My 3.7 mani, ZDX TB, and pnp runners build thread
#121
All motor
One thing I noticed about my P2R gasket (yet to install because of it), is that it doesn't line up with my OEM gasket. The holes are a bit off.
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#124
Burning Brakes
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alright so I'm back from the dyno. As I posted earlier on page 3, I expected to pull 282 with the stock mani/TB, and i was almost dead on as I peaked at 281.98. Go me.
As expected it ran richer with the stock mani/TB given all of my exhaust mods, so again no surprises.
I'm very pleased with the results. a gain of 7whp and nearly 5 wtq for just slapping the 3.7 im/tb on with my existing mods is pretty good.
They said it'll probably take a week to turn around the PnP job, so I am expecting to be able to get back to the dyno not this coming week but the following with the PnP'ed parts.
As expected it ran richer with the stock mani/TB given all of my exhaust mods, so again no surprises.
I'm very pleased with the results. a gain of 7whp and nearly 5 wtq for just slapping the 3.7 im/tb on with my existing mods is pretty good.
They said it'll probably take a week to turn around the PnP job, so I am expecting to be able to get back to the dyno not this coming week but the following with the PnP'ed parts.
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#126
Suzuka Master
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Nice. I wonder if the 3.5 Type-S manifold flows any better than the 3.2/3.0 manifolds?
I've already got the ported runners, and I don't plan on doing anything to the 3.7 manifold, just going to send the ZDX TB to Maxbore. I think the TB porting will only add one, maybe two whp over a factory stock ZDX TB.
I should be able to pick up a solid 1 mph in the quarter by doing this, plus there's still the option of a larger intake. The ~10 lb weight reduction doesn't hurt either.
I've already got the ported runners, and I don't plan on doing anything to the 3.7 manifold, just going to send the ZDX TB to Maxbore. I think the TB porting will only add one, maybe two whp over a factory stock ZDX TB.
I should be able to pick up a solid 1 mph in the quarter by doing this, plus there's still the option of a larger intake. The ~10 lb weight reduction doesn't hurt either.
Last edited by anx1300c; 10-20-2012 at 01:55 PM.
#127
Burning Brakes
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The bisi cams are definitely on my radar for when Spring rolls around. I may hold off on that for a while due to the potential of future tuning solutions for the J-series that I've been hearing about on pretty good authority.
#128
Burning Brakes
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Nice. I wonder if the 3.5 Type-S manifold flows any better than the 3.2/3.0 manifolds?
I've already got the ported runners, and I don't plan on doing anything to the 3.7 manifold, just going to send the ZDX TB to Maxbore. I think the TB porting will only add one, maybe two whp over a factory stock ZDX TB.
I should be able to pick up a solid 1 mph in the quarter by doing this, plus there's still the option of a larger intake. The ~10 weight reduction doesn't hurt either.
I've already got the ported runners, and I don't plan on doing anything to the 3.7 manifold, just going to send the ZDX TB to Maxbore. I think the TB porting will only add one, maybe two whp over a factory stock ZDX TB.
I should be able to pick up a solid 1 mph in the quarter by doing this, plus there's still the option of a larger intake. The ~10 weight reduction doesn't hurt either.
I also think you're right about the TB - the gains on a maxbore job are going to be more noticeable on a stock 3.2 or 3.5 TB. The ZDX is so big already that I don't see much to be gained, really.
I'm expecting that with bored TB and PnP, that the car will probably flirt with 300 whp.
#129
Racer
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Nice. I wonder if the 3.5 Type-S manifold flows any better than the 3.2/3.0 manifolds?
I've already got the ported runners, and I don't plan on doing anything to the 3.7 manifold, just going to send the ZDX TB to Maxbore. I think the TB porting will only add one, maybe two whp over a factory stock ZDX TB.
I should be able to pick up a solid 1 mph in the quarter by doing this, plus there's still the option of a larger intake. The ~10 lb weight reduction doesn't hurt either.
I've already got the ported runners, and I don't plan on doing anything to the 3.7 manifold, just going to send the ZDX TB to Maxbore. I think the TB porting will only add one, maybe two whp over a factory stock ZDX TB.
