m.t.123

Can anyone give me some insight on this: I have an 05 TL and it is superhcarged by CT engineering. When i accelerate, it does this annoying surging hickup thing. If I mat the pedal it's much better, but when I'm accelerating moderately, it's like it's trying to find the right air/fuel mixture and the result is this choppy acceleration. Has anyone ever had this happen? If so, how did you correct it? Is it the piggy back ACM? Does my ECU need to be reflashed? Mine is an automatic, not sure if that makes a difference. Somebody holla back and lemme know!

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Before I put my hi flow cats on I had some surging. The other issue might be the knock sensor being wired thru the Comptech black box. Did you install yourself?

m.t.123

No, it was installed by an acura dealer. And the knock sensor is no longer wired through the ACM that comptech provides. It's really strange, sometimes it's worse than others. So, now you have no issues at all?

dan.....k

iTrader: (1)

Just give it more gas and it will go away. It usually happens to me during the warmer months of the year. I've been s/c for almost 5 years now and I don't really notice it anymore, but it does still happen every now and then. I believe if you get an FIC and a proper tune the surging will go away.

MAS

iTrader: (3)

Probably a problem with the supercharger. I'll take it off your hands and save you the headache.

hp1kw

LOL don't be that way man. The "surging" issue has been discussed a lot here. I have a 2004 S/C and experience this issue. If you have an exhaust its even worse. My first suggestion would be to disconnect the battery so the computer will "re-learn" your driving style. After you reconnect just drive the crap out of it. I mean hit boost every time, floor it, etc. Strangely doing this raised my stutter from between 2.5k and 3k (very common), up to 3.5k to 4k. Otherwise if you keep the stock CT ACM the only way to avoid it is keep the go pedal down.

Souljah

I would doublecheck to see if the knock sensor ISN'T wired.

NSXCessive

Just go my CT-E s/c installed a few days ago. I was experiencing the CEL P0325 Knock Sensor code right off the bat. Cleared the code, drove 20ft and it came right back. I removed the knock Pin-B6 Blue/Red out of the ACM & routed back into the factory ECU and CEL has not returned.

Right after I was able to run the car down the street and noticed some slight surging in 2500~3500rpm range. Double checked the installation and couldn't find anything wrong.

Used kit I received was missing a snap ring on the end of the pulley to keep the plastic spacer in place against the mount the drive shaft. But the s/c blower and drive shaft comes pre-assembled from CT-E so they maybe missed putting in there, or maybe the previous owner removed it?

I called CT-E and spoke to both Ryan & Nate who promptly sent out a replacement snap ring which I'm still waiting to arrive. They both assured me that routing the knock back to the factory ECU was the proper thing to do, they should have updated the install instructions, also noted the surging is normal under light acceleration 15~20% throttle.

There was no ACM update from original tune supposedly 2005>+. According to Nate the problem with the car going from open to closed loop modes they could never tune it properly. There was mention of Hondata flash but not sure if they still do that service on the TL. Since my car at 5AT I noticed it a couple times since the install last week. We see how it goes over time next step for me is to install an AFR & Boost gauge to help monitor that I do not lean the car out. Probably more of a precaution on my part so I can visually see the AFR under boost, but I'm sure it will be fine as the Comptech/CT-E S/C kit has been out for years now.

There is lots of discussions here over the years search is your friend!

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/s-c-acm-knock-sensor-problem-cel-751955/

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/supercharger-acm-problem-644784/#post10008787

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/supercharger-lag-637629/#post9189712

Comptechtl2367

I am installing a S/C soon too. i am glad i found this! Ill just not hook up the red/blue wire and leave it original and i will be good to go correect?

NSXCessive

What year is your car? Mine is an '05 Anthracite 5AT, as far as I understand you do not need to connect the B6 knock tap. I wish I knew this before so I didn't cut the wires. There are people here also that have the knock filter connected without problems must be a percentage out there not affected. Nat@CT-E said they originally planned on using the knock filter, but decided later wasn't needed. They should have removed from the install instructions.

You love it once installed, I'm loving the extra power now, she whines like crazy WOT from 3K to reline.

