I went to Acura delaership for the B1 services on my 06 Acura TL. My car has 21000 miles on it when it was services. As soon as the service is done, there is a note saying that the transmission fluid is dark and needs to be flush for $ 224 or drain and refill it for $101...

I was like surprised because my TL only has 21000 miles on it and it needs transmission fluid change? Does anyone ever had this before????

When does the transmission fluid need to be flushed?? At what mileage??

Thanks

 

I'm assuming you are talking about an Automatic Transmission - The service dept. at Acura of Tempe is recommending the transmission service as part of a 30,000 mile service. My car has about 25K miles on it and I went ahead and had this service done. People here will probably say I wasted money, but I'd rather be safe with this.

 

What are your opinions on Synthetic ATF? I'm thinking about doing it on my 04...

 

I don't know much about it. Here's a thread which discusses it though: Thread Link

 

Yes, it is an automatic transmission. Sorry forgot to mention it....

Thank you for the info. I will probably drain and refill it when it gets 25,000 miles on my car. I was thinking that usually the transmission fluid needs to be changed by 50,000 miles.

 

Never heard about it though. Is that what Acura dealer recommend you for your transmission fluid??

 

i do my tranny replacements every 10-15k miles... can't be too safe on these Honda AT...

 

Typical dealership...

Greetings dre23, I say the above due to there actually being a tech letter/bulletin of sorts that Acura put out literally stating that the auto trans fluid gets dark extremely quick and that it was "normal." Not an indication of trans issues nor a reason to have the trans serviced "now."

If they mentioned a foul / burnt odor, that would be different...

If I remember correctly the TL manual calls for the first change at 60K. I'm a firm believer in every 25 or 30K. I would wait until your next oil change and then definitely consider it. However, read your owners manual on how Acura recommends it is done: drain and refill at least 3 times to ensure the fluid is near completely flushed etc.. Your $101 drain and fill price above is just one of the three required. The flush isn't something Acura recommends either but given the right machine/process that can be a perfect alternative to the 3 times drain and refill.

Then again, for about $120 you can do it yourself. No different than changing your own oil if you have ever done that.

 

I have never done an oil change but, if I can find the directions in how to change the transmission fluid, I can probably get it done myself. Do you know if there is a thread regarding how to change the transmission fluid?? Do you know what kind of oil they use??

So you would say that change the fluid every 25 - 30k ??
Thanks..

 

Honda ZF ATF Fluid.

I know Castrol has an "Multi Vehicle Import Blend" that says it meets Honda ZF specifications. There are others as well too. I think Amsoil claims that too. Not sure, just have to read the label.

 

You'll most likely get differing opinions on this. Kind of like oil change intervals and tire pressures; seems like everyone has their own idea of what's right. I won't comment on when to do it, but it is fairly easy to do yourself. There are threads on how to do the change under the Frequently Asked Questions section. And you can't go wrong by sticking with the Honda ATF.

 

I am a gen2 owner, and your trans is the offspring of our constantly failing units.
I notice yours fail ever sooner than ours- at least I got 68k out of my 1st one, full warranty to 7 years/109 k miles- ordered by the court- you gen3s need to get a class action going soon

The book says 60- but read the fine print about SEVERE driving- such as living on Earth

Note on terms used- acura will say trans flush- meaning manually drain and refill 3 times.
Quickie shops use the word flush to mean a machine hooked up and exchanging fluid while it runs.
Thats NEVER to be done to your TL or kiss that trans goodbye
Read gen2 threads and do the 3x3 ~flush~ NOT JUST DRAIN 3 ADD 3 AND CALL IT GOOD
The trans holds over 7 qts but only gives up 3 qts at a time, you drain 3 add 3 drive 5 minutes- drain 3 add 3 drive 5 minutes drain 3 add 3 done. Thats as good washing out and refilling fresh fluid as you can do.
Its easier than oil change because no filter to deal with
USE ONLY HONDA ZR1 ATF honda dealer (cheaper than acura dealer, same exact stuff) or some private owned import parts store carry it.
Our cars are very picky and honda makes fluids designed for their special needs

 

Yeah, the dealer said they use some machine made by B&G to do the flush and its $280...i'm really stumped as to what to do. I'm afraid to take it anywhere else and i'd rather have the dealer responsible if anything f*cks up.

