FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

^ dude I hope you do man, that would be awesome to get that way almost naturally aspirated.. hmm not sure if I used the term correctly

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ it will be a NA config all the way....i might not do a turbo....in the next few years I will bore the bottom end and increase the compression, upgrade retainers/springs etc etc.....will be trying to get to 400ish to the wheels on a NA setup....

this is the long term plan LOL

shalimar75

Wow! nice setup

Can you help me out?
check out my post: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...1#post13373083

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ Thanks for the compliment dude....

here is what I would do (CUSTOM) since you have a type S...you can go and buy the Richiev6 system but it will not be custom....am giving you some custom idea....

SETUP1: GOOD Sound, Great Gains:
HIflow cats (stock) --> 2 straight pipes --> Soft Y merge --> Soft Y split --> 2 resonators --> 2 mufflers --> tips

This will sound good (better than mine since you wont have rasp coming coz of the hi-flow cats)....will give you great gains....

SETUP 2: Great sound, Good gains
Hiflow cats --> Richie v3 jpipe (or custom made) --> straight pipe --> 1 resonator --> soft y split --> 2 mufflers --> tips

veggiemonster

iTrader: (1)

i'm gonna copy you (sorta) and have +25hp all the time with mah 6 gears

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ hahaha please do....

I was thinking do i really wanna spend that much $$$ on this car...?

might as well save for my next car....it will be an exotic I just want to get to 320-ish to the wheels and remove like 500-600 lbs off the car and call it a day

veggiemonster

iTrader: (1)

trust me man. there is nothing better than 300+ whp and about a 3k lb curb weight. get to that point, and call it a day. if you still have the bug, get a car that you literally don't care how it looks, but performs the best. just throw your money at that, and go for gold.

but please! don't kill yourself modding the TL. more than likely you end up moving on later and regretting it.

i look at mine strictly as a daily. but that doesn't mean i can't have a quick + reliable one right?

have you gotten a new video since you updated the resonators? i bet it's louder now that it's colder out and air density is skyrocketing

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ nah bro....I have put the TL away for the winter...since I was traveling so much I told my insurance I wont be driving my car and they ended up removing the collision coverage and only keeping the comp....this was I pay only $50 for 6 months

dont wanna drive it and take any risk....doesnt mean am not modding it LOL....got the TB bored, got new tails....wanted to do a lot of engine work but i guess will pass....dont wanna spend $6-8K doing ECU/Cams/Heads/Retainers/Springs/Valves/etc....might just spend another 2K tops on:

Headlight mod (my current lens is fogging up)
Weight loss
Side Skirts
1 sexy interior mod....gonna keep it for now....being discussing this with DM to see if he wants to help me with this....

veggiemonster

iTrader: (1)

so then what power mods do you have done? i thought you hadn't done any porting yet?

also, you are a liar and never on google talk

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ am fully bolted on....thinking about AEM FIC and calling it a day LOL....

ahaha am always on gtalk....am on it right now....get on there

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

hey, sorry to review but was wondering how the drone is? I know you cant drive it but what is the sound in idle? now that it has been a few months

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^hahhaha....drone is there but only at certain rpm's....so is the rasp....

at certain rpm's the sound is exotic and certain rpm's i just close my ears LOL....

bouncer07

Might have to contact Full Race to make me some dual quad exhaust, although it's going to be spendy as I will be the only customer with the TL. I've had their turbo kits before and made a good relationship with them, but this is just a maybe if I decide to build it... one day.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ yeah it gets expensive as your doing a trial and error and your the only customers but hey you get the exclusivity....

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

anil, where do you haev your Venturi tube set at? any pictures of it? I saw a pick of a merge but it didnt look like a Venturi tube, and did you notice a difference in the powerband?

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

merge ? where LOL....

well am trying to get he shop to make me a custom venturi tube the problem with that is they have venturi tubes for like 3.5" exhaust....none for 2.25" exhaust....so am looking at a 2.25" inlet which tapers to 1.75-1.8" and back to 2.25....helps in pushing the pulses out and create some backpressure and takes the shitty drone + rasp out

the powerband is insane....after the bored TB and the exhaust, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear pull very hard

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

just read through the thread again and it seems like you did not get the venturi tube.. now i am off to do some reasearch on it!

