I hate cars

No, no, no. It does not work that way. It can only retard so much. Mine can't even retard it enough on 91 octane to keep knock away in the summer heat and I'm stock.

Once the knock starts, the sensor can only reduce it but everyone who does forced induction knows that the only way to do it right is to have 0 knock in the first place. The knock sensor won't stop you from blowing an engine due to knock.

And even if it could, your timing is so retarded that your EGTs are skyrocketing and you're burning exhaust valves and melting pistons. Monitoring knock is more important than the AF guages because lots of knock will blow things instantly.

You guys really need to get out of the stone age here. Running boost without monitoring knock is unthinkable in most circles.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Please explain what you mean by monitoring knock, a indicator light? Something that cuts boost when it sees knock. From the looks of the knock box it was led lights to indicate knock. I would run the car right if I knew better.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

I would not run the HBP. Have paul make you a custom pulley. Its too big and the comp-tech s/c cannot handle it, and will cause problems with the s/c.

I hate cars

Most of them are a series of lights like green, yellow, red with it changing with the severity of the knock.

I personally use an old one with a very loud annoying buzzer when there's knock. With the lights you can get too caught up in the moment and not see them but a loud annoying buzzer will get your attention.

I'm not aware of anything that cuts boost other than your right foot but it's a great tuning tool. With this you can safely start increasing boost until it knocks. Then you have the normal options, more meth, less boost, etc.

This way you know when you're in the danger zone and you know just how far you can safely push the car without hurting anything. You can use this to make it more reliable and at the same time faster.

You can get a little more aggressive with the AF ratios since you're monitoring the bottom line.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

All this sounds great, but we are only running 5 PSI on the stock pulley. It would be great for the HBP, but I advise people to never use it. It would be more in your case to use it because aren't you pushing an upwards of 20 PSI?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I am getting info for my turbo build since I will be pushing 8+ psi.

RonJonTL757

What do you mean by too big? Isint the HBP smaller in diameter?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Yup, to big boost wise. The HBP is smaller that the reg pulley.

I hate cars

I run only 17psi for the street, 28psi on the track.

But it's irrelevent. I can get away with more boost due to the low 8.5 compression. I've monitored this thing for many years so I detune it to a very safe level if I don't have the laptop with me or at least the knock guage. My 17psi is as safe as 1psi on a TL.

Your supercharged TLs will knock at 5psi. Even stock TLs have some knock. Nobody knows this because they don't bother to install a knock guage. A knock guage should be standard on any aftermarket FI application.

As your power levels increase with boost, the engine becomes less and less tolerant of knock. What is acceptable NA is no longer acceptable with the supercharger on it.

Even if you don't get knock at 5psi, if something goes wrong like a drop in FP, an overheat, a bad batch of gas, etc it will save your engine.

I don't understand why everyone is so resistant to this simple thing when you spend tons of money on other guages and supercharger kits.
Monitoring knock will prevent engine failures period. There is nothing more effective.

This one thing, monitoring knock, allowed me to go from blowing things up at the 380rwhp level to being reliable at 602rwhp. Think about that for a second.

You can run the HBP all day long reliably if you can do it without knock.

Inaccurate

KNOCK MONITOR

I agree with IHC. Seeing how important having a knock monitor is, a person should be willing to pay to get a top notch one. After doing some searching around, I found that many tuners love the Phormula, made in Europe (click here). It can be purchased from Lindsey Racing (click here).



















Here are three short videos showing the knock sensor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJ75dvIfoU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MTsDOOBGvY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTYSsoIE1FY



The Phormula, like many other aftermarket knock monitors, uses a Bosch knock sensor. The location and quality of the mounting surface for the sensor is vitality important to it's optimum operation. I found Bosch's tech papers for the sensor -

Bosch Knock sensors (click here)
Bosch Data Sheet (click here)
Bosch Drawing (click here)

It nice knowing that a person can easily purchase a replacement sensor if needed. However, I doubt that a person would need to replace the sensor. This exact sensor is used in many oem applications such as Porsche's.

For the mounting position for the knock sensor, I would recommend to mount the sensor in the oem location. Plus, I would want the oem sensor removed (incapacitated) because I would now be monitoring and managing the knock myself, not the oem ecu.






The oem mount uses a 10mm diameter stud, whereas the Bosch sensor can only accept a 8mm bolt. So, you will need a threaded insert to convert from a M12 x 1.25 thread to a M8 x 1.25 thread. The Bosch sensor requires an exact tightening torque of 14 ft.Lbs.

Don't worry about purchasing the bolt. The bolt comes with the Phormula monitor.

