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DIY turbo idea for cheap? LOL

 
Old 05-27-2015, 09:41 PM
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DIY turbo idea for cheap? LOL

I have too much time on my hands since school is out. So decided to build a turbo kit for fun for cheap. lol



Just a though. I was thinking about build my own turbo kit from a variety of parts to decrease the cost since the cheapest used J&R kit is around 5000 bucks used.

Here my thought. Using richie PCD (370) from the head down I would cut up this ebay downpipe from the gen6 accord/CL and that would be my manifold.

So cut this mofo and use the flanges to weld onto the PCD. Will need to cut, bend, and weld the exhaust down pipe since it doesn't have a spot for the external wastegate to exit.

~179

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201357511425?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

From there the turbo would be a Borg Warner S362SX ~800
or a turbonetics T-62 ~795

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300941700532?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231015177889?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
intercooler would be this and you gotta play Tetris to get it all to fit. ~197

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391053916897?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Blow off valve pipe connector thingy ~13

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TYPE-S-RS-2-5-ALUMINUM-TURBO-BLOW-OFF-VALVE-FLANGE-PIPE-PIPPING-ADAPTOR-SILVER-/190589634278?hash=item2c600706e6&vxp=mtr
HKS blow off valve ~84

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HKS-UNIVERSAL-BLACK-BLOW-OFF-VALVE-BOV-SQV-SSQV-3-III-OEM-OE-Free-USA-Shipping-/151567772197?hash=item234a24aa25&vxp=mtr
AEM boost controller ~320

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AEM-TRU-BOOST-Gauge-Type-Electronic-Turbo-Boost-Controller-p-n-30-4350-/231507120730?hash=item35e6e6525a&vxp=mtr
or AEM boost controller with AFR ~470

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AEM-2-Gauges-Combo-UEGO-WideBand-A-F-Ratio-EBC-Turbo-Tru-Boost-Controller-/281308055968?hash=item417f4449a0&vxp=mtr
For the turbo oil lines and what not you can go to Jegs.com or similar site to pick up the remainer.

RDX 410cc injectors ~350 bucks

Xenocron Tuning: RDX 410cc Injector Set of 6

total 2313 so far not including msc stuff like 2 step colder ark plugs, oil cooling line, hondata flashpro, oil bung for drainage, etc.


or you can say F it and get a used twin turbo set up. for around 3k and be limited to 350whp from this dude

Twin Turbo set up, Wilwood BBK, sub enclosure - Honda Accord Forum : V6 Performance Accord Forums
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:57 PM
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Sounds sweet. This should be a lot of fun.
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:03 PM
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Have you ever read the feedback going around on that OBX setup when it first came out? Lots of pissed off people who wasted their money on that crap. Actually, being non-biased for the forums sake, there was ONE person who said the complete opposite of everyone else and talked highly of it. If I remember correctly, it was in a yellow car...possibly a Teg???

But its obvious that even I considered the idea so I'm not knocking you brother. Lmao
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hi speed View Post
Sounds sweet. This should be a lot of fun.
Thanks man your car inspire me. I am planning to get another HDS unit and I will let you borrow it for free if you want to get that hondata working.


@yungone501

hahaha yeah. I read all of those ebay turbo kit stuff. In actuality the piping and manifold is what I really need. The turbo and other stuff will be high quality where it needs to be. The piping can just corroded and die in a year and I will be happy since I can get the specs and throw the dimension on Solidworks and reverse engineer all the specs on to quality steel.

Just toying with the idea. for now.

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Old 05-28-2015, 12:13 AM
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Thanks that would help a lot, I'm going to get all the pieces together to do the change over this summer and I will get in touch with you. I have been driving by myself so much I felt like the car was not pulling very well. I am so use to just putting it in 5th on the freeway to build load and flying. That was great meeting you and your brother.

Originally Posted by thisaznboi88 View Post
Thanks man your car inspire me. I am planning to get another HDS unit and I will let you borrow it for free if you want to get that hondata running.
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:29 AM
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I would skip the OBX kit - I was going to go that route, but you will end up hacking it up so much you'd be better off making your own version.

You can get Prank racing flanges that meet the PCDs for $60 per pair. Then buy a DIY 2.5in exhaust kit from summit for $150 - it comes with some U bends, 45s, and 90s. You'll need a turbo flange - CXRacing makes a V-band to T4 cast piece, or I think Columbia River sells premade forms so you can just weld direct.