 

some shop have the same machine and can do it for less than the dealers. I too, do not know whether to have it done at the dealer or a shop.

 

DO NOT USE A MACHINE- Did I say that loud enough ???
A dealer using one is very odd- read the owner book for method 3x3

A drive thru oil change place that will use your fluid is better than that!
As long as they drain 3 add 3 and you pull out and around the block a few times to push out fluid from deep parts of the trans- then back into the bay and drain again
that would be ok
The dealer charges so much because they dont use a drive thru- a tech has to put it on the lift and that take valuable time.

Or invest in a few tools for less overall cost and do it right yourself.
After that, you wont want anyone else touching your car- its too simple to do at home~

 

01tl4tl,
I too use to claim all "flush" machines are bad for Acura, especially the the ones we use to have at the dealership I worked at. Several of the new machines work just fine with the TL and are most likely what the dealership utilizes and has mother Acura's blessing. (Truth be told however, who knows)
Anyway, several of the machines do not actually "pressure flush" the trans - that is what Acura does not want. Rather these machines, simply by the pressure/suction of the trans itself while the engine is running, gather the old oil and then allow new oil/fluid from a second reservoir to be pulled in. They are very effective, non wasteful and give you a near one for one quart swap (not "flush").

Two issues I don't like with them: The typical steep price like the mentioned $230 -$280 above, and the fact they must tap into the trans cooling lines some where. This in turn can introduce both a future leak and or crap into the trans etc..

So, even though you waste a bit of fluid, for about $10 a quart for the Honda ZF you do it yourself - the right way. I used 12 total and a 4 drain and fill process. Actually did it every day after work for 3 days. No you don't need that many miles between fills yet it doesn't hurt either.


Cheers

 

I had an 03' TL-P before I got our 3G 05'. The tranny in our 2G TL bit the dust at 33,000 miles or so.

 

The same lousy fluid whose friction level basically plummets once it is installed and possibly causes a lot of wear.

 

I don't even think the transmission in this generation utilizes an external heat exchanger. It's a self-contained unit that does not allow for the traditional transmission flushing.

The second problem with flushes is that the magnetic drain plug is not cleaned. If you've ever removed the magnetic drain plug on a Honda at the first fluid change, you'll be shocked at the amount of clutch material that you'll find on the magnet. However at subsequent changes, you'll find very little material on there.

That is correct. As part of an Acura servicebulletin for transmission diagnostic (that I either posted on this site or my other forum years ago), the instructions stated that even if the fluid was very discolored, it isn't indicative of any transmission problem.

 

1. Book says 120k I believe for normal, 60k for severe I believe for the first change. Subsequent intervals are shorter. However this is ONLY for the 2nd gen, not the 3rd. The 3rd gen owners are supposed to go by the Maintenance Minder or 60,000 miles (and 30k thereafter) if the vehicle is used for certain operating conditions.

2. Flush will not kill the transmission as long as they don't dump some kind of ex-lax transmission cleaner in there. Even then, I've never seen any evidence of one being linked directly to a transmission failure. It's more hearsay than truth. The bigger problem with a flush is that the magnetic drain plug is not cleaned.

3. Z1 fluid is probably the safest choice for some, but my source at a major OEM is telling me that the Z1 fluid really isn't as great as Honda wants us to think. But I should save that info for another thread.

4. Again, Honda does NOT say that the quadruple (or triple) drain and refill method is necessary for regularly scheduled maintenance. The manual clearly states that the procedure is only need if the transmission was contaminated with the incorrect fluid. The procedure in the factory service manual for a normal transmission service only describes a single drain and refill. I do, however, believe that the multiple drain and refill method is better and will give you better shifting. It isn't absolutely necessary though, according to Honda. But for the sake of accuracy to other forum members and our visitors, I think that we should separate our personal beliefs and the official info from Honda.

 

I think the book maitenance schedule is a bs scam run on govt regulation much like CAFE fuel results!
Most cars need stuff a lot sooner- the govt said "make your cars need less maitenance"- ok thats easy- lengthen the intervals and then make severe service the norm
"Make them get better mileage based on our funky test procedure"-
OK use 5-20 oil and that will give a tiny bit more fuel economy- who cares about engine life

I admit to not knowing current machines and all the honda TSB that are floating around
All I know is the babies get warm when driven spirited and changing the fluid is not going to hurt anything. I do feel a full change out is superior to a 3 qts dilution of 7 quarts of the old stuff
You wouldnt change 2 qts of engine oil or brush/floss half your teeth would you?