Inaccurate

Just my take on it.....

Get rid of the loudness = getting rid of the power increase

Little more quiet = Little less power increase

I do not think (imo) that there is a way to drop the noise without creating some back-pressure.

at the "certain rpm's i just close my ear". This is the solution that I have been using with my loud system.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Feji: Nope....this is plan:

1> take off those flex pipes
2> add bungs in both primaries for wideband sensor
3> add a venturi pipe just before the initial muffler which has an X merge
4> wrap atleast half of the exhaust with header wrap

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Finally you spoke about my exhaust Tim....

I agree with you word for word.....but at some rpm's i sound like a fart canned civic....it is annoying but yes am fast LOL....

trying to find something in the middle, where the sound is decent thro the curve (no am not worried about loudness, but rasp) and i have gains....

lets see what happens....

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

Inac! where are the VIDS???????

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^

PS: Feji, I love how you research in deep, i do not have that quality....let me know if you find something out of the ordinary for the venturi tubes....i tried researching and i found couple pros but no cons....

Thanks in advance

Inaccurate

Sorry Swoosh .... I didn't mean to be a snob or unsociable.

I actually read thru most of this thread yesterday after you piqued-my-interest when you told me that you had the same wild 4th gear improvement as me. Before that, I had not read this thread much because I knew that I would never do a dual system.

Getting back to the rasp killing -

I had an unexpected and interesting experience recently. While I was starting to build my 3" system, I had to remove my RV6 Test Pipe from my car so that I could have the welder remove the flange for my new system.

I had an old resonated test pipe in storage that I used temporarily to put in place of the RV6 Test pipe. I had an interesting discovery from driving with this old resonated test pipe. I know that conclusions should not be made based on just one data point, but it did impact me from an emotional (vs logical) level.

I noticed that the resonated test pipe had greatly toned-down my rasp that I had been living with for years. But, I then started to notice that my power was also less in those same rpm areas where the rasp was now more quiet. Interesting to say the least.

This did leave a impact on me. Logic says that I can't draw a conclusion from such little evidence. But emotionally, I now relate less rasp as being less power. And after that confirmation that I witnessed in 4th, my system is staying "as is" until I am motivated otherwise (cough, police pulling me over).

The con would be more back pressure. This is what got me started on the topic. There is no way around it. Anything (including the venturi) will create back pressure as the ulitmate means in which it reduces noise (including reducing rasp).

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

No need for apologies sir....

Your theory is 80% correct....rasp comes from the exhaust pulses being amplified in the muffler/pipe....and IT IS a kinda side effect of free flowing exhaust....since the pipes are big, the pulses rattle inside em and hence rasp....this give us awesome top end and killer low end power....

when the pipes become narrow (venturi tube) or you introduce some amount of backpressure by inserting a cat or a narrower tube....the exhaust pulses grow up together and hence the rasp is eliminated, you will def not loose your top end, it might tad bit hurt your low end how ever....

i am most positive about this and will do a before and after dyno....i will have to spend a good day or 2 at the dyno LMFAO....just doing the before and after dynos LOL

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

so digging into it, what you both (swoosh and Inac) said is correct around the venturi.. and also when Inac put his resonated test pipe back in... both items "restrict" the airflow.. now I used "" because it is hard to judge how much it restricts the airflow.. from the butt-dyno Inac did he noticed a difference in the power band so we know there is something there

from what I read of the venturi the “pros” and “cons” are interlinked.. it can restrict your airflow.. but it also can help your airflow.. and the way it does either is by where it is placed… its finding the right part of the pipe to help it along

not sure if I am dating myself.. but for those who use to play the game Excitebike on the first Nintendo system do you remember when you made your own track there was that boost feature? Looked like a grouping of arrows… when you used it correctly you can boost at the right time but if you used it incorrectly it wont help you at all or even cause problems

that is like the venturi.. if placed too early it cause restrictions.. if placed too late then really does nothing.. it is finding that point in your exhaust flow when the exhaust is slowing down slightly.. if at that point it hits the venturi the exhaust gets compressed then pushes out the other side faster keeping the exhaust flow going smooth…

hardest thing is that there is no exact science to say place it here or place it there.. and trial and error will be expensive

I am still digging into it.. not just venturi but also other mufflers, cats, resonators.. just items that can help the exhaust flow go better but not restrict the overall flow..