Comptechtl2367

I cant wait to hear that wine! Sucks its in storage till spring but now i have a winter project!
Its a 06 AM 5at

m.t.123

Hey guys...well, I must tell you that I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one with this freakin problem. I too have spoke to Nate and Ryan at CT Eng. and those guys are such a huge help, always willing to offer advise and help out. My TL is also put away for the winter. What I'm going to do is maybe reflash the ECU in the spring, put my damn 19's back on (Axis shines, very clean ;-) and classy) and drive the heck out of it, like one of you guys suggested.

As for you hp1kw, yes I do have the Comptech exhaust. And as for you MAS, nice try dawg...but...I don't think so ;-)

That knock sensor issue is over for me, just don't splice it, leave it alone.

I had heard from Nate at CT Eng. that AEM had or is developping an ACM that's tuneable and could perhaps help with this surging issue, anyone else hear about this?

I must say though, if I'm at a stop sign and I put down about 70% throttle to go, that S/C TL screaches and gets up and movin like a freak, it's kind scary sometimes...love it.

Holla back fellas.

m.t.123

Oh yeah, dan....k, or to anyone, what is an FIC? Fuel injector cleaner?

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

The surge is due to the ACM trying to add more fuel. The factory ECU sees the extra fuel (< 14.7:1) by polling the primary O2 sensors and leans out the mixture in a very non-linear fashion. The reason it clears up when mashing the throttle is because the car then goes in to open-loop mode. You can pretty much do anything you want in the tune once the car enters open-loop mode and it will not attempt to fight it.

Your best bet is going to pick up an AEM F/IC and make sure that it's wired to control the factory O2 sensors (among all of the other sensors of course). Search the AEM forums and you'll find a post by FLFelon (spelling?) which outlines how to make the proper connections for O2 control.

After installing the F/IC, you'll need to bring it to a shop and have it professionally tuned.

Comptechtl2367

FIC= Front Mount Intercooler... Which i hear is pointless, and when running such low boost you will get a bit of a lag.

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Umm... no.

FMIC = Front Mount Intercooler
AEM F/IC = AEM's piggy-back fuel and ignition controller - http://www.aemelectronics.com/engine...oller-f-ic-12/

NSXCessive

bmeyer has hit it on the nose. I've been looking into this as well you'd have to purchase the AEM F/IC $611.50 + Extension harness 30-2986 Automatic right now $163.51 or 30-2986C Manual right now $147.67 transmission unless you want to hack your factory wiring and who ever wants to do that?

Then get it all wired correctly setup, and then tuned according to your mods. Expect most shop to be around $700-1000 tuning, and then the cost of the F/IC + Ext harness you might be able to shop around to find it cheaper. So lets say for around 1400~1500 bux your surging might be fixed?

Also you might need an AFR and Boost gauge to tune the car correctly, or at least help aid the tuner to set the car up, and you can visually keep an eye on the AFR your self while driving. So there is another few hundred bux there too. I've been looking into PLX Devices Kiwi + AFR + Boost as an option and use my ipod touch to monitor the values.

I did ask Nate about the AEM F/IC last week he did mention they have has customers tried that route and still had surging problems? Maybe wasn't setup correctly maybe AEM has more info on this as well for our TL's?

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Actually, the F/IC-6 is ~$365 + ~$165 for the AEM extension harness (DO NOT GET THE BOOMSLANG HARNESS. It's made of much cheaper components and is prone to failure.) + ~$250 for tuning = $780. Those are real-world numbers BTW from looking back at some of my receipts. Though you can definitely save some cash by wiring it yourself if it's something you're comfortable doing. (It's not for the feint of heart) It'll be another $125 to have it sent out and wired up otherwise.

NSXCessive, I can only assume that those few F/IC customers to which Nate is referring did not have the unit setup to control the O2 sensors as that's been a fairly recent development by myself and others. The unit has the capability to eliminate the surge, but only at the hands of a skilled tuner and through monitoring an external AFR gauge as well as an OBD-II scanner to read the long/short-term fuel trims on a regular basis and making the necessary corrections.