I also think acura says drive 5 minutes between drains as that is pushing new fluid into the torque convertor and old fluid towards the pan to be drained out and refreshed. No need to mix the oils- just get rid of the stuff. I admit to little knowledge of the internal pressure systems of the transmission, just what I read and reckon~

 

Have you ever talked to an OEM engineer before? The service intervals go through extensive validation prior to its print. Sure, CAFE may be considered at the beginning as to what fluid/lubricant they want to begin validating with, but ultimately the lubricant must pass the field and bench testing. There are many police cruisers, deliver vehicles, etc running 5w-20 under severe service with over 200k miles on them. Wear with 5w-20 isn't an issue, period.

I did agree with you; see my previous post. However, it is important that we allow others to see the difference between our personal recommendation (and preference) and Acura's official recommendation. It is important that we let others make decisions for themselves, and give them accurate info regarding the official OEM recommendation.

Also, remember that when you change your engine oil you don't change out 100% of it either. Look at the difference between capacity at oil change and at engine overhaul.

The pump does allow the fluid to mix. The manual's flushing procedure involves driving for a "short distance" between drain and refills. I remember a long time ago they said this means going through all gears (0-5) at least three times or something.

 

I learned early on that the maintenance schedules and recommendations were more of a marketing/fuel mileage ploy than anything else.


Screw 5-20 oil. I went to 30wt right away because I don't believe in giving up engine life to get that extra .5mpg. I'm sure the 5-20 will get you through the warranty period and beyond just fine. But what if you get it too hot, what if you get a lot of fuel dilution, what if you have the common pinging issues? Think about oil film thickness and what happens if you get a piece of dirt thicker than the oil film. A good quality 30wt will give you more room for error with no downsides unless those of us that paid nearly $40K for a car can't afford the extra $.05 it costs between fillups. Look at the same car sold in Europe. 10-40 is an acceptable oil for these cars.

Same with the trans. 120,000 miles? That's completely insane. Z1 fluid has been proven with VOA results that it's nothing special and not even synthetic. I wouldn't think about taking even a full synthetic to that interval. I switched to synthetic on my first 30K 3X drain and fill, added a cooler and a real filter, and do a 1X drain and fill at every oil change.

Another point is these cars close the throttles on shifts so you really don't have to worry about harsh shifts when going with a different fluid like older Honda products. I'm running a fluid that is not recommended in a Honda which is Amsoil ATD, their heavy duty Allison fluid. I picked it because besides being a full synthetic, it doesn't have any VIIs which should work very well since the fluid is shared with the diff. This is probably one of the few setups that could truly go 100,000 miles without a service.

 

20wt oils are more shear stable than the 30wts anyway. There are many Crown Vics and other Ford delivery vans running the 5w-20 with no problems. Many of these have over 200k miles and have no excessive engine wear. You should know this from BITOG. It's more of an availability issue in Europe anyway.

Synthetic or dino isn't the problem with Z1. It's the additive package that's a concern.

IF you're going to use Amsoil, use the ATF not the ATD. The ATF was designed to meet Dexron-VI specifications and should perform better, period. Transynd is an older Dexron-III(G) based product that is unlikely to pass the more rigorous friction tests of VI. The VI is also more shear stable than any Dexron III type product.

 

Forgive the bold but I couldn't figure out how to separate the quotes.

 

It's not the highly friction modified that's the problem. It's the friction level which plummets not long after installation that raises concerns about clutch wear.

The concern is with the frictional properties. Dexron-VI fluids will have a more stable frictional level during the life of the fluid and have a more consistent shift feel.

 

MY 01 owner book specifically says drive 15 minutes to warm
drain-refill Drive 5 minutes-drain refill etc
The 5 minutes is stated
I dont know if its in the online book
https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/...01_OMANUAL.asp

I bow to the working scientific oil knowledge of certain members
If this next replacement trans gets more than 12k on it, I will switch to a synthetic and see how it feels
For the engine I run 5-30 all year- west coast weather- Fully Synthetic of course- and when I get around to sending in the last sample, I will decide which brand to stay with or switch

 

I don't have the exact TL manual (link doesn't work) but here's one from another Honda owner's manual:



Note that it says to "flush" the transmission, follow the procedure. In the owner's manual, no where does it say to flush the transmission as part of the normal service procedure.

