thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

A few quick and concerning observations:


* Turbo inlet sitting right behind radiator: This can't be good for power and/or turbo efficiency. At least you're running WMI...

* Downpipe: Is your charge pipe a larger diameter than the downpipe? Please tell me this is a optical illusion of some sort.

* Lower radiator hose: Is that thing torched at the bottom?

* Wideband sensor: I know it's a fairly common practice to mount them post turbo but this isn't ideal. You're basically allowing more connections between the engine and the sensor for a leak to corrupt its exhaust flow. If you begin to see differences between the primary widebands and this one, try relocating it closer to the engine.

* Is the EGR valve at least disabled in FP?

* Consider replacing those stock (and possibly original?) hose clamps before those things give you grief!

* Love the turbo blanket as well as that wild ass orange color!


Btw, I been curious to ask, who does the E-dyno thing? Dom or Vit I'm assuming? I really need to get some sort of ideal what the current setup I'm on is putting out. I have ZERO time for any long ass waiting line from a real dyno.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Answers in bold green

Dom does all my tuning. He is pretty quick. He tunes at night and can probably get me 3-4 maybe more maps, but I have only been doing a few maps here and there due to my schedule. He has been keeping the car safe, and has worked with me tweaking stuff here and there.

As for E-dyno send me a WOT Map in 3rd gear and a list of your weight, tire size, transmission gearing, and what the Air temp is like. I can get you a baseline edyno. Or if you want you can download the program from here http://www.virtualdyno.net/ . Just make sure you use the same road over and over.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Had to take off my inspire fog lights and I have big gaps. So I am putting speed holes in the foglight covers

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Robert,

How do you have your O2 sensors installed? Are you referring to the bottom pair of stock sensors being located pre-turbo?

I was under the impression that the sensors packaged with aftermarket widebands couldn't take the heat in that location.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

I think Robert is still running an auto so 3rd gear may be a bit more difficult. You can do a 2nd gear pull, but it will be less accurate just due to sample size. 3rd gear is ideal, but can you go WOT without it downshifting?

Some may dismiss e-dynos, but I can say that it's all about accurate data. When the data is correct, the results will be correct. It's doing the same thing as a dyno jet. Calculating horsepower by using the time it takes to accelerate a known mass. In Europe, dynos are called rolling roads. Here, we're replacing the dyno WITH the road. The known mass is your car, rather than a 3000lb drum. In many cases, an e-dyno is MORE accurate than a dynojet, since it's a real world sample of how the engine loads, rather than a dyno.

It's very popular among the AWD crowd as AWD dynos are a bit less commonplace. The popular method years ago was an Excel spreadsheet known as "airboy dyno". Virtual Dyno has simply made it MUCH easier to filter all the noise from the data log.

Here is an e-dyno of my car - red is on the road, blue is the datalog of it on the dyno:



Here is the Dynojet run file from my car:


I tried to scale them as close to the same as possible, but there isn't a way to force a scale, you can just make it wider or narrower. But look at the 1000 rpm increment data points:

3000 RPM - dyno - 109.9
3000 RPM - virtualdyno road log - 115ish?
4000 RPM - dyno - 156
4000 RPM - road - 160
5000 RPM - dyno - 209
5000 RPM - road - 210
6000 RPM - dyno - 237
6000 RPM - road - 236ish?

On the low end, the hp and torque are a bit off but that could be that I was on a slight down hill road, as well as air fuel - look how much richer the dyno pull was vs the road.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I can only go Wot in 5th without tire spin. It would be cool to see how accurate the E- dyno is.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

That's sick, lol. If you're feeling brave, do a 5th gear run to redline and datalog it. I can plug it in to virtual dyno. What's top speed in 5th - 170?

