8 or SHAWD-TL)
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking?
01-25-2014, 04:29 PM
#6
1 - Engine (J32A3 or J35A8)
2 - Throttle Body (ZDX or SHAWD-TL)
3 - MAP Sensor (J32A3, J35A8, ZDX or SHAWD-TL)
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS?
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate (J35A8 or SHAWD-TL)
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking?
2 - Throttle Body (ZDX or SHAWD-TL)
3 - MAP Sensor (J32A3, J35A8, ZDX or SHAWD-TL)
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS?
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate (J35A8 or SHAWD-TL)
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking?
1 - J35A8
2 - ZDX
3 - J35A8 & ZDX. I've had the issue with either, no change.
4 - Yes, placebo effect.
5 - J35A8, not sure this would have any effect on anything
6 - Bucking is sporadic. Happens every once in awhile, not consistent though.
01-25-2014, 08:41 PM
#7
Team Owner
Having a larger throttlebody means more air at lower throttle openings. Let's assume neither the 3.5L or the 3.7L throttle bodies are a restriction to the engine. Even so, the larger throttlebody will make considerably more power at lower throttle because it's the same thing as opening the smaller throttlebody more. At some point they become equal. Maybe the smaller throttlebody has to be 100% open to make full power and the larger on hits full power at 80% open and levels off to 100% opening. The ECU is not calibrated for the additional throttle opening at lower throttle. Everything it does with the throttle is amplified.
Many people say the TL intentionally rev hangs when shifting gears. The ECU is designed to give a certain percent throttle to make this happen. You put a bigger throttlebody that flows a lot more air at part throttle and what used to make the rpm hang at the right rpm for the next gear now makes the engine rev too high.
The lighter flywheel makes it happen quicker. Don't get me wrong, max rpm during the rev hang will be the same with a light or a heavy flywheel given enough time but with the light one it accelerates and decelerates quicker. So you have the ECU giving it too much throttle on accident and an engine that revs quicker. It's no wonder it's sloppy.
Or said another way, the ECU is more prone to rpm overshoot due to more throttle for a given opening and an engine that will rev quicker. I'm surprised it idles right.
Or said another another way, manifold vacuum will be lower for a given throttle opening %.
In my turbo car, larger throttle bodies have caused transmissions to burn up. The car is all of a sudden making more boost and power at less throttle % (but more actual throttle) and the transmission does not have enough line pressure at that throttle opening to hold the power it's making. This is one reason I still run a ported stock throttlebody (58mm) on a 600rwhp car.
The only way to fix it is to calibrate the ECU for a larger throttle body. I don't know how the TL does it but if you can rescale it you might get it "good enough".
Many people say the TL intentionally rev hangs when shifting gears. The ECU is designed to give a certain percent throttle to make this happen. You put a bigger throttlebody that flows a lot more air at part throttle and what used to make the rpm hang at the right rpm for the next gear now makes the engine rev too high.
The lighter flywheel makes it happen quicker. Don't get me wrong, max rpm during the rev hang will be the same with a light or a heavy flywheel given enough time but with the light one it accelerates and decelerates quicker. So you have the ECU giving it too much throttle on accident and an engine that revs quicker. It's no wonder it's sloppy.
Or said another way, the ECU is more prone to rpm overshoot due to more throttle for a given opening and an engine that will rev quicker. I'm surprised it idles right.
Or said another another way, manifold vacuum will be lower for a given throttle opening %.
In my turbo car, larger throttle bodies have caused transmissions to burn up. The car is all of a sudden making more boost and power at less throttle % (but more actual throttle) and the transmission does not have enough line pressure at that throttle opening to hold the power it's making. This is one reason I still run a ported stock throttlebody (58mm) on a 600rwhp car.
The only way to fix it is to calibrate the ECU for a larger throttle body. I don't know how the TL does it but if you can rescale it you might get it "good enough".
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01-25-2014, 08:53 PM
#8
Pretty good explanation, big problem is we're playing with a drive by wire car where everything is controlled by electronics so there's really no way for us to adjust where it's setting the throttle plate at or recalibrate the ECM to run off having greater airflow at it's idle setting or where the accelerator isn't depressed.