It frustrates me that CT does nothing to rectify this well-known issue. It would take maybe another $50 in parts to add the functionality to the current ACM and a few thousand in R&D.

NSXCessive

Opps my mistake I was looking at the FIC-8 the FIC-6 is $365. I do have some experience with the F/IC yes maybe the guys Nate was referring to as well didn't know it comes equipped with an O2 sensor skewing option helps retain your maps but its right in the install manual though lol

I'm located an hour outside Toronto Canada most AEM certified turners here are a bit more here anywhere from $100~200ish per hour including Dyno time than the U.S counterparts per hour, so I guess its entirely in the hands of the tuner for sure and how much time spent figuring out the F/IC and how it works best with said factory ECU. Most tuners here well versed in EMS, obviously way to go but not so much for ODBII. Your 'tune' will only be as good as the one doing the work, assuming there are no problems coming dyno tune time, and you might need to return a few times after the initial tune to have it tweaked correctly each time costing you a bit more to get it right.

I agree I just installed my CT-E charger and they could have done a better job on the ACM unit. Maybe they were trying to keep costs down, but honestly who drives around WOT all the time, mine surges around the low 2500~3500rpm of normal driving conditions and speeds. As I'm starting to learn they knowingly knew the problem was there going between open and closed loop modes, but guess because cars didn't blow up there isn't a problem to resolve in their eyes?

c2pid

iTrader: (12)

hey b....

glad to see you're chipping in anything going on with that 'black box'?

OP: you'll facing another 'problem' right away...closed-loop tuning

Comptechtl2367

This thead makes me a bit nervous. I am a perfectionist so i can forsee another ~800 in tuning cost to get it to run correctly. you would think when you pay 4500+ you would get a quality kit with tuning software to match!

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

^^^ You would think/hope! I had this issue and ended up getting the AEM FIC and methanol injection and I no longer experience the surging.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Where's IHC?!?!?!?!?

He's been saying this as long as I have been a member here.

c2pid

iTrader: (12)

the fic is all nice during open looped. how are you managing the closed-loop? i would guess that majority of the drivers drives in closed-loop 80-90% of the time...that may cause an issue.

m.t.123

"the fic is all nice during open looped. how are you managing the closed-loop? i would guess that majority of the drivers drives in closed-loop 80-90% of the time...that may cause an issue."

That's a good question boys, for those of you who have used this AEM fic, did it eliminate ALL of the surging, at all RPM's, even during moderate acceleration?

NSXCessive, I'm also just outside Toronto and I've been speaking to Joe at Altech Performance in Toronto. He seems to know his stuff about tuning and was mentioning this AEM piggy back, which apparently does not require any cutting of wires. Where and how do I get my hands on one of these AEM units? And do you eliminate or disgard the CT-E ACM all together when you get the AEM unit?

Does anyone know?

m.t.123

And Comptechtl2367, get a real bike...like an 07 GSXR 750... ;-) Lol.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I lost almost all my surging after I installed the hi flow cats and cat back. I felt it was more of an issue if the car was heatsoaked and may times was the knock sensor pulling timing. The Fic maybe the better way to run FI but many of us ran the ACM and no meth for a long time with no issues. 93 octane and meth with no tune would be nice but I ran on 91 no meth for 30k with no problems. I didn't beat on the car but I used the power often. I'm not sure of how other supercharged TL's run but I couldn't stay on the gas very long anyway with the way the car pulled. The set up is made for short burst of speed and with the power it makes that's all you can do safely.

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

I've never managed the closed-loop but still don't have any surging issues. 95% of the time I drive pretty conservative on the street.

IIRC, before the FIC, I would notice the surging when I floor the car. I didn't recall the surging that much during normal driving.

Comptechtl2367

@ m.t.123... My friend has one, its been through 2 head gaskets and still has nothing on my ZX6R. :-) But to be fair its our slut, we all ride it like it owes us money!

Apnorm: Are you saying you have the front mount? did you feel any power gain or loss by adding it?

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

If you're referring to an intercooler....no. I have the AEM F/IC (Fuel/Ignition Controller).