I'm going the el-cheapo route on my setup - aluminized pipe and NO brand names. I see no need to use stainless - I put so few miles on my car and it's a $2500 car - not worth dumping tons of cash into it. I think its absurd with these thousand dollar exhausts that people buy here...talk about crazy.

Instead of that intercooler setup - the core is VERY tiny - this version is much bigger:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330666349041?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It's $100 more once you add in a piping kit, but cooler is better for our motors so worth spending the money. I also looked into the one like Utah has (and I think the J&R kit uses), but I want to try and avoid a dual pass if possible.

I would avoid a turbonetics turbo at all cost - in fact, I'd run a CXRacing or generic China turbo WELL before I ever ran a turbonetics. They just aren't worth the money. I plan to experiment with different generic china turbos - mostly GT35 variants, just trying to figure out which A/R I like. The .62 is the most common and cheapest on Ebay, but there is a .82 you can find if you look long enough and I think it would be better suited to our engine. I want a v-band exhaust and also a ported shroud - finding all three can be tough.

CXRacing does make one with all of them, but its a ball bearing unit. Im torn on using a ball bearing because of the need for a restrictor, etc etc. Plus, that turbo is about $450 - the journal bearing turbos are about $250. You can also buy a legit Garret CHRA for about $400 and turn a China GT35 into a ball bearing GT35 for less than $700.

No EBC for me - too much of an enticement to play with it. Ken - you forgot a wastegate tho - so don't forget that or things go BOOM right away.

I plan to get the kit on ~ 8psi and tune it and make sure it works. I'd like to see about 350whp on 93 from that which I think is easily doable, plus no need for massive fuel upgrades. Once that is all set, then turn it up on E85. I was debating buying a junkyard J32 or J35 (with 10:1 CR) and using a thicker head gasket to lower compression a bit more. If I do that, I will also widen the ring end gap, but I may see how it runs as is or blow it up first before going that route. They even make China J32 rods now. If ONLY they had cheap forged pistons!

I would use a legit walbro - I see the supposed ones on ebay for 20 bucks, but I'm skeptical of that. I cant find cheap injectors so when i want more power - that is a real expense - probably go with the fuel injector connection ones gerzand recommended.

I was tempted to go with Sunni's setup but damn a twin turbo setup just seems crowded in our engine bay - and I think the turbos are a bit too small. Yes there are 2, but GT28s are pretty small to me.

I already have the flashpro so good there - I'm on a stock clutch with 100K+? miles lol so that will definitely need to be replaced. I will probably just grab a LUK flywheel, and new clutch kit and use the P2R disc (pretty sure that's just a K20 unsprung six puck disc and they are 80 bucks cheaper elsewhere).I REALLY want to make the K20 clutch/flywheel combo work instead since it opens up a LOT more clutch options, but that's a whole different project.

Without the flashpro or clutch, I think I had tallied up less than 2K to get going. Granted things can spiral out of control, but I firmly believe that the import world is full of brand name nut huggers.

We rednecks in SC do stuff on the cheap - we went 10.30s in a Fox body for less than $5k - car included.

I have lots of domestic friends running china turbos with no issues, even generic wastegates.
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Hi speed View Post
Thanks that would help a lot, I'm going to get all the pieces together to do the change over this summer and I will get in touch with you. I have been driving by myself so much I felt like the car was not pulling very well. I am so use to just putting it in 5th on the freeway to build load and flying. That was great meeting you and your brother.
Hi Speed- are you not tuned on your hondata? I thought you had it running and tuned - or is that on the MS3?

Ken - what happened to your HDS you had? Didn't you also get a Fly100?
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:13 AM
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@ screaminz my friend bought the HDS off me. The fly100 never came back after I rented it out to another member. Still down 100. I need to reprogram my other keys also since I left them in my parents house.

Anyways I was looking at the china turbo also. only issue is that I would probably have to get it sent in to get rebuild to make sure it is balance and the bears and seals are good. I rather not have it disintergrate and get sucked in the motor. I also think that the Borg Warner one is also good just because is spools just as fast as the gt35. A lot of oem application use them
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by thisaznboi88 View Post
@ screaminz my friend bought the HDS off me. The fly100 never came back after I rented it out to another member. Still down 100. I need to reprogram my other keys also since I left them in my parents house.

Anyways I was looking at the china turbo also. only issue is that I would probably have to get it sent in to get rebuild to make sure it is balance and the bears and seals are good. I rather not have it disintergrate and get sucked in the motor. I also think that the Borg Warner one is also good just because is spools just as fast as the gt35. A lot of oem application use them
If you spend a bit more - On3 turbos have a great rep for a China turbo - no need to rebuild or balance. Master Power turbos are pretty popular as well, but both might be too big for us with their smallest ones.