If some people really aren't having this problem then finding out what they did differently and reproducing it on another car would solve the problem though.
I suppose we still have gains from the manifold itself, did ILC ever get a dyno to see what he lost by going from the 3.7TB to the 3.5TB using the P2R adapter?
For the driving quality it's probably going to be worth it to stick with the stock TB if this can't be solved and just use the adapter plate from P2R.
Sucks.. I already painted my new throttle body haha, cleaning the old one to paint it is going to suck.
Anyone have the diameters on the 3.5TB? How does it compare to the one off the 3.2? Duno if that's going to create the same problems though haha
If some people really aren't having this problem then finding out what they did differently and reproducing it on another car would solve the problem though.
I suppose we still have gains from the manifold itself, did ILC ever get a dyno to see what he lost by going from the 3.7TB to the 3.5TB using the P2R adapter?
For the driving quality it's probably going to be worth it to stick with the stock TB if this can't be solved and just use the adapter plate from P2R.
Sucks.. I already painted my new throttle body haha, cleaning the old one to paint it is going to suck.
Anyone have the diameters on the 3.5TB? How does it compare to the one off the 3.2? Duno if that's going to create the same problems though haha
01-25-2014, 10:47 PM
#10
I'm just assuming the idle learn procedure was completed, I know you guys have the HDS.
Both have PNP runners as well, right? I also have PNP runners in. Since you're both on the 3.5L that means you're using the 3.5L top-plate, but I think you're right that shouldn't make much difference.
Did swoosh have the bucking problems? I know he's on a 3.2L 5AT, same as me. I think he has the TL-SHAWD TB.
lol.. anil needs to come over and let us know how he's setup and if he has the problem.
I think rubenders has a Type-S as well, duno if he has the problem still or not.
01-25-2014, 10:58 PM
#11
1 - Engine - J32A3
2 - Throttle Body - ZDX
3 - MAP Sensor - ZDX
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS? No
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate - SHAWD-TL
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking? No
I have the 3.7 IM with ZDX TB and PnP Runners on my 04 5AT TL with no issues. I recently added the IM Spacer, similar to the P2R one with no issues as well.
2 - Throttle Body - ZDX
3 - MAP Sensor - ZDX
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS? No
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate - SHAWD-TL
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking? No
I have the 3.7 IM with ZDX TB and PnP Runners on my 04 5AT TL with no issues. I recently added the IM Spacer, similar to the P2R one with no issues as well.
01-25-2014, 11:40 PM
#12
IHC, you raise many valid points. I wish we could pinpoint the exact cause.
Rubenders has the problem. Swoosh didn't, but he's an automatic. It wouldn't be as pronounced or as much of an annoyance since he doesn't manually shift an disengage the transmission.
I know that ILC tinkered with KMS and both his 3.7L TB, 3.5L TB with adapter plate, and watched the Hondata datalogs and never came up with a solution. He found that the issue is independent of what throttle body leading me to believe that it's with the 3.7L intake manifold.
Automatic, see above.
Well, that should eliminate the throttle body from being the problem.
I'm just assuming the idle learn procedure was completed, I know you guys have the HDS.
Both have PNP runners as well, right? I also have PNP runners in. Since you're both on the 3.5L that means you're using the 3.5L top-plate, but I think you're right that shouldn't make much difference.
Did swoosh have the bucking problems? I know he's on a 3.2L 5AT, same as me. I think he has the TL-SHAWD TB.
lol.. anil needs to come over and let us know how he's setup and if he has the problem.
I think rubenders has a Type-S as well, duno if he has the problem still or not.
I'm just assuming the idle learn procedure was completed, I know you guys have the HDS.
Both have PNP runners as well, right? I also have PNP runners in. Since you're both on the 3.5L that means you're using the 3.5L top-plate, but I think you're right that shouldn't make much difference.
Did swoosh have the bucking problems? I know he's on a 3.2L 5AT, same as me. I think he has the TL-SHAWD TB.
lol.. anil needs to come over and let us know how he's setup and if he has the problem.
I think rubenders has a Type-S as well, duno if he has the problem still or not.
