Which synthetic oil?
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,192
Likes: 26
From: Pacific NW
You are half right and half wrong. True, synthetic means a process that was created by man and does not occur in nature. However, Group-III synthetics are made by hydrocracking oil. The manner/process of hydrocracking the oil, is created by man and does not occur in nature.
So even tho Group-III are "highly purified" oil, the manner in which it was purified does not occur in nature, and was achieved using a man-made process.
That's why I used the example of reverse-osmosis purified water and distilled water. Group-IV is like distilled water, made from a gas. Group III is like the reverse-osmosis. Reverse-Osmosis yields purified water (refined/etc) water, but reverse-osmosis using a synthetic membrane is a man-made process.
As far as the rest of your argument. I never denied that Amsoil is better, nor did I claim Mobil 1 is superior. I gave reasons why a group IV is better, but I said that doesn't make a group III synthetic a bad oil.
Others were claiming that mobil is charging group IV prices for a group-III oil. Last time I checked Amsoil was more expensive than Mobil-1, which is the same price (at least around here) as other group III synthetics.
Last edited by avs007; Jan 15, 2009 at 11:38 PM.
You are half right and half wrong. True, synthetic means a process that was created by man and does not occur in nature. However, Group-III synthetics are made by hydrocracking oil. The manner/process of hydrocracking the oil, is created by man and does not occur in nature.
So even tho Group-III are "highly purified" oil, the manner in which it was purified does not occur in nature, and was achieved using a man-made process.
That's why I used the example of reverse-osmosis purified water and distilled water. Group-IV is like distilled water, made from a gas. Group III is like the reverse-osmosis. Reverse-Osmosis yields purified water (refined/etc) water, but reverse-osmosis using a synthetic membrane is a man-made process.
As far as the rest of your argument. I never denied that Amsoil is better, nor did I claim Mobil 1 is superior. I gave reasons why a group IV is better, but I said that doesn't make a group III synthetic a bad oil.
Others were claiming that mobil is charging group IV prices for a group-III oil. Last time I checked Amsoil was more expensive than Mobil-1, which is the same price (at least around here) as other group III synthetics.
So even tho Group-III are "highly purified" oil, the manner in which it was purified does not occur in nature, and was achieved using a man-made process.
That's why I used the example of reverse-osmosis purified water and distilled water. Group-IV is like distilled water, made from a gas. Group III is like the reverse-osmosis. Reverse-Osmosis yields purified water (refined/etc) water, but reverse-osmosis using a synthetic membrane is a man-made process.
As far as the rest of your argument. I never denied that Amsoil is better, nor did I claim Mobil 1 is superior. I gave reasons why a group IV is better, but I said that doesn't make a group III synthetic a bad oil.
Others were claiming that mobil is charging group IV prices for a group-III oil. Last time I checked Amsoil was more expensive than Mobil-1, which is the same price (at least around here) as other group III synthetics.
Yes this is the argument that basically won in court and forced them to make 2 defintions of synthetic, one legal and one factual. Pretty sad how manufacturers trick their consumers and the legal system is behind them, but to me if its not made from scratch its not synthetic and I'm sure most people would agree. What's next, calling purified brita water, synthetic because such a filtering process doesn't occur in nature? The water being filtered isn't man made and therefore we just call it filtered water and if you ask me, that's how mobil 1 and GTX should market themselves as well because they didnt make the oil, they just made the filter to purify it.
However, this does not make mobil 1 a bad oil at all, as a matter of fact it is a very good lubricant, far superior than regular oil, and for daily driving its more than enough to protect. But when put up against a true synthetic its not equal thats all.
Actually it is CORRECT, because the true definition of synthetic means something that is not natural and has to be created by man, not highly purified. I understand Mobil 1 fits the legal definition but not the real one of being SYNTHETIC. Lets face it, they rewrote the legal definition of synthetic to make money. They basically changed their ways after once being truly synthetic when they saw Castrol was being allowed to market their purified oil as synthetic. Obviously purified oil is much cheaper to produce than oilt that has to be created. So they tried to file a suit against them but they lost and when they didn't win the case in court, MOBIL 1 decided to jump off the ship and say F this and do the same thing as Castrol, because it obviously is much cheaper just purifying something then creating it from scratch. Just because they legally changed the definition of synthetic does not make it synthetic. And in the entire process you outlined, I understand what you are saying 100% and I know others might get lost in your complicated vocab, however you are basically saying the same thing in fancier terms so lets not spin anything here. We will leave that up to the manufacturers. Simple as this:
There is 2 types of oil, one is PURIFIED OIL that is marketed as being SYNTHETIC which tricks the consumers.
And there is the other that is genuinely synthetic and the only one to my knowledge that fits in this category is AMSOIL and you might be right with the other one you mentioned being in this category as well. I encourage everyone to just google this and the facts are clear as night and day. They did a test with amsoil and mobil 1 so called synthetic and.. the results showed that amsoil (true synthetic) much better than mobil 1 (so called synthetic).