Sucks to hear about the Fly100 -
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by screaminz28 View Post
Hi Speed- are you not tuned on your hondata? I thought you had it running and tuned - or is that on the MS3?

Ken - what happened to your HDS you had? Didn't you also get a Fly100?
I'm running the MS3 right now, I should have switched when I had the heads swapped, instead of paying $700 to tune the MS3. Things were going wrong left and right at the time and I decided to wait.
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:48 PM
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Do you not like the MS3? I got the hondata simply because MS3 is no longer available as a kit - The MS3 Pro is BAAAD. I'd MUCH prefer a standalone to Hondata. However, I think the best of both worlds is what TurboXS used to have - the UTEC. It was a full standalone that only came into play at a certain threshold - all closed loop was handled by the stock ecu. You could set a map threshold, tps threshold, and then it was full control over ecu - it was really ahead of its time.
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:44 PM
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I think it would be great to do your own turbo setup. There are just a couple "rules".


Keep the turbo as close to the heads as possible for best spool and transient response. It looks like we might have the room for a pair of twins hung off of each head through an adaptor but of course this greatly adds to the expense.


I agree with using regular steel exhaust piping at first to save money and potentially redoing it later. I want to reinforce, you will eventually burn through mild steel anywhere before the turbo. After the turbo you should be good. If you're looking to cut cost, definitely use stainless before the turbo and mild steel after.


The turbos you selected are fine. My father went mid 10s with that little 61 running on the ragged edge. It depends on what your priorities are but if you want a very responsive street setup vs trying to make super high dyno numbers, you can always go a little smaller. The turbo is the heart of the engine because it will determine the powerband. I've used no less than 14 turbos on just my daily driven 10 second GN over the years. I've learned the hard way that if you're not sure it's always better to go a little smaller.


Any length of exhaust piping before the turbo needs to be sized correctly to not hurt spool but not be a restriction. After the turbo you should use as large of a pipe as you can reasonably fit.


It's hard to go too large on intake piping diameter or even length. It can have an effect on spool in theory but in reality it's not noticeable in the slightest. For 400hp I suggest at least 2.5" plumbing with the length you're going to need but this is one of the rare cases where you're not going to hurt anything by going slightly larger than needed.


The BOV can be added at a later date if money is an issue.


I usually stick with Turbonetics or PTE as the quality and reliability is good. I've gone head to head with Harry at PTE, he's an asshole but they will make any thing you want over there. I might be able to get you wholesale cost on Turbonetics stuff, I can check with my old employer when the time comes.


I made my own intercooler "kit" using a 3" pre-bent exhaust section meant for diesel trucks for $40. It had many different types of bends and worked out really well. I used an off the shelf Ford Powerstroke intercooler that was $170 brand new.


The main thing to keep in mind when choosing an intercooler is most importantly make sure it's going to flow enough air for the desired hp level without being a restriction. If you have the cash, use the bar and plate style, it will be more efficient and you can downsize it if you need to. If you're planning to only run 7-8psi and with any decent turbo, charge air cooling is not going to be a problem. If it ever becomes a problem there's always meth injection. Also keep in mind that if you go with a China turbo, your intercooler will double as a filter and hopefully save the engine from catastrophic turbo failure.


Above all, run a knock guage/detector in addition to AFR. It's more important than AFR and anything else.


I prefer external wastegates but if you're keeping hp in the 400hp range with a decent sized turbo, an internal wastegate will save you money and complexity. The main downside to an internal wastegate once you start making more power is boost creep in the higher gears but there are ways around this.


Keep the drainback tube from the turbo above the oil level in the pan. It comes out in a froth a lot of times and will not drain quick enough that way causing oil to get past the seals and into the engine.


It sounds like you have a good handle on all of the little but significant sub systems that go along with this. The most important thing will be tuning once all is said and done. If possible, learn to tune yourself. A dyno tune should only be used to get in the ballpark. When a turbo engine goes under load on the street, several things change.