I know that ILC tinkered with KMS and both his 3.7L TB, 3.5L TB with adapter plate, and watched the Hondata datalogs and never came up with a solution. He found that the issue is independent of what throttle body leading me to believe that it's with the 3.7L intake manifold.
1 - Engine - J32A3
2 - Throttle Body - ZDX
3 - MAP Sensor - ZDX
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS? No
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate - SHAWD-TL
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking? No
I have the 3.7 IM with ZDX TB and PnP Runners on my 04 5AT TL with no issues. I recently added the IM Spacer, similar to the P2R one with no issues as well.
2 - Throttle Body - ZDX
3 - MAP Sensor - ZDX
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS? No
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate - SHAWD-TL
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking? No
I have the 3.7 IM with ZDX TB and PnP Runners on my 04 5AT TL with no issues. I recently added the IM Spacer, similar to the P2R one with no issues as well.
01-26-2014, 12:09 AM
#13
Drifting
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I have this same thing with my setup (3.7 IM, maxbored stock TB). It's not quite as violent as you're describing though. Certainly not enough to bother me. Maybe it's because I'm only using a bored TB instead of the 3.7.
01-26-2014, 08:12 AM
#15
Subscribed.. im thinking of doing a similar setup with my base
01-26-2014, 08:59 AM
#16
06 5AT here. I never had a single issue with this mod. I also have pnp runners and outlaw IM spacer. It has always run smooth and flawless.
1 - Engine - J32A3
2 - Throttle Body - ZDX
3 - MAP Sensor - ZDX
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS? No
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate - SHAWD-TL
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking? No
1 - Engine - J32A3
2 - Throttle Body - ZDX
3 - MAP Sensor - ZDX
4 - Did you perform the throttle position sensor adjustment with an HDS? No
5 - Intake Manifold Top Plate - SHAWD-TL
6 - Do you have this problem with bucking? No
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Grand_hustle17 (01-26-2014)
01-26-2014, 09:28 AM
#18
Senior Moderator
Do you have the dual stage im actuator hooked up?
01-26-2014, 09:32 AM
#19
I'm not even sure where it's located at on our cars to be honest or if it's hooked up. I googled and found your post.
https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-1999-2003-98/dual-stage-intake-manifold-question-511114/
https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-1999-2003-98/dual-stage-intake-manifold-question-511114/
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dandaman15 (01-26-2014)
01-26-2014, 11:07 AM
#20
I'm not even sure where it's located at on our cars to be honest or if it's hooked up. I googled and found your post.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=511114
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=511114
Last edited by dandaman15; 01-26-2014 at 11:12 AM.
01-26-2014, 11:18 AM
#21
The bucking is actually less of a problem than the rev hang. Bucking normally only occurs on cold start ups while the engine is still choked, and the only time that it really bucks is when I let off the throttle while still in 1st or 2nd gear under cold start conditions. Otherwise, it doesn't buck but every once in awhile. I would be okay with the bucking. But this rev hang is just killing the fun in driving a manual. I'm okay with losing 10whp if it means getting a clean shifting vehicle back again.
01-26-2014, 12:29 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
couple of misinterpretations in this thread that I'd like to clear up.
First off, going back to a 3.5 TB with an adapter for the 3.7 IM made a drastic improvement with the bucking issues. Now I only buck in 1st and sometimes 2nd, but only if I let off really easy - if the car has throttle and I let off it doesn't buck. And on the highway it never bucks anymore. The problem with the 3.7 TB that I had was that it would just randomly buck on the highway cruising at 60 mph, or if I accelerated and held the gas pedal at light throttle once I wound it up - in low gear it would buck.
That's gone. Big improvement, although not entirely perfect.
I did run a dyno with the 3.5 TB and the power and torque curve was identical to my 3.7 setup until about 6200 where I lost about 8 hp to redline. The differences in power are negligible. And the only reason I lost that power way up top is because of the cam profile I am running, which is expected.
There is 0 power difference from 1k rpm up to 6k for me going from 3.7 TB back down to the 3.5 TB.