NSXCessive

Honestly nothing to worry about, I was nervous couple weeks ago. Been driving it for a week now & just did a 2hrs long drive with no problems so far. Well other than a missing snap ring purchased used but probably missing during production, and the surging or what feels like slight hesitation in the 2500~3500rpm mark in random moments. You may not even experiencing the problem as bad as some others, mine seems quite pronounced on my 5AT I'm sure it would be worse on a manual car. So far learning to adapt my driving style to help avoid it a bit more throttle and let off.

Soon to install AEM or PLX kiwi, Wifi AFR & Boost Gauges to keep an eye on it in case it leans out under WOT.

I have the F/IC installed on another car, it doesn't surge as bad but it sometimes does weird stuff switching from Open to Closed loop functions but I wait till the car is up to temp before applying amounts of boost. I'm not running meth, but will be attempting to inter-cooling it later see how that goes.

Do you think lowering the intake temps make the surging go away completely? I'm interested in this as well.

Yes you cannot manage in open loop impossible to do so, and yes ACM does fine when in closed loop just like the F/IC would do properly tuned.

I believe the F/IC isn't the 100% correct solution because you cannot manage open looping fuel ignition timing under boost. That is until AEM provides an EMS OBDII capable of doing drive-by-wire & replacing the factory ECU. What does the Hondata flash do then?

I do think however the F/IC will fine tune your fuel trims, and ignition timing for the mods on your car to make good reliable power. Making it custom which I'm sure CT-E/Comptech just drew a line across the board for ACM tuning making it plug & play based of a stock car + their intake, S/C, with maybe exhaust on it.

Not familiar with Altech I went to Maguns in Concord probably one of, if not best AEM tuner in Ont. This guy tunes cars we dream about, not to mention his race car. See his site http://magnusmotorsports.com/

The AEM F/IC is the piggyback and would replace the CT-E ACM unit. With the optional extension harness it might not need any cutting at all, or if it does it would be in the ext harness portion. My other car was 100% plug & play with the ext harness.

Magnus charged me $700 to Dyno Tune the F/IC which was a deal because I have some prior dealings with them. Out of curiosity what did Altech quote charging you to tune the F/IC? Seems our U.S friends are getting it tuned for more than half of what we are paying here. I ran my car stock to put down a baseline and make sure everything was working before installing the S/C + mods. Will return in spring when all work is complete for another few passes on the dyno.

You can buy the F/IC from pretty much any dealer in the area, I found going states side was cheaper, or direct from AEM $365 + cost of ext harness. Here is one for sale locally in GTA area on Kijiji http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehi...AdIdZ236588991


I'm running 94 Octane here, car is great for short bursts and WOT to redline love the whine! I will be installing a CT-E cat back Exhaust, and RV6 v3 J-Pipe next and emissions are strict in Ontario, Canada so no plans to do the PCD's maybe if there is a high flow cat avail that will pass emissions, so with that said my daily driver must pass emissions testing here. What high flow cats are you running?

Do you think that my future mods will help the surging by not pulling timing away? If so how will it pull timing when in open loop mode? Maybe lowering the intake temps will help the surging problem as well? Anyone intercooled their car yet?

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Actually, you have some information backwards here...

closed-loop = The vehicle uses feedback from various sensors to closely monitor and adjust fuel trims to maintain a ~14.7:1 AFR. This is the mode which is causing the problems in nearly all forced-induction cars. In our vehicles, this is where 90% of your driving happens.

open-loop = The vehicle does NOT alter the fuel trims based on sensor feedback. The car basically uses a static table to send a specific amount of fuel to the engine. Most likely based off of RPM and engine load. Our vehicles do not enter open-loop mode until nearly WOT.

The fueling under closed-loop CAN be managed with the F/IC. That's what my post above regarding the O2 skew functionality is talking about. It adds or subtracts current via a tapped wire from the O2 sensors. That tricks the factory ECU into thinking that the vehicle is actually running too lean and adds more fuel for you. There is a sweet-spot when tuning using this feature though... you need to closely monitor your short/long-term fuel trims and make sure that you're always as close to 0.00 as possible. If it's not, that means that the ECU is still seeing either an addition or subtraction of fuel and will attempt to compensate accordingly.