I've got a setup that I've never shared because I wanted to get a patent on it but at this point I don't have the time or the money, that I can share that will give near instant spool and always keep the turbo ready to go. I'm surprised after all of these years no one has done it yet but it would be nice to see it in use on another car.
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Old 05-28-2015, 04:09 PM
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@I hate cars

thanks for the information. I am currently running water methanol on my j30 accord to get and it is making 253whp. I would like 350-400whp range while keeping boost down at 6 or below. I really have no idea how strong the piston, rods, ringlands, and etc are on this block. My current compression ratio is around 9.6 to 1 due to the tl-s 89mm combustion chamber and my 86mm bore mismatch.

Would you recommend a s256 borg warner turbo over the s362? http://www.ebay.com/itm/291399056815?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
How about the Chinese turbo? I have read up and have saw that the size of the generic gt35 turbine wheels are actually smaller than stated making the turbo somewhere in between a gt30 and gt35.

as for the piping I am only choosing the OBX/ebay piping to hack up because there are no fabricators here in Charleston, WV that do custom work, and if they did they are very PRO American, rolling coal, and what not. I know the exhaust shop here are willing to just weld stuff together but I think they do MIG and not TIG. I would have to come back to California to have everything done right.

As for the intercooler Ideally I want to run the one that does not double back since it loses some efficient do to radiate heat transfer compared to the bar style you were referring to.

For the knock guage/detector protection Youngone (Robert) has recommended me something. And Hispeed also showed me he had a light wire up to detect knock. I still have to do more research since I want this to be a fun daily and not have a blown motor.

As for tuning I already have the hondata flashpro and my car has been fully tuned for N/A. DomGSR-T will be working with me when I decide to do the turbo.

As of right now everything is on the drawing board and further planning will be investigated before I actually start. Main concern is can I build something that is reliable without breaking the bank. The gen7 accord and gen3 TL price are depreciating everyday. So I rather not have the turbo kit cost as much as the car once done.

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Old 05-28-2015, 04:42 PM
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If you get the OBX turbo piping, since it is stainless, you'll want to make sure that even if it is mig welded, that it is back purged, which isn't very common in muffler shops. Some of them don't even use gas when mig welding at all. If you don't backpurge it, it will "sugar" on the backside of the weld, which in our case would be the pipe heading to the turbo. You have to backpurge because the oxygen will contaminate the stainless so an inert gas is needed to prevent that.

That's the reason I suggested mild steel, or aluminized steel for making it - no need to backpurge. Well, that and it's cheaper. on vsixpee, 00SuperchargedV6 said he had the OBX kit and that it has been so hacked up, that basically nothing remains of it except the header part- he's got an A2 motor.

Matt, would you even recommend a China turbo with an internal wastegate? I know the X02 wastegates are pretty reliable and cheap. I'd be afraid of the internal wastegate failing on the cheapo turbo, as well as boost creep as you mentioned.

It's interesting to see your recommendation of going smaller rather than larger when unsure. Coming from the DSM/Subie arena, these guys LOVE to undersize a turbo, run a lot of boost in the midrange, and then taper on the top end. Honda guys always go big, or waaay too big.
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:48 PM
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I am also in your recommendation Matt.

As for DSM and subbie guys they can run much more boost than us for DD since there blocks were made for it. Honda guys like to run low PSI for DD. That's just my take on it. 9-12 psi for Honda guys vs 30+ for dsm and subbie.

I like where this thread is going so keep it up guys
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by thisaznboi88 View Post
I am also in your recommendation Matt.

As for DSM and subbie guys they can run much more boost than us for DD since there blocks were made for it. Honda guys like to run low PSI for DD. That's just my take on it. 9-12 psi for Honda guys vs 30+ for dsm and subbie.

I like where this thread is going so keep it up guys
Ignore psi - that's a metric that means nothing really. It's a matter of cylinder pressure and airflow - 10 PSI from a GT35 is as much airflow as 20+ psi from a VF30, probably more.

They run high boost pressure because they can and need to - the stock 1G DSM compression ratio is 7.8:1 - yeah SEVEN POIINT EIGHT. Talk about NEEDING boost to get moving. Have you ever driven a 4G63 without the turbo? I have - its a giant turd.

Same with the WRX and STI - they have an 8:1 compression ratio.

I ran 25 PSI on my JDM STI with a VF30, but that is WAY out of the efficiency for that turbo. With a boost control solenoid, I was able to turn it up real high where the turbo was efficient and let it taper down so it wasnt just throwing hot air around with no power gain. It boost torque a lot which that little 2L needed plenty of.