I haven't been actively following up with hondata because I received a deposit for my car and expect it to be gone in a week or two when my buyer flies out here.
edit: i took some video 2 weeks ago just driving around, mainly for the sale of the car so people could see how it drives. Also at 4:25 you can see what remains of the bucking, pretty miniscule. This is with the 3.5 TB :
First off, going back to a 3.5 TB with an adapter for the 3.7 IM made a drastic improvement with the bucking issues. Now I only buck in 1st and sometimes 2nd, but only if I let off really easy - if the car has throttle and I let off it doesn't buck. And on the highway it never bucks anymore. The problem with the 3.7 TB that I had was that it would just randomly buck on the highway cruising at 60 mph, or if I accelerated and held the gas pedal at light throttle once I wound it up - in low gear it would buck.
That's gone. Big improvement, although not entirely perfect.
I did run a dyno with the 3.5 TB and the power and torque curve was identical to my 3.7 setup until about 6200 where I lost about 8 hp to redline. The differences in power are negligible. And the only reason I lost that power way up top is because of the cam profile I am running, which is expected.
There is 0 power difference from 1k rpm up to 6k for me going from 3.7 TB back down to the 3.5 TB.
I haven't been actively following up with hondata because I received a deposit for my car and expect it to be gone in a week or two when my buyer flies out here.
edit: i took some video 2 weeks ago just driving around, mainly for the sale of the car so people could see how it drives. Also at 4:25 you can see what remains of the bucking, pretty miniscule. This is with the 3.5 TB :
Last edited by i_love_cars; 01-26-2014 at 12:41 PM.
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01-26-2014, 12:36 PM
#23
couple of misinterpretations in this thread that I'd like to clear up.
First off, going back to a 3.5 TB with an adapter for the 3.7 IM made a drastic improvement with the bucking issues. Now I only buck in 1st and sometimes 2nd, but only if I let off really easy - if the car has throttle and I let off it doesn't buck. And on the highway it never bucks anymore. The problem with the 3.7 TB that I had was that it would just randomly buck on the highway cruising at 60 mph, or if I accelerated and held the gas pedal at light throttle once I wound it up - in low gear it would buck.
That's gone. Big improvement, although not entirely perfect.
I did run a dyno with the 3.5 TB and the power and torque curve was identical to my 3.7 setup until about 6200 where I lost about 8 hp to redline. The differences in power are negligible. And the only reason I lost that power way up top is because of the cam profile I am running, which is expected.
There is 0 power difference from 1k rpm up to 6k for me going from 3.7 TB back down to the 3.5 TB.
I haven't been actively following up with hondata because I received a deposit for my car and expect it to be gone in a week or two when my buyer flies out here.
First off, going back to a 3.5 TB with an adapter for the 3.7 IM made a drastic improvement with the bucking issues. Now I only buck in 1st and sometimes 2nd, but only if I let off really easy - if the car has throttle and I let off it doesn't buck. And on the highway it never bucks anymore. The problem with the 3.7 TB that I had was that it would just randomly buck on the highway cruising at 60 mph, or if I accelerated and held the gas pedal at light throttle once I wound it up - in low gear it would buck.
That's gone. Big improvement, although not entirely perfect.
I did run a dyno with the 3.5 TB and the power and torque curve was identical to my 3.7 setup until about 6200 where I lost about 8 hp to redline. The differences in power are negligible. And the only reason I lost that power way up top is because of the cam profile I am running, which is expected.
There is 0 power difference from 1k rpm up to 6k for me going from 3.7 TB back down to the 3.5 TB.
I haven't been actively following up with hondata because I received a deposit for my car and expect it to be gone in a week or two when my buyer flies out here.
01-26-2014, 01:14 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
I had rev hang way worse before I did the clutch slave cylinder check-valve delete, but that was due to the clutch not engaging fast enough, as opposed to throttle not closing properly.
01-26-2014, 03:26 PM
#25
Team Owner
ILC, great info. Does that sound weird to anyone else? I feel like we should be natural enemies lol. Anyway, does any of the software available for the TL allow you to change decel fuel cut parameters? I'm just wondering if you can make it more aggressive to where the fuel gets shut off as soon as your foot comes off the throttle instead of waiting a second or three. If there's no fuel there can be no bucking. Of course the rpms would still have to be above a certain point so it wouldn't help creeping through a parking lot too much.