Here's just 2 of the many examples that is available to prove why amosoil is better:
This is showing the protection on a 4 bear wear test. Basically 3 balls put together lubricated with the oil and then a 4th ball placed on top and forced to rotate on it, and the friction and scarring due to it is being measured. Obviously the lower the friction, the lower the scarring and the better the protection from the oil.
This one is showing which oil operates best on frigid temps and cold engines and gives the best protection. Lower the viscosity the better the protection in cold start and protection. Its much easier spraying something like water out then maple syrup.
There is much more info, just search.. and look I didn't have to use fancy terms to explain any of this.
There is 2 types of oil, one is PURIFIED OIL that is marketed as being SYNTHETIC which tricks the consumers.
And there is the other that is genuinely synthetic and the only one to my knowledge that fits in this category is AMSOIL and you might be right with the other one you mentioned being in this category as well. I encourage everyone to just google this and the facts are clear as night and day. They did a test with amsoil and mobil 1 so called synthetic and.. the results showed that amsoil (true synthetic) much better than mobil 1 (so called synthetic).
Here's just 2 of the many examples that is available to prove why amosoil is better:
This is showing the protection on a 4 bear wear test. Basically 3 balls put together lubricated with the oil and then a 4th ball placed on top and forced to rotate on it, and the friction and scarring due to it is being measured. Obviously the lower the friction, the lower the scarring and the better the protection from the oil.
This one is showing which oil operates best on frigid temps and cold engines and gives the best protection. Lower the viscosity the better the protection in cold start and protection. Its much easier spraying something like water out then maple syrup.
There is much more info, just search.. and look I didn't have to use fancy terms to explain any of this.
Wow great info. I'm glad I picked Castrol Syntec out of the other brands available and @ $22 for the 5qts container is a very good deal. Goodbye Mobil1, been good to my cars through the years lol.
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,192
Likes: 26
From: Pacific NW
Again using distilled water as an example... taking the dino oil, getting a gas from it, then creating another liquid with it... Sounds a lot like distilled water. However, that process DOES occur in nature. (Rain anyone?) Creates a bit of a pickle doesn't it?
Again using the reverse osmosis example. The membrane is synthetic, but the reverse-osmosis process itself is also synthetic, because in nature solvents go from from the low concentration side to the high-concentration side (normal osmosis). Reverse osmosis requires great pressure. Such a process wouldn't occur in nature.
So in this example, the "purified water", you didn't create the water, just filtered it.. Using processes that don't occur in nature.... Or you distill the water to "make" the water from a gas... Using a process that DOES occur in a nature.... Quite a conundrum
But yeah, everyone will agree that a Group-IV is typically superior to a Group-III as far as end-product is concerned....
Pro
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 591
Likes: 22
From: San Jose, CA
This is great, alot of learning going on. I noticed in the chart that Castrol Syntec did pretty well and for Cali weather it seems to be a good bang for the buck. It's strange not many recommend Syntec in these oil threads...
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
Actually it is CORRECT, because the true definition of synthetic means something that is not natural and has to be created by man, not highly purified. I understand Mobil 1 fits the legal definition but not the real one of being SYNTHETIC. Lets face it, they rewrote the legal definition of synthetic to make money. They basically changed their ways after once being truly synthetic when they saw Castrol was being allowed to market their purified oil as synthetic. Obviously purified oil is much cheaper to produce than oilt that has to be created. So they tried to file a suit against them but they lost and when they didn't win the case in court, MOBIL 1 decided to jump off the ship and say F this and do the same thing as Castrol, because it obviously is much cheaper just purifying something then creating it from scratch. Just because they legally changed the definition of synthetic does not make it synthetic. And in the entire process you outlined, I understand what you are saying 100% and I know others might get lost in your complicated vocab, however you are basically saying the same thing in fancier terms so lets not spin anything here. We will leave that up to the manufacturers. Simple as this:
There is 2 types of oil, one is PURIFIED OIL that is marketed as being SYNTHETIC which tricks the consumers.
And there is the other that is genuinely synthetic and the only one to my knowledge that fits in this category is AMSOIL and you might be right with the other one you mentioned being in this category as well. I encourage everyone to just google this and the facts are clear as night and day. They did a test with amsoil and mobil 1 so called synthetic and.. the results showed that amsoil (true synthetic) much better than mobil 1 (so called synthetic).
Here's just 2 of the many examples that is available to prove why amosoil is better:
This is showing the protection on a 4 bear wear test. Basically 3 balls put together lubricated with the oil and then a 4th ball placed on top and forced to rotate on it, and the friction and scarring due to it is being measured. Obviously the lower the friction, the lower the scarring and the better the protection from the oil.
This one is showing which oil operates best on frigid temps and cold engines and gives the best protection. Lower the viscosity the better the protection in cold start and protection. Its much easier spraying something like water out then maple syrup.