I had a Greddy T67 (in between a GT30 and GT35) - also known as a 25G (some DSM people know the 16G and 20G) and 25 PSI on that would be 450 whp+ vs 25PSi from the VF30 which was barely 300 whp.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:17 PM
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Got ya. That makes sense. So what do you think us a good turbo for 350- 400 whp range with a broad power band? Not looking to break record here.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:53 PM
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My mother had a 92 Laser 2.0 turbo when we growing up that created NO boost. I remember driving it several times thinking I would probably die if I didn't have at least 1/8 mile between any car I pulled out in front of and her car! Hahaha....it sucked.
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:30 PM
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I would save your money and build your own plumbing kit for the turbo, which looks to be the direction the others are pointing you in. Go to a local community college and sign up for a welding program, that way you can learn to weld properly, save yourself from some of the headaches of trial by fire learning and get access decent welding equipment and shop. Weldings a skill that like anything takes time to learn. Also, read up on the subject matter, Street Turbocharging by HPBooks ISBN: 978-1-55788488-6, I used this book to get background when looking at going FI on my Integra.

Most of the big turbo Honda's you see are for drag racing purposes with the high hp street guys doing roll races. You see smaller turbo setups for AutoX and fun DD cars. The Subie and DSM guys have the benefit of AWD and run turbo's that have a broader torque curve. It's true they have low compression and that's for running pump gas, I drove my friends WRX and it didn't have much low end until you wound it up then it was hoot. Ford Focus & Fiesta ST's kill it at Autox because of the small turbos that build a lot of mid range torque which really helps pull them along but loose it at high RPM's, it's a trade off. Unless you are like Andy and go twin charge and get the best of both worlds.

Did you include money for a beater DD car?

If you want to see something cool, check out Mercury Racing's 1350 inboard racing engine, it uses 7.8:1 compression but makes 1350HP. It's a 9L, quad cam v8 with twin turbos and a 1 year warranty lol. If you have to ask how much you can't afford it...+$200k
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Old 05-29-2015, 12:22 AM
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Thanks for the info. I will see if the local CC has any welding class since I am on summer break. Just trying to do something different since I like to build stuff and wench on car even though its the opposite of my profession. lol Trying to keep those finger clean for the pharmacy.

Keep the good info coming guys. More suggestion on parts would be nice. Also do you think the garrett app is a good one for determining turbo size and what not? I been using their app to get me into the ball park range of what turbo I should be running.

I found the book on amazon just incase anyone else wanted to look at it

Street TurbochargingHP1488: Design, Fabrication, Installation, and Tuning of High-Performance Street Turbocharger Systems: Mark Warner: 9781557884886: Amazon.com: Books Street TurbochargingHP1488: Design, Fabrication, Installation, and Tuning of High-Performance Street Turbocharger Systems: Mark Warner: 9781557884886: Amazon.com: Books

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Old 05-29-2015, 07:39 AM
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Get the twin turbos from the V6 ecoboost. They spool very quickly, are compact and can be found pretty inexpensively


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Old 05-29-2015, 11:41 AM
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I think those are too small - They use K03s on the trucks, and GT15s on everything else.

A K03 only flow 18lb/min so even with 2 you are limited to 360ish crank HP.

The GT15 is close to that, maybe a 20lb/min - so limited to around 400HP crank.

Those are max effort ratings on those as well - so you'd need to run them right in their efficiency range with a good amount of boost -probably close to 12 - 15 lbs.

That's gonna thump a LOT of heat - and our CR is way too high for that - 11:1. The ecoboost is 10:1, but it is a DI motor, which has many advantages over port injection.

A GT35 is a 70lb/min turbo, which is probably around what you'd want to run, maybe a GT30 sized one at 52lb, but I think that is kinda small for our engine.
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Old 05-29-2015, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1 View Post
Get the twin turbos from the V6 ecoboost. They spool very quickly, are compact and can be found pretty inexpensively


It would be sweet but they are just to small, screaminz28 sums it up well, limited HP and to much psi for a stock internal J-series. More turbos more problems lol. A big single turbo would be the way to go for our FWD handicap. We have 3.2-3.7 liter V6 so the off boost power should be more then enough even with lower compression IMO.

I see the cast in head manifolds as a big negative with turbos hanging off either side. Hot side pipes length of the single is the J-series friend
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Old 05-29-2015, 12:14 PM
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I came in here expecting something like this :






But carry on
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Old 05-29-2015, 01:16 PM
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You should know better. Haha I am Jdm as fuck.