01-26-2014, 04:22 PM
#26
Its at the opposite end of the TB on the intake manifold. There should be a black actuator there. If your automatic, Im not sure why anyone would get the top plate with the butterflies as they will stay closed making you lose power in the upper RPM's. To eliminate the possibility of the butterfly causing the issue, run it with it unpluged for a little bit. You'll get a code but if its opening and closing on its own that will stop it. I dont see the butterflies causing any issue though for the rev hang problem, but if its misinterpreting the signal and not working right at low speeds I can see it causing the bucking.
Even if the newer step motor didn't work, we can just move our old one over to the new top plate and plug it in no issues, the mounting point is identical.
I haven't bothered to check if the connector is the same, but I'm sure it is.
01-26-2014, 04:23 PM
#27
Interesting, and yes, you definitely have wayyyyy less rev hang than I do. So that element remain unchanged with 3.7TB vs 3.5TB? Just want to make sure that I understand correctly. Another question - does the throttle close synchronously when you let your foot off of the gas pedal? With my car, there is a very slight but noticeable delay in me letting my foot off of the gas and the throttle actually closing.
Last edited by JJH; 01-26-2014 at 04:27 PM.
01-26-2014, 06:32 PM
#28
Why wouldn't the butterflies work in the AT? It's the same setup as we have now, just on the 3.2 the butterflies are in the manifold itself instead of the top plate.
Even if the newer step motor didn't work, we can just move our old one over to the new top plate and plug it in no issues, the mounting point is identical.
I haven't bothered to check if the connector is the same, but I'm sure it is.
Even if the newer step motor didn't work, we can just move our old one over to the new top plate and plug it in no issues, the mounting point is identical.
I haven't bothered to check if the connector is the same, but I'm sure it is.
01-26-2014, 08:13 PM
#29
IHC - The decel fuel cut can be adjusted per gears with the flashpro. The values used by ILC are set lower/faster than stock, that could explain why he does not have rev hang between shifts. For me, fuel cut decel is set slower than stock to smoothen the bucking issues but rev hangs are worst than before with some rumble/backfires in the exhaust, but it's the price I'm willing to pay for smoother drive until hondata find something to fix this for TL...
01-26-2014, 08:28 PM
#30
IHC - The decel fuel cut can be adjusted per gears with the flashpro. The values used by ILC are set lower/faster than stock, that could explain why he does not have rev hang between shifts. For me, fuel cut decel is set slower than stock to smoothen the bucking issues but rev hangs are worst than before with some rumble/backfires in the exhaust, but it's the price I'm willing to pay for smoother drive until hondata find something to fix this for TL...
I have to shift like I'm driving an 18 wheeler or else it sounds and feels like crap.
01-26-2014, 09:38 PM
#31
As soon as I can find a competent passenger, I'm going to record a video of me running through the gears a few times to show everyone what I am experiencing. It would be interesting to compare my rev hang to yours if you could record a video. You can visibly see the needle go up in RPMs between shifts in my car. It freaking sucks, so I'm assuming that yours is less pronounced if you're okay with the trade off. On the other hand, I don't have pronounced bucking that often like I have read about a lot of people having.
I have to shift like I'm driving an 18 wheeler or else it sounds and feels like crap.
I have to shift like I'm driving an 18 wheeler or else it sounds and feels like crap.
I gain like 200-300 rpm sometimes between shifts.. and yes I have to drive like i'm on a 18 wheelers. Hondata as fix the problem for other cars but nothing for the TL yet:V1.7.0 (14 Nov 2013)
- [2006 Civic Si] Added parameter to enable full closure of throttle plate on deceleration & throttle opening vs flow table.
- [2012+ Civic Si, ILX] Added minimum throttle opening compensation table to allow for full closure of throttle plate on deceleration.