In all seriousness, does the car break loose at any rpm in 3rd? You might not get a full pass from 2000 to 7000, but you might be able to get one from say, 4000 to 7000 if it does eventually hook up. We can toss out any bad data from wheelspin.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Yup, redline in 5th is about 180 MPH, figuring 25 mph per 1000 Rpms at 7200 fuel cut. Don't know I will making that run any time soon. Let me do some data logging to see if I can get a stable 3rd gear run to look at. Working on my camera stand for some runs with video of the gauges.

Why are people using 3rd gear, I have always dynoed in 4th to get the 1:1 ratio?

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Because 4th gear is ~120 mph and pretty much a felony. 3rd gear is about 90 mph. If I was on the dyno I would do 4th gear though.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Felony? You Virginia residents and your crazy laws, lol. My buddy got a ticket one night for 140 in a 60, I swear.

Ya'll can't have radar detectors and guns eitther right? :P

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

We use laser in Cali for traffic enforcement. I see about the 3rd gear runs, good point.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

and you are also in California. Home of the fast and furious. lol So doing 120 mph give them probable cause to look under your hood and then tow your car. My friend got a ticket for his swap motor in his EG6. Cop wrote down "JDM" motor when I lived in california. lol

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Here in SC, I doubt any law enforcement knows what JDM even means, lol. I know the words emissions and catalytic converter are foreign concepts here!

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Yup, I'm running the 5AT and probably won't change. To date, with my current power level, I have had some impressive results with the auto that everyone talks so poorly about. It is the 07-08 TL-S 5AT and is bulked up from the previous 06 and below version. I hate the moderate load shift quality (or lack there of) and sometimes get a 2nd gear hang (anyone else?) but I've learned how to manage these things and feel that it's worthy of remaining. I have gained some recent interest in MegaSquirts "new" MegaShift/MicroTCU automatic transmission controller and feel this combined with an AEM full standalone may bring this car to increased competitiveness on the street. With these new TCU's, you are blessed with the ability of increasing shift firmness and time by managing the PWM pressure solenoid as well as the trim on the shift solenoids.

I literally live near a 1.5 mile bridge on the outskirts of the city where all my tuning hits are done. I can alllllllllmost hit the end of my limiter on that beeyotch at 172 mph before having to lift off for the FAST approaching corner! I'm quite sure it could hit an easy 180.

Most of the aftermarket wideband gauge manufacturers use a Bosch sensor that's actually an Oem sensor for many vehicles such as BMW. It's perfectly safe to mount as close to the cylinder head as possible which again should give you the most accurate AFR reading possible. Exhaust gases cool the further they get from the head which and causes it to slow down which means denser exhaust gas readings which CAN/WILL affect the oxygen content that the sensor reads. Though it's a small change, this small difference could be the matter of life and death in an engine riding (unknowingly) on a lean mixture. I actually mounted mine roughly 4-6 inches from the exhaust flange. Two on each head. One for the ECM sampling and another for the AFR gauge.

This is crazy! Are you saying that it IS a felony or comparable to a felony in courts? I am currently 34 years old and due to many, many, MANY traffic violations from the 2.5 years of owning my beloved Yamaha R1 (that I miss dearly), I haven't had a license in over 2 years and still have nearly 3 years remaining before I'm eligible to receive it again. There were several occasions where I was doing well above 100 mph and seen police look at me but literally give up before the chase even started. I realized that unless I got rid of it, I'd either never see a drivers license again or my family due to losing my life from stupidity. Best damn decision I've ever made TBH. Though they are unparalleled in excitement and adrenaline, there are much safer ways to have fun in this life.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Cool, thank you. I'll try putting some extra bungs on both pipes as well.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Depending on state laws it could be a felony . Is Driving Over 100 MPH a Felony Offense? | DrivingLaws.org

6spd-GERCO

You need Hondata Traction Control or sticky drag tires.

Let's all be honest driving a tuned up Honda makes us a nice target to the Police. Although the TL doesn't seem to have to much of a bad rap as a civic or integra with fart cannon on it. Knock on wood I haven't been pulled over in my TL. It might be worth seeing if there are any of those mile run events that seem to be growing in popularity.