Going to put some questions out in the performance thread area on exhaust flow.. see what can be found.. well after I do more searching… its funny how much old stuff you can dig up… and many repeated cycles of questions but no answers.. probably one of the same reasons you see same questions again… did a few thread revivals recently since I didn’t want to ask the question again

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ positioning

i was thinking of putting is right before the first muffler (with the X merge)...this way the pulses will be "pushed thro" the muffler....then I will wrap the down pipe (after the muffler)....this way the rest of the down pipe stays hot and moved the pulses out faster....

this is going to be my last try LOL....

Inaccurate

I would be happy to be proven wrong in this case. We could all benefit from a way to kill rasp without killing power.

veggiemonster

iTrader: (1)

swoosh. i have an idea for you. it would be a 'track' solution. this is from my last car, as i'm sure everyone knows all i do is mention it lol, but being turbo it's a little different. on that car, i wanted to basically do a 'long tube' open downpipe setup for autox events/road track...i wanted to keep my ramp up/vacuum/under 15psi power strong with a lot of torque, with the gains up top and faster spool.



mechanical because i'm cheap and it only takes 2 minutes to take off and put it in the trunk, or your buddies if your at the local race spot


that's the rear passenger tire you see. so there was a total of about 4 ft from the turbo location, which is pretty much equal length to the front of the 3rd converter on the TL. i had good gains, it made a difference of about 2 cars in a race i had back to back with the mufflers on which really surprised me.

this would be pretty similar to a side cutout, just without the actual cutout sticking out.

i know you want to get a little low end back, but i don't think you can without hurting your top-end, so lets just focus on that, ya know?

i mean, i know that venturi's are awesome, i had a short ram intake with one that really did do something. but i don't know that you'll be happy with the results.




otherwise, get rid of your rasp, keep the Db level up. also, remember that air pressure change=sound, so i'm not completely sure your venturi idea will decrease the sound, and i still believe and inline muffler/resonator would be best.



now if your main concern right now is velocity, you should have dropped your piping size down as you got closer to the rear. you would have had to know how much volume was lost due to temps. since your exhaust is already made, i would look into heat wrap. high temp=high pressure=high velocity, temps bleed out and you lose pressure, therefore speed.

another edit: this is a pretty controversial idea. having heatwrap open's you up to fire issues. it wicks oil/liquids into itself like a candle wick, and being on your exhaust you could ignite it one day. most only use it in area's where oil can not leak onto, and the far underside of the car is def not in that 'safety' area

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ veggie, i was thinking around the same lines or inserting smaller diameter piping towards the end of the exhaust but it will mess up my top end....also am planning to do some mods in the future which i think will require a little bigger pipe

plus when i was at the shop, i was like telling him "bro side shoots will be awesome" and he was like, we haven't started working on it yet so we can do it....

i didnt wanna be a social outcast and if the exhaust didnt sound too good then be called a ricer LOL....

i was thinking of doing this:



Thanks for posting about your car....i think the FI makes the full difference.....i cant imagine driving a 400+hp car

veggiemonster

iTrader: (1)

they (the exhuast) are closer than you think. i had a trudual 2.5", with 3" mouthed DP's on tiny 22lb/min turbo's. it was just a well rounded setup.

but----before you fully decide against something like that....

with the full exhaust

with the 'cutout'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3038427...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3038427...n/photostream/

youtube won't upload those like a little bitch.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

SICK !!!

that sounds just awesome....

Inaccurate just posted something on the other thread, I believe your using the resonator in the bottom....

veggiemonster

iTrader: (1)

no swoosh, but those are the types i told you to try if you had major sound complaints and space issues.

but my resonator is a dimple design, not the louver style, and it's only like 6-8" long

and now you understand why i call it for 'race' applications. LOL.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ aaaah now i understand....

