brahtw8

Aren't you running Blizzak LM22s?

Great snow tires and V-rated to boot, but not drag race material on dry pavement.

Careful a G35 with summer rubber doesn't show up on a day when the roads are clear and the temp is decent. (Stranger things have happened in Wisconsin-I had the NSX out two days last week). You won't have a chance from a stop with snows on.

That is the one thing I dislike about having snows, but of course you are supposed to be good until the weather is.

Not to flame or anything, but you seem to have a rather aggressive forum personality these days. I know that sarcasm is king on forums, but I have seen a few things from you in the last week or so that solidfy your "Insane Poster" moniker.

rets

I don't know how good roads WI has... are they always plain and good although it's in winter?

Maybe vtecbrain will get bigger wins when he puts on his summer tires, too.

He may be too busy recently while wearing green and gold in the land of purple. It's the way he relax himself. No offense.

brahtw8

Wisconsin uses a lot of salt, so most major thoroughfares are clear within a day or two of any major snow.

The weather has been on a rollercoaster ride as of late, so good clear roads in the winter are not that uncommon.

Driving like a madman on winter tires, or cold summer tires, is not so good.

Go Pack!

vtechbrain

I like the Jeckyl and Hyde thing. Innocent posters get Jeckyl nasties get Hyde right quick

vtechbrain

Actually the LM's are H rated so you're limited to 130. Obviously, that is sustained speed. When I dusted the WRX I was going 140 before you could say Mississippi. Luckily, the guy had given up at about 120. I can be bold but not nuts, the highways here are bone dry, the byways that's a different story. I tend to be very careful of weather conditions. If you check my gallery youll find some cool picture of the tl on a frozen lake (I guess I can be a little nuts!). Just can't wait to dust a G but chances of finding one up here are very slim. I spent a couple of days in Chicago and I didn't see any there either. I did see one black 04 TL though. How about them Packers HEY??? (I lived in MN for 5 years so I'm sure I have a Viking wig in some closet!)

rets

vtechbrain & brahtw8,

Since you live in the land with tons of salt, what is the best way to clean your car in the winter? How's about the rims and the bottom of car? Do you guys mind providing more useful tips?

I don't want to be out of topic too much, but do apreciate all your answers if possible. Thanks.




vtechbrain, we're ever very impressive your valiancy to spin 04TL over icy lake. Then I feel better after you said lots of F150s are nearby.

vtechbrain

I use a touchless car wash every week. There is no other way. Many of the car washes here use The HANNA type european touchless where a wand goes around your car dispensing soap and high pressure water. I'll occasionaly take it to a tunnel Wash for interior and exterior care.

niko14

It's toooo cold in Winsconsin. Come out to Los Angeles and we can go to the track and you can Whupass on my G35 Coupe which only has a few mods

vtechbrain

I was out there this summer but I think my odyssey would not have cut it!

EZZ

What are you putting down on the wheels. I know a stock G35 Coupe is around 240 rwhp for the manual version.

bfechter

It all depends who is behind the wheel. Thats what it comes down to between these 2 cars.

whalen

The TL is a Touring Sedan, not a dragstrip racer.
Why so many posts about racing other vehicles eg. G-35's, 330i's, etc??
Enjoy your car but please; if all you want to do is race at every traffic light, get yourself a race car or take your car to the strip.

brahtw8

These posts are inevitable on all car forums. Although I agree that street racing is a bad idea, despite having done some stupid things in cars myself, I think this kind of talk is an integral part of the forum.

If we were all completely logical, mellow individuals, it wouldn't be as much fun.

I also think there is nothing wrong with safely exploring the limits of your car, even if potentially inconsistent with your local traffic laws.

niko14

253 rwhp

SteVTEC

You're right. It's probably more like 280/270 because it dynos the same as the coupe and the coupe put down about what it should at the wheels given the hp/tq ratings.

