dseag2

Automophile, thanks for actually introducing something relevant to this thread. Too bad you have to sift through 4 pages of pissing back and forth to find actual answers. No wonder therapy is so prevalent these days!

Anyway, I've upgraded components in a couple of previous cars, and I'll have to agree with a few others who said MB Quart speakers have excellent sound, but I don't plan on spending the time or money doing the same in this car.

My question to you is... based on your expertise, which OEM automobile sound system are you most impressed with?

Jaydef

from what ive seen, infinity is MUCH better than bose. first off, the bose in the CL sucks, no bass whatsoever. i used to have a 00 TL, and the system blew it away. but thats also bc the TL had a sub. when i had a old gen 98 Jeep Limited with inifitys, that was by far better than both the CL and the TL.

savageTL

One of the problems with comparing named OEM systems across brands and models is you never know how much the auto manufacturer is paying for the components, you know how much they charge us, but in the end some brand X sounds better than brand Y even if brand Y has better overall components in their entire line. However, it does give a clue to the brands based on what they will allow their name to be associated with. Next is your ears, everone is different.

Thats the other issue, lots of peoply want recommendations as to what speakers or other compoinents they should use. Unfortunately, without knowing their preferred music, volume levels, their "ear" etc it is difficult to recommend. The needs of someone who listens to Baroque organ fuges compared to one who only listens to classical guitar are quite different. The best approach is to head down to a quality installer with several CDs which represent your music and you know well (preferably having heard on a quality home system which you liked) and just listen.

Vandy

JetJock

Anyone with a name "Dope" is pretty hard to take seriously. This thread has had me rotfl for the past few days, other than the bad language, it's the funniest thread that's come along for quite some time.

Big Ped

$75 at Kamart don't sound like the "best" system around to me. From a buisiness perspective, if I produced the best system out there, I would not associate my sales or develop a distribution channel via Kmart. It would bring quality perception down. Like the affect I got when you mentioned Kmart and $75. I may be wrong, just asking you know cause I'm really serious about buying new speakers or something.

tlguy99

He's just kidding. That stuff is the absolute worst stuff available. Obviously, don't go to Kmart for your audio needs. Go to a qualified installer and listen to everything with your own CD's. Make a decision based on that.

PoochaKannInc

This thread is an amazing example of good information mixed w/ bs. Thanks for the laugh! I just took my first long trip in the TL and I noticed that the sound was not clear, and it was so much bass-heavy that I needed to turn down the bass (I'm no sound engineer or even close to one). I was surprised to hear that other people also encountered it on this thread.

Like BigPed asked, how do I deal w/ this? Is the majority opinion is to change out the speakers first?

Lastly, "Doc" you should definitely go into "deadpan humor"...you had me rolling...

SpecialFX

Just got back from K-Mart with my new system. I decided to toss all of the ELS system in favor of Sparkomatic. Got the whole system for under $100 including a 1500 watt amp. And I'm tossing the Navi screen and installing an Etch-A-Sketch. That high tech stuff never works right anyway. Plus I get to put the roads exactly where I like them.

This is the funniest thread in a while. I can't believe some people take obvious joking so seriously and others, though they know next to nothing (Dopey), spout rediculous advertising mumbo jumbo as if it were gospel. It's sad how people can be misled and fervently defend their ill-concieved opinions.

Having said that - this must continue forever. It's too funny to end.

dcarlinf1

tlguy99

Ok so I overreacted a little. I really thought he was serious.

savageTL

To answer the question about what to look at first, this is my PERSONAL approach with ANY sound system designed for fidelity.

#1. The source. Poorly recorded and mixed source material will always produce poor results GIGO (garbage in garbage out). However, we often don't have a choice, if we like an album we rarely have options regarding mixing etc.

#2. The environment. Here again the environment is somewhat set, but sound deadening can help cut some of the ambient noise and reverberation (RT60 for the cognescenti). We are rather stuck with our "box" so we can't really optomize dimensional ratios (for reference my 2 channel listening room is 15.2' X 11.2' X 8') to reduce standing wave etc.

#3 Speakers. Speakers are more personal than the rest of the hardware. Pick speakers based on your ears, the only way to do that is to listen. Listen to the most expensive systems you can fit in your budget and lots of others less expensive, price isn't always a measure of quality and certainly not what fits your ears and music. In a perfect world you would listen to speakers in a Gen 3 TL, but unlike auditioning home speakers in your listening room it is rarely feasible. You have to do some guess work here.