Originally Posted by thoiboi View Post
I came in here expecting something like this :

Electric SuperChargers Mythbusted - YouTube





But carry on
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Old 05-29-2015, 01:27 PM
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The scary thing is that F1 IS using a hybrid electric turbo and Valeo has one as well - so they will eventually get here.
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Old 05-29-2015, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by screaminz28 View Post
If you get the OBX turbo piping, since it is stainless, you'll want to make sure that even if it is mig welded, that it is back purged, which isn't very common in muffler shops. Some of them don't even use gas when mig welding at all. If you don't backpurge it, it will "sugar" on the backside of the weld, which in our case would be the pipe heading to the turbo. You have to backpurge because the oxygen will contaminate the stainless so an inert gas is needed to prevent that.

That's the reason I suggested mild steel, or aluminized steel for making it - no need to backpurge. Well, that and it's cheaper. on vsixpee, 00SuperchargedV6 said he had the OBX kit and that it has been so hacked up, that basically nothing remains of it except the header part- he's got an A2 motor.

Matt, would you even recommend a China turbo with an internal wastegate? I know the X02 wastegates are pretty reliable and cheap. I'd be afraid of the internal wastegate failing on the cheapo turbo, as well as boost creep as you mentioned.

It's interesting to see your recommendation of going smaller rather than larger when unsure. Coming from the DSM/Subie arena, these guys LOVE to undersize a turbo, run a lot of boost in the midrange, and then taper on the top end. Honda guys always go big, or waaay too big.
It probably has more to do with the DSM and Subie guys having tons of traction while the Hondas don't, at least not in street trim. To clarify what I meant, I was talking for a fun street car, not a strip car where you can run a pop bang system and never worry about spool.


On the extreme end, when I was 18 I threw a big turbo on the car. It would shake the tires at 60mph which was a big deal back then...... but I lost to a stock-ish CRX for 5 stop signs in a row, basically a 0-40mph race over and over. I would floor it, he would pull on me hard off the start and then boost would come in right before I had to hit the brakes and spin the tires. Just not fun


These cars have awesome heads. I've always been a fan of a moderately sized turbo with zero mods up top. Most guys don't give the J series it's credit. The heads flow more than my ported aftermarket race heads on the GN. The big lobe has more lift and duration than the cam in my GN yet my car is trapping in the 140mph range. Once the Honda guys start doing like everyone else and running 20-25psi on the street we're going to see some really killer cars with very little money into them.


If I were doing a turbo setup, I would do the bottom end to hold the power and lower the compression down to 9:1. I wouldn't touch anything else from the throttlebody down, it's all more than good enough for >1,000hp as it sits.
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Old 05-29-2015, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by screaminz28 View Post
Ignore psi - that's a metric that means nothing really. It's a matter of cylinder pressure and airflow - 10 PSI from a GT35 is as much airflow as 20+ psi from a VF30, probably more.

They run high boost pressure because they can and need to - the stock 1G DSM compression ratio is 7.8:1 - yeah SEVEN POIINT EIGHT. Talk about NEEDING boost to get moving. Have you ever driven a 4G63 without the turbo? I have - its a giant turd.

Same with the WRX and STI - they have an 8:1 compression ratio.

I ran 25 PSI on my JDM STI with a VF30, but that is WAY out of the efficiency for that turbo. With a boost control solenoid, I was able to turn it up real high where the turbo was efficient and let it taper down so it wasnt just throwing hot air around with no power gain. It boost torque a lot which that little 2L needed plenty of.

I had a Greddy T67 (in between a GT30 and GT35) - also known as a 25G (some DSM people know the 16G and 20G) and 25 PSI on that would be 450 whp+ vs 25PSi from the VF30 which was barely 300 whp.
I agree to ignore boost pressure. The bottom end can handle a finite amount of power but it will handle whatever amount of boost it takes to get to that power whether it's 5psi or 25psi assuming no detonation.


About compression, you're going to typically lose around 3% in power for every full point in compression drop. Taking it down to 9:1 would be 16hp lost during NA operation. It's not a big deal and lower compression will spool the turbo quicker to help make up for the power loss. I haven't run it though the calculator but you will probably be able to run an additional 10psi for the same effective compression ratio which is going to net many times more than the 16hp lost.


My car had 7.8:1 compression but it spiked (purposely) to 17psi from the factory with heads designed in the early '70s. With better heads came higher compression ratios because of a better resistance to detonation. When I went to better heads I bumped compression to 8.5:1 to partially make up for the efficiency losses associated with aluminum vs iron. I actually raced a Ford Explorer with the wastegate wide open, no boost and my car was dead even with it when stock. Far from fast but it moves pretty good considering the naturally aspirated version made 110hp with the same heads and bottom end.