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JJH (01-26-2014)
01-26-2014, 09:45 PM
#32
Mine is not rev hang... but rev GAIN I gain like 200-300 rpm sometimes between shifts.. and yes I have to drive like i'm on a 18 wheelers. Hondata as fix the problem for other cars but nothing for the TL yet:
V1.7.0 (14 Nov 2013)
I gain like 200-300 rpm sometimes between shifts.. and yes I have to drive like i'm on a 18 wheelers. Hondata as fix the problem for other cars but nothing for the TL yet:V1.7.0 (14 Nov 2013)
- [2006 Civic Si] Added parameter to enable full closure of throttle plate on deceleration & throttle opening vs flow table.
- [2012+ Civic Si, ILX] Added minimum throttle opening compensation table to allow for full closure of throttle plate on deceleration.
01-27-2014, 07:39 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Ok, so this is what I'm experiencing too and I'm 100% stock.
Background: have had the car for year and a half now. Has always driven normal for a manual, that is, when foot comes off the gas, RPMs drop normally to ~750RPMs, period.
Last week I changed my air filter. Upon doing this, I noticed a line of carbon/dirt/whatever buildup right at the bottom of the TB plate. Don't know if it went all the way around, I could only see the bottom of the plate looking down the snorkel. Thus I had my TB cleaned.
Change was immediate. I now experience rev hang / engine run on between shifts. The RPMs don't climb or jump up as some have described, but they don't drop like before either, they kind of hang for a moment then start to fall. When I shift quick, the RPMs are higher then the gear - never did this before and very f'n annoying.
Here's the weird part - when I shift to neutral (or just hold the clutch in, same difference), the RPMs eventually drop down to ~800 RPMs, then jump up to ~1250 RPMs, back down to 800, and sometimes back to 1250 before finally settling down at ~800. It's never done that before either. Even when it finally settles down for good, it just feels high idle, not normal, between 800-900 RPMs, not the ~750 like before.
My friend said the TB plate was sticking a bit when it was dirty, and yes, they did a reset and idle learning procedure. I also let the car sit for 15-20mins on idle this weekend, all accessories / loads OFF. It helped, but the symptoms are still there.
Could it be some sensor gone faulty or off calibration? Loose cable? Needs idle manual adjustment?
I'm starting to think maybe this is how the car is supposed to act? Shoulda left it dirty if that's the case...
My EGR was checked but was clean. I almost get the feeling something sensitive got knocked out of whack during the cleaning...
Background: have had the car for year and a half now. Has always driven normal for a manual, that is, when foot comes off the gas, RPMs drop normally to ~750RPMs, period.
Last week I changed my air filter. Upon doing this, I noticed a line of carbon/dirt/whatever buildup right at the bottom of the TB plate. Don't know if it went all the way around, I could only see the bottom of the plate looking down the snorkel. Thus I had my TB cleaned.
Change was immediate. I now experience rev hang / engine run on between shifts. The RPMs don't climb or jump up as some have described, but they don't drop like before either, they kind of hang for a moment then start to fall. When I shift quick, the RPMs are higher then the gear - never did this before and very f'n annoying.
Here's the weird part - when I shift to neutral (or just hold the clutch in, same difference), the RPMs eventually drop down to ~800 RPMs, then jump up to ~1250 RPMs, back down to 800, and sometimes back to 1250 before finally settling down at ~800. It's never done that before either. Even when it finally settles down for good, it just feels high idle, not normal, between 800-900 RPMs, not the ~750 like before.
My friend said the TB plate was sticking a bit when it was dirty, and yes, they did a reset and idle learning procedure. I also let the car sit for 15-20mins on idle this weekend, all accessories / loads OFF. It helped, but the symptoms are still there.
Could it be some sensor gone faulty or off calibration? Loose cable? Needs idle manual adjustment?
I'm starting to think maybe this is how the car is supposed to act? Shoulda left it dirty if that's the case...
My EGR was checked but was clean. I almost get the feeling something sensitive got knocked out of whack during the cleaning...
Last edited by FamilyGuy; 01-27-2014 at 07:47 PM.
01-27-2014, 08:19 PM
#34
Everything you just described, I experience. It just makes for sloppy shifting and it's unnatural all together. Mine does the same thing where it will idle down to the normal RPM range and then jump up to like 1250 rpms and then descend back down. There is something at cause here, we just need to figure out what. This same mechanism is causing the rev hang/gain.