#4 Amplification. In the modern world of solid state amps it is rare for anyone other than a true audiophile golden eared "snob" to honestly maintain that one amp "sounds" better than another, this is a source of argument (not unlike TL vs G35). That said even if you beleive all SS amps sound the same they still must be matched to the speaker. Often higher quality drivers (speakers) present higher loads to the amplifier, this in turn causes clipping, poor sound and ultimately melted voice coils (blown speaker). I would only suggest changing amps if you need them to drive the new speakers without strain to the volume levels you require. One nice thing about aftermarket car audio amps is that most of them are stable driving very low impedence loads, this may or may not be true of the TLs amps (actually unlikely since they would be matched to the OEM drivers, over spec amps just add needless cost). Again if you change speakers make sure you have amps to properly drive them, just looking at the nominal impedence of the speaker is not good enough, you must consider the impedence trace over the entire operating frequency range of that driver and its sensitivity/efficiency. One other note as in any system you are just getting to know listen closely for clipping when you are at high volumes. Fortunately clipping is quickly evident IF you listen since it shows up as odd order harmonic distortion which the human ear is VERY sensitive to. You don't need to understand the technical issues, just listen for harsh or tinny changes in the sound as levels increase, if you hear it, turn it down.

#5. Front end. In the TL's case it is the CD/DVD reader and the cassette deck. No point in yacking much about that since changing the HU in the TL is unlikely for most.

#6. Processing. In a home system I consider this evil. However in an environment like a car it has its uses. It could have its uses but would require skill to prevent the cure being worse than the disease. There are lots of line level car audio processing options available how well they will work with a given combo of components is hard to say. The processing handled by the TL's HU would require another HU to change, obviously.

#7. Power. By this I mean how clean and regulated the power supply for the components are. It can be of issue in cars but unlikely to be an issue in a modern car unless you are addressing a specific (unusual) problem, cars have the advantage of DC, given some of the worlds most advanced home amps (6 figures!) use battery power this is a positive thing!

#8. Cables. This is probably the largest "fight" audiophiles enter into. I am of the Ludite sect shown by the fact my speakers are connected to my amps by .50 per foot wire (the sum of MSRPs for the 2 speakers and monoblock amps are a shade under that of a TSX), while I have friends who have enough money in two speaker "wires" and 2 pairs of interconnects to have bought a new Civic instead connected to speakers and amps worth less than mine...go figure. In the end cars are a little different since shielding is much more of an issue. Although, I haven't heard any issues I think are cable issues there MIGHT something to be gained by using interconnects (HU to amp) with better shielding.



Bottom line on with a given budget I would always look at better recordings first, then sound damping, then the speakers. On the TL I would likely stop there UNLESS the speakers of choice required new amps to drive them. If you are on a tight budget I would only audition speakers which can be comfortably driven by the OEM amps. This may require some digging to get a true idea of what kind of load the TL's amps can safely handle.

I will end this diatribe with my favorite audio truism, all (marketing) watts are NOT created equal...

Vandy

PS I am NOT a car audio guy, in fact I rarely listen to anything but Books on Tape in the car, this is based on the fact my rather meager office system (Paradigm Titan speakers) is far more satisfying to me than 99% of car audio systems I have heard, mainly because I am an imaging freak and to top it off I generally detest multi-channel music, this really isn't as much due to the tech involved but the ridiculous engineering I hear on the recordings. The REs (recording engineers) seem to overuse the muti-channel format, I assume because they figure since they have it they HAVE to use it, and for me usually to excess.

tlguy99

Well I think that pretty well sums it up. I have rarely heard this subject better expalined. After reading it, there needs some emphasis put on a couple subjects.

1) The wiring choices are very important in the car audo world. While inhome audio you have little chance for electrical interferance, it is quite the oppiset in a car. With all the electronics and wiring in a modern car, it is difficult to find a path that will not introduce noise into the system. This is usually combatted by primarily two things. The use of havely shielded wire and "twisted pair" interconnects. The twisting of the cable in a regular pattern reduces the chance of introducing noise into the system. Second the routing of the power cabling and the audio cable is essential. When doing this keep the audio cable as far away from the power wire as possible, if it is absolutly necessary to have them cross, make sure the cross happens at a 90* angle. Without going into the physics of electrical current and electrical fields, this also reduces the chance of introducing electrical noise into the system.

2) The analysis of amplification is dead on. The only thing I might disagree with is the ability to distiguish the sound quality of different amps. But as Savage said, i's like the TL v. G35 debate. This was further summed up by the statement, watts are not greated equal. This is absoulty true. The use of an amp that creates distored power to the speaker will enevatably harm the speaker if conitualy exposed to high volumes; Thus, if you want to play high quality speakers at fairly high levels, the quality of the amp is essential.

3) The enviroment, as said is pretty stationary, there is not much that can be done; however, the proper use imaging, or placing speakers in such a way in which it reproduces the sound directly infornt of you, will create a wonderful listening experiance. This is a very tricky process and usually requires a good amount of fabrication, as well as a professional installer to obtain good results. Acceptable results can be had by placing the speakers producing the higher frequencies so that they aim across the car, and if they had laser pointers attached, would intesect somewhere right above the dash.

4) Processing, although not a necessity it will great help reprouce a "flat" response as you are able to compensate for the accoustics of a very hostile audiable enviroment (a car). A flat response may not be what you enjoy listening too, infact most of the population would not like to listen to a flat response, myself included. In this case, the processors can be used to reproduce a signal that is pleasing to you.