Compression vs efficiency is not a linear relationship, gains decrease as you go higher. There's not a huge difference from 8:1 to 10:1. If you start going below 8:1 the losses will be worse.


The reason compression ratios are pushed to the ragged edge of what octane will allow is it affects gas mileage more than power and manufacturers fight for even a .1mpg increase when they're selling over a million cars a year and the government is trying to penalize, fine, or gouge them every step along the way.


The other thing about choosing a good sized turbo and not going too large is the turbo will shape the entire power curve. When you take off easy from a light and the boost gauge doesn't move, you're still getting some assistance from the turbo. I noticed when I had a vacuum/boost gauge vs just a boost gauge that at just the minimum throttle to barely keep up with traffic, the turbo was working to reduce vacuum, giving me more power than it would have without the turbo even though a standard boost gauge would still be reading zero.
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Old 05-29-2015, 03:56 PM
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I should mention my BMW with the tiny 2.0l in it. They did an awesome job of integrating the turbo. You don't realize it's turbo charged. It does not feel like a peaky small engine big turbo setup where it's gutless and then slams you back in the seat when the boost hits. I would say it feels like an average NA V8 but it actually has more low end than most V8s. It was integrated well enough that full torque is in by 1,500rpm and power doesn't fall off at all to the 7,000rpm shift point. You can say 250hp isn't great but you have to compromise somewhere. On a 3.2L you can have a setup that's all in at 1,500rpm and still make an easy 400hp. With the J not being designed from the ground up as a turbo car I would take precautions if trying to bring boost in at really low rpms on the stock twig rods. To be safe it would probably be best for the engine to make sure full boost isn't realized until 2,000rpm or above but that would still be a big fat powerband. With an aftermarket bottom end you can probably let boost come in naturally, as low as it wants to go. Oil viscosity becomes very important when making big torque at low rpms and a GOOD 40wt would be a must.


What I'm saying is don't pick your favorite race car and copy it, you won't like it on the street unless you're into top end racing.


At the risk of generalizing, twins usually are more linear but just a tiny bit slower to hit full boost while a large single will be less linear and hit all at once and a little sooner. There are so many variables that the opposite can be true at any given time.
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Old 05-29-2015, 04:36 PM
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I would like to just keep it single turbo. Too much plumbing and things to go wrong with twins.

Looking for something that would come in around 3000-3500 rpm and pull until redline. My current redline is at 7000 since I stop making power
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Old 05-29-2015, 05:00 PM
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I'm sure lots of you guys might recall the turbo 3.2 built by Dynamotorsports here in Toronto - I actually talked to the owner's mechanic recently and he said that when he was running their first turbo, which was a GT3582r, it made 343, then 390ish on stock block and top end with little to no issues and was quite reliable - From a number of other 3 and 3.2 liter cars with turbos that I've seen locally, it seems like the GT35 is pretty much ideally sized if you want power in the 350 - 450 range, and I mean, they are pretty easily found. I was also looking at the Precision 6262 which seems like it might work.
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Old 05-29-2015, 05:30 PM
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you had me at playing tetris.

Now i will read the rest of this thread.
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Old 05-29-2015, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by thisaznboi88 View Post
I would like to just keep it single turbo. Too much plumbing and things to go wrong with twins.

Looking for something that would come in around 3000-3500 rpm and pull until redline. My current redline is at 7000 since I stop making power
I prefer singles as well.

The turbo will extend your power on the high end by a couple hundred rpm if your limiter allows

Just something to think about, but you can shape your power band to your liking with the turbo. For the most part, your upper rpm limit is determined by the usual (Heads, came, etc) but the low end is determined by the turbo. Wherever it can hit full boost will be your torque peak. I'm not trying to force having tons of low end torque on you but I just wanted to make sure you know that you can have huge low rpm power if you wanted it. Full boost/torque by 3k would be nice and the car will be easier to drive, less susceptible to being "in between"'gears if a race begins at a sub optimal speed. One example of a real life scenario is in my car I can go up one of the very steep, very long hills in top gear at 1,800rpm and even accelerate hard from that rpm without needing to downshift. The car will feel like it lost 1,000lbs with a responsive turbo setup.

Anyway, I won't bring up the low end anymore and 3k is pretty low and will give you a broad, usable powerband while not having to worry about rod bearings.