01-27-2014, 08:21 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
^^
Well, at least shouldn't be related to the 3.7 swap then...all I did was have my TB cleaned. There's got to be a common part that's getting messed up somewhere when we work on the TB.
Well, at least shouldn't be related to the 3.7 swap then...all I did was have my TB cleaned. There's got to be a common part that's getting messed up somewhere when we work on the TB.
Last edited by FamilyGuy; 01-27-2014 at 08:24 PM.
01-27-2014, 10:42 PM
#36
Some additional information that I would like to share that I feel is very important:
I don't have any rev hang or gain when the engine is cold AT ALL. It shifts just as I would expect it to. Once the engine warms up, I experience all of the above problems that I described.
I don't have any rev hang or gain when the engine is cold AT ALL. It shifts just as I would expect it to. Once the engine warms up, I experience all of the above problems that I described.
01-28-2014, 02:06 AM
#37
See the black coating near the shaft that the throttle plate is mounted to?
That's the coating I referred to above that is there to lubricate and also seal some of the gaps in the throttle body. If it was removed when your throttle body was cleaned then more air is getting by the throttle plate now.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread because this problem is not unique to our cars, even guys with cabled throttle bodies that have them bored out and don't put that molybdenum coating back on the throttle plate end up having the exact problem that we're now having.
SM actually states to ensure that coating isn't removed when cleaning the throttle body. pg 508 of the SM.
Maybe it's just the idle doesn't fluctuate as much when it's cold, since it's already idling higher when you shift it probably is staying right where it was at, then when it's warm and it idles lower it fluctuates on the shifts? Just a guess.
I'm really curious to see what the throttle plate is doing when this problem occurs, would be really cool to see a video of it happening. If the plate closes more then opens back up or if the plate is just closed at it's idle setting and too much air is getting by?
01-28-2014, 08:08 AM
#38
Three Wheelin'
When the throttle body was cleaned was the moly lubricant removed from the throttle plate on the rear of the throttle body?
See the black coating near the shaft that the throttle plate is mounted to?
That's the coating I referred to above that is there to lubricate and also seal some of the gaps in the throttle body. If it was removed when your throttle body was cleaned then more air is getting by the throttle plate now.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread because this problem is not unique to our cars, even guys with cabled throttle bodies that have them bored out and don't put that molybdenum coating back on the throttle plate end up having the exact problem that we're now having.
SM actually states to ensure that coating isn't removed when cleaning the throttle body. pg 508 of the SM.
See the black coating near the shaft that the throttle plate is mounted to?
That's the coating I referred to above that is there to lubricate and also seal some of the gaps in the throttle body. If it was removed when your throttle body was cleaned then more air is getting by the throttle plate now.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread because this problem is not unique to our cars, even guys with cabled throttle bodies that have them bored out and don't put that molybdenum coating back on the throttle plate end up having the exact problem that we're now having.
SM actually states to ensure that coating isn't removed when cleaning the throttle body. pg 508 of the SM.
How do we re-coat it?
01-28-2014, 08:13 AM
#39
Three Wheelin'
And how come the newer TL / ZDX 3.7 TB doesn't have it?
01-28-2014, 08:45 AM
#40
Are you sure that it doesn't have it? Maybe it just doesn't come with it since a throttle body isn't exactly a typical item for an end consumer to replace. I want to go rip off my intake and check but not when the temperature is -13 degrees out lol. I am going to check my 3.5TB/IM to see if it has this coating.
Edit: I also read that the purpose of the moly coating is to prevent carbon build up in the throttle body, not to prevent more air flow than should be.
http://www.fireblades.org/forums/hon...olybdenum.html
I checked my stock 3.5TB and it doesn't have the coating like the above pictured throttle body.
Edit: I also read that the purpose of the moly coating is to prevent carbon build up in the throttle body, not to prevent more air flow than should be.
http://www.fireblades.org/forums/hon...olybdenum.html
I checked my stock 3.5TB and it doesn't have the coating like the above pictured throttle body.
Last edited by JJH; 01-28-2014 at 08:55 AM.