Safe data logging everyone

UTAH TSX

Install the bung downstream from the turbo The high exhaust pressure before the turbo interferes with the lambda measurement and the high exhaust temperatures encountered there can damage the sensor.
Aem recommends 18" from the turbo.in my installation manual

Innovative recommends
On TURBO CHARGED vehicles:
Install the bung downstream from the turbo before the catalytic converter. The high exhaust pressure before the turbo interferes with the lambda measurement and the high exhaust temperatures encountered there can damage the sensor.

I've had problems mounting the stock sensors to far from the head at idle it was always hunting from lean to rich it would never stabilize, so on my sons TL we mounted the stock sensors in the stock position and the AEM 18 inches post turbo as per AEM recomendation, on my tsx the stock sensor is off by about 1/2 point A/F at 12 PSI and goes a full point off at 22 PSI they are both mounted post turbo

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

3 years on my widebands with matching ecm values. That's BS, sorry.

Edit: guess they would match since they're installed in same location BUT I'm not convinced as many oem manufacturers use the same location for o2 sensor locations on boosted setups.

UTAH TSX

This is from this morning on my way to work at cruise it's close but under boost it is always off always never close to the stock sensors

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

That's exactly what I was saying about showing a leaner mixture than it actually is in my previous post. I just don't see how reading the exhaust gases AFTER they've cooled is better and more accurate.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

The issue we are having is that our primary o2's are located in different positions due to the differences in the turbo kits were using. My primary's are in the stock location 1 inch from the head and the secondary o2's are mounted on defoulers that skew the readings. I would think OEM applications have the o2 more appropriately located for turbo applications to preserve the sensor. I'm looking into using my AEM wide band sensor to connect to the Hondata, to get a more accurate o2 reading for the ECU to use. I'm running right now with both o2's shut off and while in boost is amazing, out of boost could be smoother. I go back and forth with how smooth it should be since the car is a race car pretending to be a street car.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

There are no spare inputs on our ECU's. Is there enough extra pressure caused by the turbo to cause problems with the stock widebands?

UTAH TSX

My son used the ELD pin or the coolant temp sensor 2 cant remember witch one on his TL I will ask him to post

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

That is the issue at the moment, Utah type-s is using the ECT 2 input and changing it over on the hondata to read it as a lamda signal. I don't think we have this this input on the J32's. I'm not sure if the pressure pre turbo is too much for the sensors, this is what I was told by my tuner as to why my o2's are switched off and the tune is throttle or something else based. I wanted to have Dom fine tune my tune but, the o2's are need to be working for him to do that. I'm also at a point where I don't want to damage the engine and do any more builds on this car.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Oh really! And the maps can use this or is it just for datalogging.

You should have that input as well if you swapped in an 07/08 ECU. I've have an 08 Type S MT ECU and I know it has it.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

how is your car tuned with o2 sensor off???

I bought new O2 sensor just for the turbo build since my old one had about 110-120k on them.

6spd-GERCO

From what I have read it's not the temperature difference that's the issue with whether it's after or below the the turbine, it's the pressure the sensor sees that changes the reading. There isn't sensitivity to pressure at stoichiometric but the further away from stoichiometric the more pressure sensitive the sensor becomes, so rich is richer/ lean is leaner. Moving it after the turbine improves accuracy at high load. The closer the sensor is to the turbine the less delay there will be, better transient response time. I would rather have a slower accurate measurement at high load than a quick reacting inaccurate sensor. I am sure OEM's are up to some sort of emissions game, keep one sensor close to get good fuel economy out of boost. Or maybe ignore the values at high load and switch to another sensor, or take into account the error from countless hours of testing.