Correction. The pre-release numbers were 180hp and then they backed them down to 175. It was never 185. And it's also extremely difficult to guess crank numbers from chassis dynos because there are sooooooooo many variables. The GS-R probably had what, little lightweight 15" wheels? The SE-R Spec-V has much heavier 17" wheels which most definitely affects the dyno numbers because of all the inertia losses in heavy rims. Put GS-R wheels on the Spec-V and it would most likely dyno the same or higher than the GS-R, about where it should be.

LOL, you've got to be kidding me. :p Enough said.

The best stock G35 6MT times have been 14 flat at 100 mph. The best stock G35 5AT time has been I believe a 14.3 @ around 97 or so. The auto can be darn near as quick as the 6MT in that car due to all the torque. Automagic trannys work best when you have lots of torque. Somebody at Maxima.org just recently ran a new best stock time of 14.4 @ 96 in an 04SE automatic. Yes, automatic. Just a hair behind the G35 due to FWD launch issues but that's it.

The TL is heavier.
The TL's 3.2 has less torque and area under the curve than the Nissan 3.5.
The TL is FWD.

Honestly it's going to be a close race and I'm sure there are people from both sides that will be claiming kills on each other just like the great 02 Maxima vs 02 TL-S/CL-S debates from 2 years ago. But I do think the G35 is going to have the advantage in pretty much any race and that it's going to be a slightly quicker car overall.

I think 0.3s is a bigger difference than you realize. It's about 2 car-lengths in a 1/4 mile race, and it's also very noticeable off the line, say a 2.4 60' time vs a 2.1 60' time. But street races really don't prove that much anyways. Dynos and timeslips do, though.

SteVTEC

LOL, well jrock65 did have a pretty good point. Sure the 3.2 is capable of much more, but I really do think that it's about at the limits for a consumer market production engine.

Just look at the specs. They cranked the compression ratio all the way up to 11.0:1 now which is approaching the limits of what you can safely run on pump gas with an aggressive tune. The S2000 runs the same 11.0:1 CR. I think Toyota's 2ZZ-GE engine (Celica GT-S) running its 11.5:1 CR is running about the highest CR that you'll see at least in a US market engine.

Also, judging from the dyno thread, it looks like Honda has shifted the powerband upwards in favor of more top-end torque (peak horsepower) possibly at some expense of low-end. Not exactly what you want when you're trying to hustle a 3500 lb sedan off the line, but good for improving peak horsepower and marketing numbers at least.

To get anywhere even remotely close to S2000 HP/L numbers, you would need to up the rev limit on the J32 to 9000 rpm like on the S2k, because that's how it makes its power - by revving. I believe the SOHC heads are probably already at about their limits on revs because SOHC valvetrains have a lot more mass than DOHC setups do. That's why DOHCs can rev higher. The lighter your valvetrain mass is, the faster you can spin it before you start to get valve float. To get the J-series revving any higher than it is and have production general market reliability, Honda would need to design a DOHC head for the engine that they don't even have yet. Very expensive to do and certify for production. But even then, what would be the point? The vast majority of TL customers will be buying them with the automatic, and automatics simply do not like higher revving engines. There's a reason why the S2000 has not yet been offered with an automatic. If they did, the mags wouldn't be able to do their 6-8k clutch-drop launches with it and the results would be low-15's and looking horrible.

Want more displacement? The Honda J-series V6s have a 98 mm bore spacings and with an 89 mm bore in the J32 engines it only has a 9 mm cylinder wall which is pretty much at the limit. Can't bore it out much, if anything more. So to get more displacement you need to stroke it. The 3.5L MDX/Pilot/Odyessy J35A3/A4 engines have the same 89 mm bore but I believe a 93 mm stroke. What happens when you stroke an engine? You increase piston speeds, and also engine vibrations and the net result is that your displacement goes up but your rev capability goes down. Piston speed is the enemy of revving capability. I think this is part of the reason why Honda kept the TL at only 3.2L. I was disappointed that it didn't get a 3.5L with torque to match the Nissan products, but I believe this is why.