There is much more info, just search.. and look I didn't have to use fancy terms to explain any of this.
There is 2 types of oil, one is PURIFIED OIL that is marketed as being SYNTHETIC which tricks the consumers.
And there is the other that is genuinely synthetic and the only one to my knowledge that fits in this category is AMSOIL and you might be right with the other one you mentioned being in this category as well. I encourage everyone to just google this and the facts are clear as night and day. They did a test with amsoil and mobil 1 so called synthetic and.. the results showed that amsoil (true synthetic) much better than mobil 1 (so called synthetic).
Here's just 2 of the many examples that is available to prove why amosoil is better:
This is showing the protection on a 4 bear wear test. Basically 3 balls put together lubricated with the oil and then a 4th ball placed on top and forced to rotate on it, and the friction and scarring due to it is being measured. Obviously the lower the friction, the lower the scarring and the better the protection from the oil.
This one is showing which oil operates best on frigid temps and cold engines and gives the best protection. Lower the viscosity the better the protection in cold start and protection. Its much easier spraying something like water out then maple syrup.
There is much more info, just search.. and look I didn't have to use fancy terms to explain any of this.
This will illustrate how a 0w-40 and 0w-20 will still start out at different viscosities at normal cold start conditions.
It will show where a 0w-40 and a 10w-30 overlap and at what temperature.
It's a real eye opener to how the different viscosities behave at different temps.
Since the "w" number is rated at -30 to -35, on a normal 40 degree cold start a 0w-30 can easily be thicker than a 5w-20.
Thats what all BMW's have , but its the best version.
Racer
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Yeah, Castrol Synthetic you get at your local auto store is not the same Castrol BMW uses. Completely different oil.
Speaking of Amsoil, any advice on where to order it online? I use to buy it at Joe's (sporting good store) which provided a 10% military discount. Well, I'm in the middle-of-f@#$ing nowhere Mississippi now so I have no choice but to order it.
I just drove across the country (3,300 miles) plus another 1,200 mile drive to celebrate new years... in addition to another 500 miles or so driving around town. I really need to change my oil.
Speaking of Amsoil, any advice on where to order it online? I use to buy it at Joe's (sporting good store) which provided a 10% military discount. Well, I'm in the middle-of-f@#$ing nowhere Mississippi now so I have no choice but to order it.
I just drove across the country (3,300 miles) plus another 1,200 mile drive to celebrate new years... in addition to another 500 miles or so driving around town. I really need to change my oil.
Yeah, Castrol Synthetic you get at your local auto store is not the same Castrol BMW uses. Completely different oil.
Speaking of Amsoil, any advice on where to order it online? I use to buy it at Joe's (sporting good store) which provided a 10% military discount. Well, I'm in the middle-of-f@#$ing nowhere Mississippi now so I have no choice but to order it.
I just drove across the country (3,300 miles) plus another 1,200 mile drive to celebrate new years... in addition to another 500 miles or so driving around town. I really need to change my oil.
Speaking of Amsoil, any advice on where to order it online? I use to buy it at Joe's (sporting good store) which provided a 10% military discount. Well, I'm in the middle-of-f@#$ing nowhere Mississippi now so I have no choice but to order it.
I just drove across the country (3,300 miles) plus another 1,200 mile drive to celebrate new years... in addition to another 500 miles or so driving around town. I really need to change my oil.
Yeah, Castrol Synthetic you get at your local auto store is not the same Castrol BMW uses. Completely different oil.
Speaking of Amsoil, any advice on where to order it online? I use to buy it at Joe's (sporting good store) which provided a 10% military discount. Well, I'm in the middle-of-f@#$ing nowhere Mississippi now so I have no choice but to order it.
I just drove across the country (3,300 miles) plus another 1,200 mile drive to celebrate new years... in addition to another 500 miles or so driving around town. I really need to change my oil.
Speaking of Amsoil, any advice on where to order it online? I use to buy it at Joe's (sporting good store) which provided a 10% military discount. Well, I'm in the middle-of-f@#$ing nowhere Mississippi now so I have no choice but to order it.
I just drove across the country (3,300 miles) plus another 1,200 mile drive to celebrate new years... in addition to another 500 miles or so driving around town. I really need to change my oil.
Why not just buy it directly from Amsoil.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/default.aspx
AZ Community Team
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 19,131
Likes: 4,767
From: Maryland
I have an 06 TL that just hit 50,000 miles this week. After the first oil change I've always used Mobil One 5-20 weight oil. I've read (on Bob is the oil guy web site) that Mobil has had problems with meeting the API specs. Up till now I've always been loyal to Mobil One (I also always use their Mobil One oil filter) but am considering changing. I hear good things about Pennzoil Platinum oil. Are there any suggestions or concensus among TL users about which oil to use? I like to stick with one oil and not switch around. Thanks. Steve
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