As far as intercooling goes... there was a member here who added a front-mount intercooler to his S/C setup, but unless I'm mistaken, he mentioned that it was basically all for show and the side-effects (pressure drop) of having it installed negated any tangible benefits.

For timing, I'm running a J&S safeguard. I removed the stock knock-sensor, put the supplied (from J&S) Bosch-style sensor in its place, and connected a piezo transducer to the stock harness which keeps the factory ECU happy and thinking that the knock sensor is still connected. This combination gives me the full timing map from the stock ECU (~20*) and lets the J&S unit handle all of the timing retard on a per-cylinder basis.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

The FIC can be had for around $320 if looking around and the harness for $135 shipped. Tuning is a little more than $250 but with all this set up you can tune your car properly and gain some more horsies.

m.t.123

Wow...ok, lots of info. Ok...just so that I'm clear, cuz I'm not getting an intercooler or highflow cats...it sounds like from what I'm hearing, I'm to get this AEM FIC and have the car tuned so that when the car is i the "closed loop" mode (which is most of the time), but i have to get the FIC that can also be tuned to work properly with the O2 sensors? Is that basically it? I won't bother wasting my time with an ECU reflash from Acura then.

What about a Hondata reflash plus the FIC? Or would that reflash be pointless if you get the FIC. Lol, sorry boys, it's just that I've had this problem for so long and it's only now after speaking with you all that I've realized it's a common problem. I just want my car to finally run smooth WITH the supercharger. And as for managing the fuel in open loop mode, I don't have a problem when she's wide open...for the most part.

NSXCessive: Magnus huh? Never heard of him, but may be woth a shot...Joe at Altech also has a race car that he used to drag race...it's an Older Honda CRX, crazy power. However, I didn't ask him about a price for tuning, I'm gonna call him closer to the spring and ask him about the AEM FIC and a tuning price.

Comptechtl2367: Lol, y'all are treatin that gixxer bad man! I do enjoy the Kawasaki's and GSXR's best, not big on CBR's or Yamahas though

hp1kw

Regarding the Hondata flash, I've tried to get it done from Church's and the other shop, but both are not doing it now. If you can get it done let me know where. I'm running 91 octane, meth injection, can't really feel the surging as bad anymore, but with my exhaust (XLR8) I can here it hunting around.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I was running the Pro cat hi flow cats. The stock cats are very restrictive and add a lot of heat to the engine compartment and the engine in general. I went from full stock exhaust to hi flow cats, 3rd cat delete and ATLP quads. So the power I was making doubled and any surging was gone. I think with a stock 3rd cat installed you could pass smog, provided they don't do a good visual.
For the power gain I was planing on pulling them and going to stock for smog.

Comptechtl2367

I am thinking what i will do is run pre cat delete, and get a high flow spun cell 3rd cat. i dont want the loud catless exhaust or the smell! From what i understand from Hi Speed this should get rid or lower the surge issue. Correct?

m.t.123

I think I'm going to start with the AEM FIC in the spring and see how that does. No the hardest part is the waiting. For you guys out ther is California, keep us poor suckers who have to live with real winters posted on your progress with the surging issues.

Anyone with the CT Eng. S/C ever get the smell of coolant after driving the car? Not from the inside of the car but from the outside?

I hate cars

Are you monitoring knock? Might as well start the countdown to a blown engine. You're probably smelling coolant from the exhaust due to a blown headgasket due to not monitoring knock.

Surging is most likely not just from improper AF ratio but from knock retard.

Bmeyer, that safeguard can control timing on a cylinder by cylinder basis? So it's not just a detector but it can actually pull timing in the event of knock? That's some neat stuff!

I hate cars

NSX- you can intercool a roots supercharger but you will have to run a smaller pulley to get the boost back. By design the intercooler cools the air so you get a pressure drop. The car will make the same power with the intercooler but you will be running less boost at the engine. Pre-intercooler boost will be the same as before.