I should be able to pick up a solid 1 mph in the quarter by doing this, plus there's still the option of a larger intake. The ~10 lb weight reduction doesn't hurt either.
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hondazex (10-20-2012)
#132
Burning Brakes
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just got off the phone with King. Interesting conversation.
So basically they said the only value I am going to see is by boring out the TB at this point.
They also said the ZDX TB may not be able to be exactly matched to the 3.7 TL manifold - the manifold opening on the 3.7 is much larger than the ZDX outlet, they said.
So I greenlighted the bored TB of course.
They said they measured everything out on the runners and the outlet end of the intake manifold and said the stock ports are very very good. They also confirmed that you cannot easily pull the manifold apart to port the whole thing because the clamshell is glued together from the factory.
They are of the mindset that until I can get cams, and preferable port the heads, and have a tuning solution, there isn't much point to porting the runners and intake manifold outlet.
So I'm gonna see what the bored ZDX TB does and go from there.
So basically they said the only value I am going to see is by boring out the TB at this point.
They also said the ZDX TB may not be able to be exactly matched to the 3.7 TL manifold - the manifold opening on the 3.7 is much larger than the ZDX outlet, they said.
So I greenlighted the bored TB of course.
They said they measured everything out on the runners and the outlet end of the intake manifold and said the stock ports are very very good. They also confirmed that you cannot easily pull the manifold apart to port the whole thing because the clamshell is glued together from the factory.
They are of the mindset that until I can get cams, and preferable port the heads, and have a tuning solution, there isn't much point to porting the runners and intake manifold outlet.
So I'm gonna see what the bored ZDX TB does and go from there.
#134
All motor
Hmmm....interesting. Definitely agree with the ZDX outlet not being as large as the intake manifold. My 3.7 TB is bored to 81/72 and the manifold I measured to be 76mm. George from Maxbore said he 'tapered' it to 75mm, but I'm not quite sure that was even possible lol.
Call them back. Tell them you weren't planning on porting the 'head' side of the runners (tear drop side), only the manifold side. I think that will change their mind. If you had the head side ported, it would create turbulence because the stock runners match perfectly to the head (I assume), so unless you ported the heads as well, it wouldn't make sense. This is because the head side of your unner will be larger than the heads themselves, so the flow won't be smooth. However, if you port match the lower ports of the manifold to the OEM gasket, and the runners to the gasket as well, I guarantee you will make more power. Just some food for thought.
FYI my trap speed increased almost 2mph since the manifold/TB/runners...
Call them back. Tell them you weren't planning on porting the 'head' side of the runners (tear drop side), only the manifold side. I think that will change their mind. If you had the head side ported, it would create turbulence because the stock runners match perfectly to the head (I assume), so unless you ported the heads as well, it wouldn't make sense. This is because the head side of your unner will be larger than the heads themselves, so the flow won't be smooth. However, if you port match the lower ports of the manifold to the OEM gasket, and the runners to the gasket as well, I guarantee you will make more power. Just some food for thought.
FYI my trap speed increased almost 2mph since the manifold/TB/runners...
Last edited by Sonnick; 10-24-2012 at 12:23 PM.
#135
Burning Brakes
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Hmmm....interesting. Definitely agree with the ZDX outlet not being as large as the intake manifold. My 3.7 TB is bored to 81/72 and the manifold I measured to be 76mm. George from Maxbore said he 'tapered' it to 75mm, but I'm not quite sure that was even possible lol.
Call them back. Tell them you weren't planning on porting the 'head' side of the runners (tear drop side), only the manifold side. I think that will change their mind. If you had the head side ported, it would create turbulence because the stock runners match perfectly to the head (I assume), so unless you ported the heads as well, it wouldn't make sense. This is because the head side of your unner will be larger than the heads themselves, so the flow won't be smooth. However, if you port match the lower ports of the manifold to the OEM gasket, and the runners to the gasket as well, I guarantee you will make more power. Just some food for thought.
FYI my trap speed increased almost 2mph since the manifold/TB/runners...
Call them back. Tell them you weren't planning on porting the 'head' side of the runners (tear drop side), only the manifold side. I think that will change their mind. If you had the head side ported, it would create turbulence because the stock runners match perfectly to the head (I assume), so unless you ported the heads as well, it wouldn't make sense. This is because the head side of your unner will be larger than the heads themselves, so the flow won't be smooth. However, if you port match the lower ports of the manifold to the OEM gasket, and the runners to the gasket as well, I guarantee you will make more power. Just some food for thought.