Here is where you can purchase the $3.10 threaded insert (see link below).

M8 x 1.25 Int. Thd., M12 x 1.25 Ext. Thd., 12 Lg., Thinwall,
Keylocking Threaded Inserts, Steel (click here)

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

So knock comes and goes? You just have to make sure its not "there" when you beat on the car?

Inaccurate

^ I defer to IHC.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

What do you think the stock Ecu will do if you disconnect the knock sensor? Thanks for the info, looks like the turbo kit will not come with a knock box.

Inaccurate

I have not installed my Phormula knock monitor yet, but here is my plan.

I have a new knock sensor in case I need it. With this new sensor, I tested it with a DVM (digital volt meter).

Between the two red arrows -
a) there is no continuity.
b) there is infinity resistance (open circuit).
c) some voltage is produced when the sensor is tapped.

According to the wiring diagram, the ecu has no way of knowing if the sensor is removed if I am correct about the infinity resistance between the two red arrows.

On the other hand, we have this thread saying that the Check Engine light will come on it a mouse chews the wire. It is my theory that the chewed-up wire was shorting to ground. I could easily see how the ecu would know about a short to ground.

Knock sensor chewed by a mouse/Mice eating wires/Mouse Ate my TL (merged threads) (click here)

My plan is that the oem sensor is permanently coming out of it's oem location. That cherry spot (oem sensor location) is for the Phormula (Bosch) knock sensor. I will see what the ecu does if I leave the terminal unplugged. If indeed the ecu knows that the terminal is unplugged, I will attach the new oem sensor. But, I will place the new oem sensor somewhere/somehow as to cushion it from any vibrations.

It will be about a month before I get-around to trying it.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

So if a knock box says you're knocking, you simply drive easy?

I'm looking at all the different products and the packages vary greatly. What I gather is that the knock analysis should be part of the tuning process on the dyno so I take from this is that you just need something simple for daily monitoring.

I'm putting a MAC in my car so I was looking to see if there is anything sent over the OBD II stream, but it looks like right now no one has this for Honda. Saw GM applications that would even go down to the offending cylinder.

Inaccurate

^ Just like your gauges, the knock monitor is commonly meant for daily monitoring. With a highly tuned engine, there are any number of things that could go wrong. The permanently mounted knock monitor is used to catch a failure that would cause the engine to begin to knock, even to the degree of engine damage.

One example of what could typically go wrong is purchasing some bad gasoline. Another example would be your water/meth tank ran dry. Or, the turbo was unable to control boost causing boost levels to soar.

Most people say that a person should not do their own tuning with gauges in the car. But, you know me. If a person has gauges that can be trusted and a person has the technical skills to interpret the meaning of the gauges, I see no problem with using the on-board gauges to do tuning too in addition to daily monitoring.

If a person was experiencing knock with a normal family car, no real engine damage would occur. However, with a highly boosted engine under wot and full load, the engine will self destruct quickly. If you have a highly boosted car and the engine is knocking, remove your foot as quickly as possible off of the accelerator.

I will defer any further details to IHC to answer. I really don't have any experience in these areas but I am learning as much as I can by reading. Whereas, IHC does have vast firsthand experience in this topic.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm looking at getting a knock box and the Phormula looks like a decent unit. Does anyone think there is any benefit in the KS4 over the 3? Would we ever have the ability for this unit to control the timing to the point of eliminating the knock? I am thinking if J&R get the ECU cracked that maybe this would be possible?

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

How much would I be spending on one of these, and how is the install?

Inaccurate

Check here for pricing of the Phormula, Lindsey Racing (click here, scroll to the bottom of the page).

How to install? I recommend putting the sensor in the oem location.... not an easy job. A person could take the easy route by mounting the sensor someplace on the block. But, I think the easy route would comprimise it's ability to detect knock. Just my feeling. Researching google shows that most people agree that the optimum location is the oem location for any engine. If someone really wanted to read more about the best location, they could purchase this SAE paper, “Combustion Knock Sensing--Sensor Selection and Application Issues “ (click here)

The Phormula is not perfect. I wish it had a LOUD buzzer. I wish it was 2-1/16 diameter so that it could be mounted like any other gauge. I wish it had a 12v relay that could be trigger if knocking occurred.

The Phormula lacks any mounting options. It comes with a strip of Velcro so that it can be Velco'ed to the dash. I intended to make an aluminum bracket to mount the Phormula on the A column like other gauge on the A column.

However, it does have good knock detecting ability according to my Google searching. It is purchased as a complete, ready to install, kit.