-------------

Anyhow, now compare all that to the Nissan VQ35DE. It's only running a 10.3:1 compression ratio, still plenty of room to go up if they want to on pump gas. Also, the power bias is still mainly in the low-end and mid-range. If they want to play the peak horsepower game they could by simply biasing it even higher, but for now they have a displacement advantage and don't need to. As far as revving, it's already has a DOHC head that is capable of much much more than the 6600 rpms that they're spinning now. It would be very easy to crank that sucker up to 7500 rpm or more still on a production level engine with consumer reliability in mind. But why would they if they don't have to. Bore spacing on the VQ is 108 mm, much larger than the Honda J engines. So the Nissan engine is a lot more flexible as far as internal configuration goes. Nissan just announced that they're coming out with a VQ40 engine believe it or not for the 2005 Pathfinder. Undoubtedly this will be a stroker engine because even with the VQ35 they're approaching the limit on bore, but there's still plenty of room to go on stroke. And plus truck applications don't need high revs anyways. I heard some rumors about a possible "J38" for the MDX a year or two ago in a major mag, but Honda seems to keep pushing the J35 to the limit instead. I don't even think they could manage a J38 without a "super stroker" sort of engine.

If Nissan were to push their VQ35 as far as Honda has pushed their J32A3, I think the VQ would easily be making in excess of 300hp at the crank.

Oh, as for that G35 manual tranny dyno that was posted earlier, I'd have to say that that's one of the lowest dynos I've seen. I've seen a good number of manual dynos in the 227-232 rwhp range with the automatics only about 10whp lower at 217-220 rwhp or so. With typical "loss" factors on chassis dynos for both auto and manual, that comes out right in the neighborhood of 280hp. That includes the sedan as well, which is only "rated" at 260hp. The sedan and coupe both dyno the same. It appears that Nissan did in fact under-rate the power on the sedan possibly to help separate the coupe from it as a slightly higher performing car. Both cars track about the same speeds as well. Actually, the sedan is slightly lighter believe it or not and does have a slim advantage at the track due to that.


Anyhow, sorry for the long posts. I love engine tech, though.

2k4TLkev

steVTEC...from ur sig..looks like ur a nissan fan...seems like what u wrote... ur in favor of nissan...so cut the crap and if u wanna run my TL im up for it anyday

brahtw8

I don't think there is anything pro-Nissan or anti-Honda about steVTEC's post.

He is simply making the observation that the TL 3.2 comes from the factory in a relatively high state of tune when compared to the relatively under-stressed VQ engines from Nissan.

I don't think that point can be disputed, given their respective compression ratios and displacement.

biomaxdds

you sure do sound like a genius

LVSBB6

Nevertheless, the 3.2 litre SOHC on 2004 TL is the 2nd best engine to date from Honda.

3.2 DOHC is only available in 94up NSX.

brahtw8

91-96 NSX has 3.0 liter DOHC C30A engine

97+ NSX has 3.2 liter DOHC C32A engine

VQ35DE

I'm too certain how you were able to skewer Steve's write up to show Nissan favoritism. From what I read, he was very favorable on his assessment of the J32's potential.

He simply stated both motors' potential WITH respect to the current consumer market demand.

napalm_RENAMED

So I wonder how the 3.2 liter in the TL A-spec Concept is pushing 300+hp and yet at 270hp you're saying it's at it's limit? I remeber seeing a 3.0 J30 Accord Coupe back in like 99 that was pushing over 300 and had top speed of 165+ built by Honda R&D. So um... what was the theory again?

brahtw8

Not at the limit, but ina higher state of tune and closer to the limit of what is desirable for a street car than the VQ engines.

There is a enough legitimate contoversy on this board that we don't need to waste time on misunderstandings.

napalm_RENAMED

Well the impression I get from the A-Spec concept is that it is very streetable and realistic as most of the modifications were done externally to the engine. That is why I don't understand the comment. It wasn't in detail but they said there was very minor modifications to the internals. Also with 3 Catalytic Converters I'm sure there's plenty of backpressure choking exhaust flow. I'm not trying to be an ******* just trying to better understand the statement. I think there is plenty of potential when Honda makes cam grinds and other precise engine mods, no aftermarket can touch some of the stuff that Honda does OEM. They still could do DOHC with iVTec to help things out also. I think the A-Spec Concept shows they might be willing to waste some money on the R&D and tooling for not a big reward, but for the prestige.

brahtw8

There is certainly more power that can be squeezed out of the TL engine.