FYI my trap speed increased almost 2mph since the manifold/TB/runners...
They just don't think you'll see any worthwhile gains from widening those ports right now. Without any empirical data behind me, I can't really argue with them. Just because a car made gains with ported TB/IM/Runners doesn't mean a different car will (although there are obvious identical factors in the accord vs TL).
If they are meeting me with as much resistance as they are, then I can't imagine they think it'll gain much, because they want to make money on services like any other business.
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Sonnick (10-24-2012)
#136
All motor
Fair enough. I hope I didn't come off as doubting your knowledge from my previous post. Not my intentions at all. I can see how it's possible you could've interpreted it that way and if so, my apologies as that was not my intent.
They seem pretty legit in telling you that. They could always charge you an extra $200 just to do it and have you gain 2hp. That shows a company that is for the customer, which is always nice to see. Glad you are going for this btw. Let us know how it turns out.
They seem pretty legit in telling you that. They could always charge you an extra $200 just to do it and have you gain 2hp. That shows a company that is for the customer, which is always nice to see. Glad you are going for this btw. Let us know how it turns out.
#137
Burning Brakes
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Fair enough. I hope I didn't come off as doubting your knowledge from my previous post. Not my intentions at all. I can see how it's possible you could've interpreted it that way and if so, my apologies as that was not my intent.
They seem pretty legit in telling you that. They could always charge you an extra $200 just to do it and have you gain 2hp. That shows a company that is for the customer, which is always nice to see. Glad you are going for this btw. Let us know how it turns out.
They seem pretty legit in telling you that. They could always charge you an extra $200 just to do it and have you gain 2hp. That shows a company that is for the customer, which is always nice to see. Glad you are going for this btw. Let us know how it turns out.
and they could be wrong, who knows, but they've obviously spent a lot of time working on air flow over the years so if they say something won't make nearly as much gain as opposed to boring the TB as they recommend, then I am inclined to just go with it.
and yes, it shows they aren't just out to rip people off. Especially considering how slow their bench is right now given the time of year.
#138
All motor
Cool man. I feel like you've already answered this, but.....track? Would be another tell tale sign of gains before/after the manifold swap.
#139
alright so I'm back from the dyno. As I posted earlier on page 3, I expected to pull 282 with the stock mani/TB, and i was almost dead on as I peaked at 281.98. Go me.
As expected it ran richer with the stock mani/TB given all of my exhaust mods, so again no surprises.
I'm very pleased with the results. a gain of 7whp and nearly 5 wtq for just slapping the 3.7 im/tb on with my existing mods is pretty good.
They said it'll probably take a week to turn around the PnP job, so I am expecting to be able to get back to the dyno not this coming week but the following with the PnP'ed parts.
As expected it ran richer with the stock mani/TB given all of my exhaust mods, so again no surprises.
I'm very pleased with the results. a gain of 7whp and nearly 5 wtq for just slapping the 3.7 im/tb on with my existing mods is pretty good.
They said it'll probably take a week to turn around the PnP job, so I am expecting to be able to get back to the dyno not this coming week but the following with the PnP'ed parts.
i wonder what the gains will be with this manifold when using a SC
#142
Burning Brakes
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If you had bought the TL TB for 500 bucks, then paid 150 for boring, you'd be paying that much extra potentially for no gains - it would be a good experiment but there's no guarantee you'd see any significant additional power gains from the TL TB. With the ZDX and 3.7 manifold, it's pretty well opened up.
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t0talacuratl (10-26-2012)
#143
Suzuka Master
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Yeah, but IIRC, the TL-SHAWD TB (manifold side) is also smaller than the opening on the manifold, so it's really not an issue. I believe there was a thread on the k20 forums with all the measurements, and I believe the measurements between the ZDX and TL-SHAWD TB's were negligible at best, as in <1mm. After boring the ZDX TB it'll be plenty effective. As long as the mouth of the manifold is slightly larger than the TB, as it still will be, all will be fine.