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Sean (Veggie)....

had a request....can you post some upstream pictures from the open 'track' setup ? upstream from here:

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

Veggie, this is for an earlier post... if you narrow the pipes at the end of your exhaust then you will be back in the same issues of restricting exhaust and increasing back pressure

I think taht was the indea of a venture in that it is just a small section that .. probably about 1 inch.. that is smaller piping.. again using the excitebike example.. just gives you a boost to your airflow when it is slowing down... not doing a full restriction..

again I dont know how well it will work.. it is just theory until someone does it... I for one am happy that swoosh is going to champion this effort and make those changes....

veggiemonster

iTrader: (1)

oh shit....i don't think i can man. but i'm gonna do my best to recreate it for you.


off the car, but obviously that one has no mufflers. you can see the test pipes there, which is how i got my resonated pipes with 02 bungs.





that plate is the rear diff incase you are wondering. picture taken slightly to the right of vehicle center.



i think you know where the arrow should be by now

veggiemonster

iTrader: (1)

so if you follow this graph, as temps go down, so does volume. so you 'choke' down the exhaust to keep the velocity up. on boosted cars you want as little pressure on the exhaust side of the turbine, so those nice turbo race cars (gotta have an exhaust and comply to Db levels) use a linear diameter.

but on NA, you want to have the 'right size' and even the right drop down to maximize your low/high end. remember that pressure isn't 100% bad for flow. if you have no pressure, or too big a chamber right after the head, the A/F charge will go right out the exhaust valve on the overlap losing power.
to continue...

too much drop down, and yes, now at 7k rpm you don't have enough flow.

true dual 2.25=A = 3.9760782021996 in sq., x2, so let's just say 8" of area.

if you drop down to 2"= 3.14 in sq (OF COURSE !!!), so 6.3 in sq total.

i'd bet swoosh is still in the low 80% range, so we'll use 85% as his number. and still compare it to the 100% just because then we can pretend i really did take into account the variable timing and other things like that.

i'm not gonna go into calculations of that stuff since i don't actually have data. but you see what i mean, right?

nice, here is someone spelling it out for us, with the math and all

okay.

so now i did, ((195 CI x 7200 rpm) / 3456) / 1.0 VE =406.25 to get the high side of intake CFM.

with a 85% VE, so that makes 345 CFM on our low side for this talk.

to continue on and use his example of 1800 F*...(think the exhaust valves-- if you're a nit picker think of the end of the manifold collector, you'll see why later-- and if you want to see why combustion works, look at the volume difference if you use 3600F* which is standard temp thrown around for cylinder walls.)

((1800 + 460) / (80+ 460)) x 406= 1699.1 CFM
" " x 345= 1443.8 CFM
this enclosed works out to 4.185__________ like said above

(F*)+460 is rounded for the conversion to convert F* to R* fyi. which i will already have done below.

to go backwards on that.....let's say the tips see a 950F* gas temp....

so,

1410(which is the change to temp in R*)/ 2260 (this is now considered the atmosphere/absolute temp is R*) = 0.62 = 62% less volume once it reaches the back of the car.

going back up to our exhaust CFM without temp change taken into account....

1699.1 x 0.62 = 1060 CFM corrected
1443.8 x 0.62 = 985 CFM corrected

Assuming we have a perfect flow split, we'll divide those by two.
So we have 849.55 CFM at the head per bank, and 530 CFM at the tips for our 1:1 VE;
And we have 721.9 CFM at the head, and 492.5 CFM with our 85% VE

now, to see the difference in velocity i'm talking about with out corrected flows, i'm using a simple HVAC calculator. i've already spent like 3 hours searching for all this and typing it up and i'm getting lazy now.

there's a whole bunch of port cavities, expansions and bottle necks i can't account for so this is all speculation in case you missed it.

so a 849.5 CFM at the collector nets a gas velocity of 86.5 mph while, the 530 CFM @ the tips nets a velocity of 54.5 mph
delta of (-)32 mph.
orrrrrrrrrrr, 721.9=74.3 mph and 492.5=50.7 mph.
delta of (-)23.6 mph.
oh wait! look at the spreads. notice how when the CFM is higher, and the piping stays the same CI area, the velocity drop is more noticeable!?!?!