All I am trying to say is that it not an insult to Honda to say that the TL engine is in a higher state of tune than the VQ engine. Indeed, I would say it is a compliment to their engineering ability.

But, it means that if Nissan could reliably build the VQ to run at 11.5:1 compression and redline at 9000 RPMs, they would have a nice little powerplant. Just like if Honda increased the size to 3.5 liters. The TL has some room to get there as well, but not as much since it is already higher compression and higher redline/peak power. It gets harder as the engines get larger. Hopefully the next HSC/NSX engine will be an example of a normally aspirated powerplant with a ridiculous per liter output, like when the original blew everybody away with 90/liter in 1990.

I have already voted on the G35 vs. TL topic with my wallet.

LVSBB6

Thanks for the correction.

partagas

I hate G35s. That's why I have a 330i and a TL. The G35 is terrible at what each of the others do well. As a handler, it sucks. As a luxury car, it sucks. It's noisy, terrible ride, terrible driver compartment. It goes fast in a straight line. Get in your TL, drive on a fwy to an Infiniti dealer, drive the same route in the G35, huh? Why the hell would you want to drive that noisy bumpy thing again? Yeah, the 330i is noisy and bumpy but oh boy, throw a couple or hard 90 or 180 degree'ers in.

Even with the fun of the 330i, I'm sure that I will let it go at the end of its lease. I just always choose to drive the TL. The torque steer is a PITA but the rest of it is just the best. That include the GS430 we just let go.

2k4TLkev

he say the g35 would edge out the tl in a race....so i say bring it on...thats all i got to say and if you got a problem with that?

niko14

That's why i have the COUPE !!

Not sure if you drove a G35 Coupe, BUT the coupe can out handle the TL and spank your 330i.. Just so you know the G35 Coupe and sedan are different..escpecially when it comes to handling...
The coupe will do a 0.91-g run on the skidpad ! Anyways, I'am also looking at getting the 04 tl this summer when the wifes TL-s lease expires.

niko14

:o

VQ35DE

I guess that's why G35 Sales are so poor...

SteVTEC

My point was that for the purpose of a production federal emissions certified engine that will maintain the reliability standards of the company, Honda is pushing the J32 to the limits.

This A-spec concept, do you think it would pass emissions? Passing a tailpipe or OBD-II smog test is really just a spot check and it's very easy to pass with modifications, even when removing pre-cats and such. But the federal cert tests are much more rigorous and all-inclusive.

And sure, you can get a SOHC running beyond 7k to keep making power, but then you have to run extremely stiff valve springs which will increase friction and decrease your efficiency, mileage, and possibly even engine life.

Driveability? High peak horsepower numbers are nice, but solid power in the low-end and mid-range is what most people need since most don't/won't take the engine right up to redline very frequently, if at all. To bias the engine to keep making more and more top-end, the tradeoff is reduced low-end response (a variable intake manifold helps greatly, but even they have their limits). The car may really rip at full-tilt and perform well at the track, yet feel like a slog in daily driving. What good is that? Plus since most people will want an automatic, the rev-limit need to be kept low enough for this since automatics don't seem to like high-revs very much.

All of these are real-world considerations that are taken very seriously for a production car that will be emissions certified, but can be conveniently ignored for the purpose of making some exciting concept cars to get your customers pumped up.

The bottom line is that yes, the J32 is still capable of more, but I think Honda is quickly approaching the real-world production limits on what they can do with this thing before they're going to need to come out with a new V-6 block, or significantly modify the existing J-series block to accomodate larger displacements. Nissan is not nearly as displacement limited on their VQ block like Honda seems to be on their J-block, therefore Nissan can simply go with larger displacements, but keep them more conservatively tuned and not push them as hard.