Last edited by anx1300c; 10-24-2012 at 04:48 PM.
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t0talacuratl (10-26-2012)
#144
All motor
I heard that the ZDX throttle body can be bored wider on the manifold side than the 3.7 TL throttle body. This I heard from K20a.org where I found out the ZDX fit. Of course it was after I had already purchased the TL throttle body, but I got it for a discounted price as compared to new
#145
takin care of Business in
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holy shit i missed this thread....
great work I_LOVE_CARS !!!
and that is some nice power your car has made....I think the port and polish will gain you more and you need a wider intake....those 2-3 things will help you get closer to 300 and if not pass it....
for putting everything together....
also, can you list your mods?
great work I_LOVE_CARS !!!
and that is some nice power your car has made....I think the port and polish will gain you more and you need a wider intake....those 2-3 things will help you get closer to 300 and if not pass it....
for putting everything together....
also, can you list your mods?
#146
Burning Brakes
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bored throttle body and cleaned up IM inlet are complete as of today and I installed everything this evening.
Been driving the car all night to get the ECU adjusted as I have a dyno appointment at 9 a.m. tomorrow to see what the bored TB will do.
swoosh, my mods that are significant to power gains would be HFPC's, v3 j-pipe, atlp v2 quads, and aem v2 intake. Now put all together of course with the 3.7 manifold/TB.
Been driving the car all night to get the ECU adjusted as I have a dyno appointment at 9 a.m. tomorrow to see what the bored TB will do.
swoosh, my mods that are significant to power gains would be HFPC's, v3 j-pipe, atlp v2 quads, and aem v2 intake. Now put all together of course with the 3.7 manifold/TB.
#147
bored throttle body and cleaned up IM inlet are complete as of today and I installed everything this evening.
Been driving the car all night to get the ECU adjusted as I have a dyno appointment at 9 a.m. tomorrow to see what the bored TB will do.
swoosh, my mods that are significant to power gains would be HFPC's, v3 j-pipe, atlp v2 quads, and aem v2 intake. Now put all together of course with the 3.7 manifold/TB.
Been driving the car all night to get the ECU adjusted as I have a dyno appointment at 9 a.m. tomorrow to see what the bored TB will do.
swoosh, my mods that are significant to power gains would be HFPC's, v3 j-pipe, atlp v2 quads, and aem v2 intake. Now put all together of course with the 3.7 manifold/TB.
#148
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but those are some good numbers....I would expect you to be around 297-298whp with those mods....
and if you get PCD's instead of the HFC, hello 305-310whp
also, I agree with the above comment of getting a bigger intake....either do a 4" custom or increase the diameter of the aem v2
#149
Burning Brakes
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no PnP - only a bored TB. Per my earlier posts, King looked at everything and took measurements and they didn't think i'd see any significant gains from a PnP because they can't pull apart the clamshell IM without having to cut and re-weld or something else to put it back together, because the 2 pieces are adhered from the factory.
They said porting the IM inlet is worthless because the TB outlet isn't even big enough to match it, and at that point you're just porting the runner openings and IM outlet holes, which they didn't feel would give me much until I can port the entire runners and heads, cams, etc.
Basically they refused to take my money even if I wanted them to do it.
anyways, I dyno'd today with the bored TB and I think it's good for 1-2 whp given it was a ZDX Tb and 3.7 manifold - if it was a stock TB to stock manifold and they were all port-matched, I think you'd see bigger gains.
I have the dyno charts and will post later, but we had some significant pressure and temp changes that are going to make the numbers disparate.
They were slightly lower by about 2 whp but once you see how much CF was factored in against the uncorrected values, it makes more sense.
The good news is everything seems consistent, throttle response is improved with the TB, and power feels about the same as when I had the un-modified ZDX TB and 3.7 manifold on.
As of now the car is driving well, idle is stabilizing, and no CEL's from the IAT relocation into the AEM V2 intake which is all good.
They said porting the IM inlet is worthless because the TB outlet isn't even big enough to match it, and at that point you're just porting the runner openings and IM outlet holes, which they didn't feel would give me much until I can port the entire runners and heads, cams, etc.