so, let's go down to a 2" diameter pipe (x2 of course but we already split up our values)
492.5 CFM -> 2" pipe= 64.1 mph
and 530 CMF " " = 69 mph

those leave a delta of (-)17.5 mph and of (-)10.2 mph


the pressure stays pretty equal, so the velocity also does.



or you could just imagine a traffic jam.

some of my sources today (aka what i haven't closed out yet):::::
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=104735
http://www.comairrotron.com/airflow_calc.shtml

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

dude Sean, dont scare people from my thread

That is a very extensive research bro....i could only understand parts of it and I will be going over it again and again, till i understand every part of it....

i know the bottom line is:
towards the end of the exhaust if you have a 2" exit, the exhaust velocities are not "chocked" or back pressure it not created.....

but am looking into some future mods which are around cams/bigger injectors/ecu/weight reduction....

i know weight reduction wont do anything with respect to exhaust flow but lighter weight will go thro the rpm range quicker and hence quicker exhaust flow but yeah i know bigger injectors + cams will also push a lot more exhaust pulses and quicker thro the exhaust....i dont know how these 3 mods will push pulses out quicker....

i think i should leave the exhaust as is and work on my other mods and then see if there is any rasp or drone and then work on the exhaust.....

veggiemonster

iTrader: (1)

those things would quickly increase your VE, and therefore your flow numbers. those variations in numbers, like 345:406, is all because of the +/-15% in efficiency.

but, you already know about efficiencies, like thermal ones. you are a huge advocate on this forum for modding to remove heat soak. this is really similar....and really different at the same time.

do you plan to max out the 440's? what fuel pressure? i mean, my exhaust wouldn't have been a power-robber until i was over 500whp...chp that's over 600. and that was a 2.25" or 2.5" catback. so i really can't see you having an issue there.

one thing, is when you lighten up the car you will lose load. more load=more A/F charge. that's why you hear bad things about dyno only tuning, because it doesn't simulate the 'living conditions' of the engine. but you plan to run a dual wideband? you'll be fine, i'm sure you watch your stuff. also, i'm interested to see what your banks will show. my last car the pass bank would always run about .1 stoich leaner than the driver side, so the forum knew which pipe to bung for a 1 sensor only setup.


but, from what i've read, i think those are massive injectors for a 6 cyl....an example.
my s4 was on 52lb (call them 540cc's) injector on a 4bar FPR (works out to 58lb/600cc) on a 255 walbro in-tank.
my friends evo, which makes within 20 whp of it, runs stock FPR (no clue what that is on and evo) on 1100cc injectors.

if we assume all effieciencies are the same, then the CFM required for that power is the same. air charge needs a set amount of fuel, so you see...a 4 cyl engine needs much more fuel per cyl compared to the 6.

if you are fine testing waters, i'd like to see you chance the $100 or so on a FPR to adjust your fuel delivery that little bit you'd want.

i also had a 60lb/630cc injector setup with a 3bar FPR, and it ran terribly compared to the higher line pressure setup. idle was shitty, and vacuum driving/low boost was terrible because of the heavy spray. but those were siemen deka's, and the 52lb'r's were the new bosch ev14's which are much much much better/more atomized spray, especially at low pressure/idle.


don't at all think i'm trying to sway you away from your own plans Anil, you have a very well rounded setup going for you....just things to think about, because once you get into cams/injectors you'll notice even more part throttle injector bog...you'll lose more low end, etc.

best thing anyone could know when they start to get really into mods, is think of what you really want to do with it, like road course? daily? strip machine? because each has it's own methods of achieving the 'best' setup, and pro's and con's can switch depending on your driving style. i also agree, you should get your ECU and wideband setup, see your timing blocks and fuel trims, and then decide what to do to maybe get your powerband right where you want it.


edit: on rpm, you will only ramp UP to your maximum flow rate faster, and not flow more. if you mean, you'll flow more in a given amount of time, yes because you get up into higher rpm quicker, but your weight won't effect the CFM that is possible....which is all based on your VE.

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

great info veggie, paints a better picture for me