Again, very well said and a solid basis to begin the design of any audio system.

999999

tlguy,

I'm glad you added your comments. I agree. Spending large amounts of money on amps is about the lowest payoff per $ once you have good, clean amplification, but there is no denying that you need a certain level of clean power to get good sound out of almost any speakers. Most head units or factory systems fall short of that.

I plan to sound deaden the entire floor, the rear deck, much of the roof and the doors (where it doesn't interfere with the side aribags.

tlguy99

I did the same in my compition car (1988 camaro). I ripped out the ENTIRE interior and put 2 layers of dynomat down the ful length pf the car. I don't think Iwill go to that extent in this car, plus that took right around a week. I don't want to have this car have that sort of down time.

FYI, I am very excited about the system that will be going into the TL, dynaudio components (that's partly why I took such offense lol), focal coaxils in the back, the butler tube driver blue 5 channel amp and the orion 2500D sub amp. I can't wait to hear how this sounds. I wil definately have pics up and reviews once it is done. Should be a few months though.

savageTL

tlguy, thanks for adding your auto sound knowledge to my admittedly home audio centric diatribe!

I am also a huge Dynaudio fan, the Danes make my favorite drivers! In fact I am listening to some Danes right now (they are Totem Mani 2s that use 6.5" Dynaudio woofers in a push pull configiration which gives usable frequency responce below 30hz).

It also appears that Dope is now AWOL, wonder why...

Vandy

Big Ped

DopeTL04

Yea I'll tell you why...

I have realized there is no point wasting my time with a bunch of clueless honkies! If you have no idea about sh!t, than thats your problem, not mine! I dont know you and could care less that your IQ is similar to an ants! The more I read what some of you have to write, the more I laugh and realize that there are a lot of dumb people in this world......Everyone cant know what there talking about....

I will no longer waste my time in RETART 101! 1

dcarlinf1

Too funny

999999

I'm going Nordic as well, using the DLS Iridium 3-way that has been winning so many sound quality competitions over the past few years. No rears. ADS Sub. Zapco electronics.

My first good home speakers were Dynaco A25s back in the early 70s. Dynaco is now a cmnpany called "Dynaudio", I believe.

tlguy99

That sounds like a ggod setup. The only reason that I am going with the rears and center channel is because I am going to be doing the DVD screen mod to the NAV system. so I want the 5.1 available for the DVD movies.

ndea01

I can’t stand anymore of the trash I am hearing from both DopeTL04 and dcarlinf1. You guys should be able to convey your points without name calling and getting personal, especially with the inappropriate language and Icons that is being used (I wish the Admin of this site would remove that icon with the two middle fingers up). Aside from your tones you both are correct in your analyses. I can prove my point with this statement. The art of audio is just that, an art form ones perception and another’s interpretation of the end creation. No one other than the person(s) that made the music has the right to sell another person on his or her opinion. You are correct in YOUR opinion of why YOU don’t like the sound, but the next person may love the very essence of the items you hate. No two people hear things the same. In this world of audio there are no components that any one consumer or manufacture can honestly say, “this is the best speaker, preamp, amp etc. in the world”. The equipment should only be judged by the owner. Someone giving a review of a particular item is only giving his or her opinion. While doing my research for a new car, I read some reviews stating the Acura TL was not an exciting car to drive since it was a front wheel drive. While I find it not as fun to drive as a BMW, I still can’t wait to get home and go anywhere, (the store, the mall or just get lost. Oh! how can I get lost? I have a cool Nav system). Those reviews are the comments of someone looking for the perfect vehicle (not going to be found at $34K) Boy, am I glad I didn’t listen to those reviews. DopeTL04, You stated that you are a DJ. I too am a DJ, back from the early days of Hip HOP (1980), and the rig I would use indoors I would not be able to use outdoors with the same tonal results. In fact I would never use my indoor DJ setup in my house. I have three separate setups. One for audio (about $7k) one for home Theater (about $55K and counting) and a bedroom/bathroom system (about $3k). I said all of that to say this, I could never find it in myself to tell another person that their system sounds like crap. Not because I am a nice guy. I just know that sound is is a personal perception not always a sentiment shared by the masses. I have heard some good sounding Bose systems and I have herd some really bad sounding Bose systems. In fact my previous car was a 03 Infiniti I35 with a Bose system. IMO it was one of the better sounding Bose setups. Had it not been for the steering wheel controls I would have ripped the system out and installed a custom system tailored to my liking. Spdey07 stated that Bose use paper cones. I find the sound of paper cones to be true in reproduction, but the trade off is the life expectancy of the material (dries out and or the surrounds don’t bond well to the cones). Due to the ongoing evaluation of technology the invention of polypropylene provides the durability of plastic and the sound paper (nice sound). When you get into Kevlar cones then you are talking serious sound. The bottom line is “music is in the ear of the beholder” and is not to be knocked by anyone other than the person creating the music or the beholder at that moment. Any comment from anyone other than those individuals are just personal opinions, not a fact.