Basically they refused to take my money even if I wanted them to do it.
anyways, I dyno'd today with the bored TB and I think it's good for 1-2 whp given it was a ZDX Tb and 3.7 manifold - if it was a stock TB to stock manifold and they were all port-matched, I think you'd see bigger gains.
I have the dyno charts and will post later, but we had some significant pressure and temp changes that are going to make the numbers disparate.
They were slightly lower by about 2 whp but once you see how much CF was factored in against the uncorrected values, it makes more sense.
The good news is everything seems consistent, throttle response is improved with the TB, and power feels about the same as when I had the un-modified ZDX TB and 3.7 manifold on.
As of now the car is driving well, idle is stabilizing, and no CEL's from the IAT relocation into the AEM V2 intake which is all good.
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Sonnick (10-26-2012)
#150
All motor
Once the CF was factored in, what were the final numbers? I'm assuming you 'lost' 2whp since the numbers were uncorrected. But SAE vs. SAE, how much did you gain?
#151
Suzuka Master
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ported and polished 3.7 manifold/TB
but those are some good numbers....I would expect you to be around 297-298whp with those mods....
and if you get PCD's instead of the HFC, hello 305-310whp
also, I agree with the above comment of getting a bigger intake....either do a 4" custom or increase the diameter of the aem v2
but those are some good numbers....I would expect you to be around 297-298whp with those mods....
and if you get PCD's instead of the HFC, hello 305-310whp
also, I agree with the above comment of getting a bigger intake....either do a 4" custom or increase the diameter of the aem v2
#152
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no PnP - only a bored TB. Per my earlier posts, King looked at everything and took measurements and they didn't think i'd see any significant gains from a PnP because they can't pull apart the clamshell IM without having to cut and re-weld or something else to put it back together, because the 2 pieces are adhered from the factory.
They said porting the IM inlet is worthless because the TB outlet isn't even big enough to match it, and at that point you're just porting the runner openings and IM outlet holes, which they didn't feel would give me much until I can port the entire runners and heads, cams, etc.
Basically they refused to take my money even if I wanted them to do it.
anyways, I dyno'd today with the bored TB and I think it's good for 1-2 whp given it was a ZDX Tb and 3.7 manifold - if it was a stock TB to stock manifold and they were all port-matched, I think you'd see bigger gains.
I have the dyno charts and will post later, but we had some significant pressure and temp changes that are going to make the numbers disparate.
They were slightly lower by about 2 whp but once you see how much CF was factored in against the uncorrected values, it makes more sense.
The good news is everything seems consistent, throttle response is improved with the TB, and power feels about the same as when I had the un-modified ZDX TB and 3.7 manifold on.
As of now the car is driving well, idle is stabilizing, and no CEL's from the IAT relocation into the AEM V2 intake which is all good.
They said porting the IM inlet is worthless because the TB outlet isn't even big enough to match it, and at that point you're just porting the runner openings and IM outlet holes, which they didn't feel would give me much until I can port the entire runners and heads, cams, etc.
Basically they refused to take my money even if I wanted them to do it.
anyways, I dyno'd today with the bored TB and I think it's good for 1-2 whp given it was a ZDX Tb and 3.7 manifold - if it was a stock TB to stock manifold and they were all port-matched, I think you'd see bigger gains.
I have the dyno charts and will post later, but we had some significant pressure and temp changes that are going to make the numbers disparate.
They were slightly lower by about 2 whp but once you see how much CF was factored in against the uncorrected values, it makes more sense.
The good news is everything seems consistent, throttle response is improved with the TB, and power feels about the same as when I had the un-modified ZDX TB and 3.7 manifold on.
As of now the car is driving well, idle is stabilizing, and no CEL's from the IAT relocation into the AEM V2 intake which is all good.
I know sonnick gained a lot from the new manifold + TB + pnp
PCD's aren't going to make 8-12 whp over 200 cell race cats. If that were the case, assuming a linear power increase as you lower restriction, then a base TL would gain 28-42 whp going from the stock 900 cell cats to the HFC's. And that isn't happening. I'd be willing to bet the difference between the HFC's and PCD's is somewhere around 3-4 whp.
i think with the UR crank pulley and bigger intake/injectors this dude can see an easy 310whp...
#153
Burning Brakes
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again they didn't port match anything because the stock J35 runners match up perfectly to the 3.7 manifold. Same diameter.