6spd-GERCO

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

If the o2s are turned off, that means its a strictly open loop tune. Basically, the car never enters closed loop and never targets stoich (14.7:1) when cruising. Whatever the map is set to, is what the car is going to run. It won't use the o2 sensor to 'tweak' or try and keep the car stoich at part throttle loads.

It's fairly a common switch on a strictly drag car where you don't care about driveability or part throttle performance or mileage at all. I don't care for it in any car that is street driven, since it's really a work around for a lazy tuner.

The car will switch to open loop at high load/wot which is when you WANT it to run the map you set.

If you put a sensor post turbo, you wouldn't want to use the wideband into the hondata for that, since it won't match the other stock placement. Perhaps sending that output to both o2 inputs would solve it, but it might cut the voltage in half.

Many widebands have a pressure compensation as well. A google search shows that NGK wide band sensors can be placed pre-turbo while Bosch LSUs cannot. I think the Bosch is THE most popular sensor. AEM claims that their 4 channel UEGO can be placed pre-turbo with their backpressure kit, and it uses LSU sensors, so the first info may not be accurate.

Turn those o2s on and restore OEM driveability!

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

\\

Just browsed the AEM 4 channel controller. Has an optional back pressure sensor for pre-turbo applications.....expensive

Sorry we hijacked your thread.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

AHHH!!!! I did not know that. Learned something new today But what if you weather goes from 100*F to -20*F will the car be able to compensate enough with not using the O2 sensor as guides?

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

The temp. compensations for IAT aren't related to Air fuel I didn't think. I think they just pull timing based on intake temp and engine coolant temp. o2s are ignored at wot anyways. THe problem with an open loop tune is that they are ignored ALL the time. Makes driveability kind of poopy.

UTAH TSX

Quote: Screaminz28
If you put a sensor post turbo, you wouldn't want to use the wideband into the hondata for that, since it won't match the other stock placement. Perhaps sending that output to both o2 inputs would solve it, but it might cut the voltage in half.

Hondata input from post turbo is for datalog only it won't affect the closed loop they only look at the stock sensors
And you for sure want to turn the stock sensors on and run closed loop, I'm sure DOM will do that, anyone with any tuning experience will do that always and it makes tuning easier anyway

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

The best scenario is what we did with Utah type-s car. Stock O2 for close loop and a more precise O2 for boost mode...And the added O2 needs to be calibrated in the flashpro to match the readings from the O2 gauge vs those in the flashpro...Also please note that the stock O2 vs the AEM one wont read the same especially in boost mode even if they are place next to each other. Hondata as made the O2 correction table for the Kseries guys to match what a precise O2 would read vs the stock one in open loop but they did not do it for us... I asked before but since I was the only one asking... I cannot win this fight alone

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Does this mean there are 2 closed loop maps or is the more precise o2 readings from the AEM unit just to tune the open loop map?

Looks like I need to connect my wideband analog output to ECT2......

And Dom, where do you suggest we place the primary, secondary and aftermarket sensors?

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

It's all done in the same maps, it's just un option/settings used in the flashpro to use different O2 for close or open loop...

Primary should be at stock location, secondary disable in the flashpro :P and as for the aftermarket one it should be closest to the stock ones that you can use (of course where the pipes merges to a single pipe) I think pre or post turbo does not make a difference but the closest you are from the heads means better precision for tuning...

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Using the wideband input on the ECT2 or ELD is just for datalogging, but couldn't you tap that into the stock o2 sensor and use it rather than the stock sensor? The stock sensor is a 5 wire wideband, but I haven't tried it yet.

Secondary o2s can be eliminated from discussion completely as they are merely for catalyst efficiency and should be gone in any aftermarket turbo setup.

I'd think that aftermarket wideband being 18in post turbo is probably the most common scenario in general. I believe Buicks have it pre-turbo in the manifold though (where's Matt when you need him?!).

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

since we cannot change the 0-5v calibration of the stock O2 sensor in the flashpro i'd say we cant but that would be the ideal scenario for sure!