Think of it like domestics. The Ford 4.6L 2-valve V8 makes 260hp. People love to bash them for having low HP/L and such, especially import guys, but do you really think that's all it's capable of? It runs a nice and low 9.4:1 compression and low-end biased non-variable intake manifold with conservative ignition timing set for 87 octane fuel. They dyno at about 230 rwhp or so, but can darn near get 300 rwhp all-motor after "fixing" all of that stuff.

partagas

10-4, the coupe is niftier, but a guy with a family and a business with clients can't responsibly drive a coupe. 3 days a week I take a couple of 250 pounders to lunch. No go, even a big 2 door. That's why we got rid of the CL-S. Besides that, the coupe is still way noisy and rides like****.

niko14

That's why I also have a yukon
You are correct about the noisy part, escpecially with my new Nismo Exhaust and HighFlow cats

2k4TLkev

ok so u drive a coupe...and y are u comparing it to a TL which is a 4 dorr...thats 2 different cars...one is 2dr and the other 4 dr..if u wanna compare your coupe compare it with an s2000 or an rx-8 ...of course the coupe has better skidpad numbers b/c its a coupe...lets say i stretch ur stomach and make u fat (to compare to the length and shape of the TL ) would u be able to rotate ur hip or move or turn (skidpad) better and faster? ok than so dont compare the coupe to a 4 dr.

niko14

I can compare any two cars i want, if you don't like it..oh well..There's no acura-tl.com rules that say you can't :p
and by the way the RX-8 has 4 doors

Also the coupe isn't that much shorter than the 04 TL
so there....


TL
Length: 186.2 in. Width: 72.2 in.
Height: 56.7 in. Wheel Base: 107.9 in.

G35 Coupe
Length: 182.2 in. Width: 71.5 in.
Height: 54.8 in. Wheel Base: 112.2 in.



Some folks on this board think their TL can out perform/handle a G35 Sedan/Coupe..Reality folks..It Doesn't, but it does do alot of things well and better than G..that's why i'll be leasing another TL in a few months..

rets

Well, niko14,

I do agree what you said here, ppl can compare to any cars they want, as long as they're in the similar level or category and matched by their preference. IMHO, G35 sedan/coupe vs TL is workable for me 'cause I tested all of them prior to my final decision.

However, I don't think G35 sedan is better than TL, the tons of unharmonious featres/ambience made us irked. We liked G35 coupe more by its appearance, but disliked its inside/hubbub. Most of important things were we didn't like its handling. We drove 330i for car shopping on the same day. It's no competitive, IMO, 04TL isn't better than 330i either.

I know they may be biassed on this car 'cause I test-drove three times 04TLs. The first time was extremely terrible, and I almost crossed out 04TL from my shopping list until the 2nd/3rd test-drives.

When getting my real TL, it's better than what I test-drove "new" TLs. I started to think perhaps G35 will be better if I have chance to test-drive more than one time. TL averages better than G35, however, I couldn't say who's better if you concentrate on performance/handling.

Since G35 is RWD, it should be better. It would be shame if it's not or TL is too good.


It's just my observation.

jdmlover79

i think you don't have any clue either.
come on yo vr4 is awd and maxima is rwd.
it is really posible to put 6-7 car length.


0-15 whp won't make that much difference in 0-60 mph race.
it is more likely other stuff but you don't need 100hp to put 2 car length in 0-60 mph race.




edit: plz guys honda/acura and infiniti/nissan are all great cars.
in handling honda/acura will out perform infiniti/nissan(NSX type-r, biach!!!!) but in the straight drag race infiniti/nissan will dust honda/acura (GT-R, come on now !).
i own both acura and infiniti cars and i have respect to all of honda and nissan cars.

i am comparing stock to stock.

jdmlover79

how about g35c out handle 350z in top gear?
while 350z and m3 put out same lap time.
now you saying your 330 will out handle g35c?
plz man, maybe you don't know how to drive car.