The runners were left entirely alone, as were the outlets on the bottom of the intake manifold.
I do have a UR crank pulley on the car, by the way.
I think we need to also keep in mind that Sonnick's gains were on the Accord, and while both cars have a j-series engine, I would expect there are differences in the stock IM's between both cars - lots of Honda manifolds across different J-series platforms bolt up just fine, but that doesn't mean stock to stock they have the same flow inside. But we both gained power on that even without PnP, so it's the internals of the IM and the larger opening that make power, but I would assert that my type-s is already far more opened up than his Accord was stock for stock.
As a result, my gains aren't going to be as high, necessarily. Not to mention there's no tuning going on here, and the ECU's are different. We don't have enough empirical data to suggest that the ECU's would respond the same, or if mine would be any better. I would guess the TL-S is far more tuned for performance from the factory than the Accord would be, so I wouldn't expect to see as massive of a gain on the TL-S, without additional tuning.
The runners were left entirely alone, as were the outlets on the bottom of the intake manifold.
I do have a UR crank pulley on the car, by the way.
I think we need to also keep in mind that Sonnick's gains were on the Accord, and while both cars have a j-series engine, I would expect there are differences in the stock IM's between both cars - lots of Honda manifolds across different J-series platforms bolt up just fine, but that doesn't mean stock to stock they have the same flow inside. But we both gained power on that even without PnP, so it's the internals of the IM and the larger opening that make power, but I would assert that my type-s is already far more opened up than his Accord was stock for stock.
As a result, my gains aren't going to be as high, necessarily. Not to mention there's no tuning going on here, and the ECU's are different. We don't have enough empirical data to suggest that the ECU's would respond the same, or if mine would be any better. I would guess the TL-S is far more tuned for performance from the factory than the Accord would be, so I wouldn't expect to see as massive of a gain on the TL-S, without additional tuning.
#154
All motor
^ Truth. With that said, my OEM manifold was ported. Maybe the TaL-s manifold flows just as much if not more than my ported manifold. Not sure since, like you said, there are other variables.
#156
Racer
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Gerzand had them both on a flow bench and the type s one flowed 4% more than the 04-06 stock to stock! I'm not sure how significant 4% is though, but its an improvement
https://acurazine.com/forums/car-parts-sale-361/3g-acura-tl-parts-garage-cleanout-845911/
https://acurazine.com/forums/car-parts-sale-361/3g-acura-tl-parts-garage-cleanout-845911/
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3gstealth (10-26-2012)
#158
Home Of The Gemini Method
I know porting the manifold has been mentioned, but may not be feasible due to having to open the manifold.
One thing we used to do when I was deep in the Mustang scene was Extrude Hone the intake manifold. This allows the inside of the manifold to be ported to a degree without opening up the manifold.
One thing we used to do when I was deep in the Mustang scene was Extrude Hone the intake manifold. This allows the inside of the manifold to be ported to a degree without opening up the manifold.
#159
Suzuka Master
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I wouldn't be surprised if the 3.0 A4/5 and 3.2 A3 flow roughly the same, so I'd expect the gains on the base TL to be a little better than the Type-S.
I will admit, I was a little skeptical when Sonnick posted his new dyno. I was a afraid that maybe the dyno calibration had changed or something, but his new trap speeds support the dyno (and then some)!
Just got shipping confirmation from Acura of Peoria (best prices and half price shipping discount) that my ZDX TB shipped. As soon as it comes in, I'm going to measure it and get it right off to maxbore, then order everything else. Should have it all swapped in about three weeks.
I will admit, I was a little skeptical when Sonnick posted his new dyno. I was a afraid that maybe the dyno calibration had changed or something, but his new trap speeds support the dyno (and then some)!
Just got shipping confirmation from Acura of Peoria (best prices and half price shipping discount) that my ZDX TB shipped. As soon as it comes in, I'm going to measure it and get it right off to maxbore, then order everything else. Should have it all swapped in about three weeks.
#160
All motor
^ I don't blame you, I was a bit skeptical too. I was excited about it but recently had my doubts. I'm glad my trip to the drag strip quelled both of our doubts I was going to be upset if I spent all that coin for no gain at the track!