 

Again, sorry for the bold.

 

That would work. The five minute drive is just to get it to hit all the gears a couple times. If you had it up on a rack with the tires off the ground, you could just accelerate up to 5th a few times and do the next drain. It's just to get the old oil out of the accumulators, valvebody valves and passages, clutchpacks, and pistons so it's important to hit every gear a few times.

 

It has been proven that one fluid cannot work best for every application. As they say, jack of all trades, master of none. There's an SAE paper published on this, I believe. The Z1 fluid just has a friction level that plummets and possibly causes excessive clutch wear. Since Amsoil is confident enough to stand behind its fluid, then why not give it a try.

Not sure if the test results will be of any benefit to you if they are not interpreted properly. I'm not sure if I'd trust anyone but an OE engineer for this task.

 

OK boys, put em back in your pants. Bottom line seems to be (to me anyway) that Honda can recommend pretty much anything they want for service/maintenance, so why would they recommend a product that won't provide the best protection and performance?

 

Don't take this debate the wrong way. We are not arguing or having a pissing match, just a good discussion. On the other forums we visit this type of discussion is normal and good. We actually agree on more than we disagree.

My point with the 5-20 is that it's recommended for CAFE fuel economy standards which the rest of the world doesn't have. If Honda can get every car they sell to get .5mpg better mileage and they sell 500,000 cars, this is very beneficial for them.

The UK recommends a thicker oil and they don't have CAFE telling them what to do. Oil availability isn't an issue there like the some other nations over there.

5-20 is ok for "normal" service, it just leaves no margin for error IMO for when things get heated or things go wrong.

SodaLuvr does bring up a good point. A 5-20 oil is very shear stable. If you take an identical 5-30, it's possible it could shear to a 5-20 over time. A lot of the time but not all the time with oils with a higher numerical spread like a 5-50, there's more of a chance that it will shear to a lower weight with high temperature and load. Not always true but it does happen and Mobil 1 is notorious for this.

The reason I use the straight 30wt synthetic is that it flows good enough cold to be considered a 10-30 but it has no VIIs so this stuff will never shear down. The space that is usually taken by the VIIs is replaced with more actual oil. It's a very robust oil and has shown excellent wear results. The TL seems to love it. If anything the car feels quicker with it and contrary to popular belief, the oil pressure light goes out just as quick if not quicker when I start it in the morning. I live in Cali where I can get away with this. It might not be the best idea in extremely cold climates.

 

An analysis of your oil would be very interesting reading

 

Maybe the product is adequate in their eyes. But to others, the product can be better?

 

No, oil availability is an issue there for weights such as 5w-20. How many Euro manufacturers use a low HT/HS oil?

 

It's too bad I wasn't a member of bobistheoilguy when I was in London a couple years back or I would've checked the stores myself. If it's not available in a place like the UK then it's because it's not needed. If the demand isn't there, why carry it? It's not like they're a third world country and couldn't import it.

As you know most Euro manufacturers use a higher HTHS oil which reinforces my belief that CAFE pushes US automakers into recommending the thin stuff. While the climate is generally milder in the summer than a place like Phonenix or Vegas, they still use a thicker oil. Some of it is driving style, I'm sure. In Greece, everyone thought they were a rally driver and drove accordingly. My ACD has an HTHS of 3.4 which is pretty good but not too thick either.

I've run the 5-20, 5-30, 0-30, and 30 in the TL and have yet to notice a decrease in fuel economy, slower cranking, or an increase in time to get full pressure. In fact pressure seems to come up quicker with the 30wt which brings me to another point... The thin stuff pumps easier so it theoretically should get to moving parts quicker. But, the thick stuff stays in bearings and valvetrain parts while the engine is off and can potentially offer better startup protection before the pressure arrives.

Maybe in 200,000 miles and a few years from now we can revive these posts to see who's right lol.

 

Also, look at the # of long-drain 5w-20 products on the market. The service intervals in Porsche, BMW, etc vehicles tend to be very long and few 5w-20s are up to that task. In addition, some of the Euro applications have engine designs that truly need the higher viscosity oil.

 

Agreed.