Real hardcore tuners will use headphones to detect knock. There are some things that the human brain can do better that electronics. This is one of those case. This is why you will see serious knock monitors offer the option of using headphones. The tuner will listen to the signal emitting from the knock sensor. The person (human brain) can easily distinguish between background noise and real knocking. It is very difficult to program electronics to distinguish the difference.

Some “back yard” tuners will make “Cans” that allow them to hear knock with no knock sensor. They use copper tubing running from the engine block and run the tubing into ear muffs. From what I read, it does work EXTREMELY well for hearing knock.

Listening to the knock signal, as discussed in the previous two paragraphs, will allow a person to detect the early stages of knock. Whereas a knock monitor detects the final (deadly) stages of knock. This is why professional tuners will use headphones while dyno tuning.

There are other brands of knock monitors, such as the Knock Link. Here is an article about the Knock Link (click here). The only place in the USA that I found that sells it is RalliTEK Performance (click here).

Another brand is the The Knock Box (click here), sold by Lightspeed Innovations (click here) in Canada.

There is also the TurboXS Knock (click here). Here is a review of it (click here). The problem with this knock monitor is that it requires a tachometer input. I do not want to hack my coil wires. It can be purchased here (click here).

HKS makes a sophisticated monitor (click here).

I found this place (click here) that sells some other brands of knock monitors, but it is in the UK.

RonJonTL757

Visited my aunt in Herndon today and wadddua know SMALL WORLD as i ran into another member that lives in the complex. Gave him a ride enjoy

I give my clutch 10K more as its already slipping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpYtuBlIiEk

Inaccurate

^ WOW. Awesome.

L O V E that whine.

Thanks for the vid

RonJonTL757

Thanks, btw did you notice my full tank of gas

Inaccurate

Honestly, I was too focus on the whine and watching the speedo and boost gauge. Great job on gear shifting too. KUDOS dude

t0talacuratl

iTrader: (3)

Wow E; that seems fasting that the ride you gave me the other night. Soooooooo tempting!

Souljah

So sexy...
The passenger said the perfect describing sentence.
"Dayum! This biatch is quick dude!"

tenzingsherpa

lol ^^^ tru that

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Where are you all tapping into the constant and switched 12v for your gauges?

RonJonTL757

LoL get it

Ha yeah he had no idea what to expect!!



The A/F gauge was done professionaly and the boost gauge i did but wasnt sure myself where to tap into to get lighting so at night i cant see it

However im gonna get a buddy who did my system to do the lighting for the gauge and when he does ill let you know where and what wires he uses.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

Tap into the parking lights. So when they go on your boost gauge goes on.

RonJonTL757

Yeah that what i wanna do but where is the wire inside the car coming out of the fuse box or maybe from the switch on the left of the column

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

I just ran a wire through the firewall and went directly into it. It was easier then taking apart the dash.

RonJonTL757

just wondering but did the ACM increase my redline from 6700 to 7000? I was running yesterday and i could have sworn it went to 7K

I hate cars

I think the stock limiter kicks in at 6,900rpm but on the dyno mine went to 7,100rpm before hitting the limiter.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

The 6 speed doesn't cut fuel or rev limit until 7k maybe 7200. Have you been able to feel the 4000 vtec cross over? You may not feel it so much as you go thru 4k rpm but get up to 4100 and stomp on it and the car pulls so hard it's crazy. Many fast cars have backed down from a 4th gear pull above 4k.

RonJonTL757

Im not sure about 7200 but i know for sure i have hit the limiter at 6700 before pre-SC.

Ya know i have been wondering about the 4K VTEC engagement because i cant say that i hear it (damn SOHC) but i notice that if im around 4k and i stomp it kinda surges or bucks on me but stomping over 4K and from the start it is very smooth.

Oh that reminds me but a few times sitting at a light i noticed my rpms drop from 750 to about 500 for a split second like it wants to stall but it dosent. My afr goes to about 17 ish and then back to normal Any ideas??


10,000 Views

I hate cars

I doubt the manual and auto have a different limiter. It's there to protect the engine and has nothing to do with the trans.

RonJonTL757

Thanks man but we discussed that several pages ago. i got my hands on a new set of V2's

Keep up that progress on your badass UA9. cant wait to see it in person

Got'em

phee

iTrader: (5)

i experience the smae thing. sometimes my limiter kicks in at 6800 and sometimes it goes to 7100. i just think its because the needle is moving so fast it has a little extra momentum.

RonJonTL757

Got another one for ya guys. Wanted to max out but i was already scared shitless with 1 hand on the wheel. Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L_Cp2lLv50

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

with a turbo kit and a SC kit they gotta start including the video cam kit (holder and other accessories) LOL