One other thing, if you are a freeway racer and need to go larger on the turbo, go larger but keep AR the same. Going with a higher AR is best left for larger engines to keep exhaust backpressure under control. Going a size up on the turbo will give far better results (spool and power) than raising the AR past .63.
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Old 05-29-2015, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by i_love_cars View Post
you had me at playing tetris.

Now i will read the rest of this thread.
Have I told you I hate you lately? You have the car I should have gotten. I spent 8 hours at the BMW dealer and had a new 335 M Sport ready to go. I made the mistake of taking the fiancée for a ride and she thought it rode too stiff and was too sporty. I left with a new 328 which has been a nice car but doesn't have half the aftermarket performance potential of the 6. How are you liking the turbo cars?
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:24 PM
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I am trying to source these flanges going to the exhaust manifold come straight off the heads, and go into the turbo. Now where do I have to install the O2 sensor so that the car doesn't freak out. There the first 2 already has a spot. now where do the next 2 have to go and do I have to use an O2 stim? If yes, then would that effect the AFR and changes how the hondata see the reading?



I also think it would be a good idea to start off with fresh O2 sensors since stuff get old and reading start to drift.
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Old 05-29-2015, 09:35 PM
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Those are the cast piece that Richie makes. If you go that route, you will definitely want to have it tig welded and backpurged.

To do it cheap (er) you would reuse your pcds and make an up pipe similar to the obx setup. Might seem ghetto but it works for subaru lol. Plus it would give us some additional piping to evacuate heat.

With the h22, people have found that they are best to avoid using a log manifold since they keep too much heat in the head, while a tubular can save the motor. I think we might benefit similarly.
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Old 05-29-2015, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by thisaznboi88 View Post
I am trying to source these flanges going to the exhaust manifold come straight off the heads, and go into the turbo. Now where do I have to install the O2 sensor so that the car doesn't freak out. There the first 2 already has a spot. now where do the next 2 have to go and do I have to use an O2 stim? If yes, then would that effect the AFR and changes how the hondata see the reading?



I also think it would be a good idea to start off with fresh O2 sensors since stuff get old and reading start to drift.
I was about to reply to your PM but then seen your post so I figured I'd share the with others too. As said by z28, I purchased those flanges from Richie and they were the V2 versions if I remember correctly. Don't recall the exact price but they were somewhere around $100 or so. The reason I chose to use the P2R flanges instead was because of the location I planned on mounting the turbo and also swinging out of the heads over to the side gave me less restriction than the whole merging below thing and also allowed for shorter distances between each exhaust port and the turbo itself (quicker spool & less material cost) but there's no wrong way to do it given your idea has thought into it.

As for the other oxygen sensors, they are catalyst efficiency monitors ONLY. They in no way affect the AFR and they can be completely disabled by Hondata which means they don't even have to be installed or plugged in.
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Old 05-29-2015, 11:25 PM
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I'm not sure exactly what you meant on the location of the turbo. A single turbo on a V engine is always a compromise. Myself along with a well known turbo header manufacture have done a lot of research on the best way to bring both banks into the turbo because there's obviously more than one way to do it.

What we found after more than a year is offsetting the turbo to one bank made about the same power but spooled better both off idle and had better transient response than a more centered turbo. You're basically trying to have the turbo close enough to one head so that the gasses are still expanding as they're hitting the turbine. The other bank that's a little farther away loses a little energy by the time it hits the turbo but not enough to make up for the additional energy provided by the closer side.

About the cast exhaust bits, I like using cast manifolds for turbo use pre turbo when available. They do a great job of retaining heat but in the Tls setup it's probably minimal.
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Old 05-30-2015, 12:34 AM
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another idea for those flangs is to have it bolt directly to the obx piping so less hacking and skip on the pdc unit. Then weld some O2 bung for the second set of O2 sensor that go on the bottom. That way there will still be offset between the banks.

doing some reading on here about turbo exhaust theory
Turbo Exhaust Theory

Do you think that the velocity of the exhaust can be increase if we reduce the turbulence of the gases coming out of the head by using the piping length to channel it? Or would the exhaust cool to much with the longer pipe?

Just throwing out some idea since Utah type-s manifold piping looks like this




while J&R piping loops around and merges before it it goes to the turbo flange




stole these from accordflex






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Old 05-30-2015, 12:38 AM
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I was also looking at ceramic coating vs warping, but that is for later on. Just wanted to have this here for reference since I forgot who does the coating.

White Lightning Exhaust Coatings | Swain Tech Coatings | Industrial Coatings | High Performance Racing Coatings


$40/foot approx.

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