SlayerGTR

overall, i would say the Acura brand name may not be up w/ BMW or MB, or even Lexus or Infiniti, but heres another way u can look at it.

Acuras Flagship RL is a pretty good comparison w/ the Lexus GS and E series and 5 series. But in my opinion, I would say the RL is above those cars, but not as up there as LS430s, S class, and 7 series.

A TL to me would be way above 3 series, but below a 5, way above C but below E. But w/ the price u pay for a TL, it would be the better buy considering u get a lot more for what u paid for. Acura is a lil weird about their "class".

TL Tita

i would consider someone a moron if he spends 90 g on a NSX instead of a GT3. but i think most will agree with me.

brahtw8

I disagree completely.

The Lexus ES is a Toyota Camry
The Lexus RX is a Toyota Highlander
The Lexus GX is a Toyota 4-Runner
The Lexus LX is a Toyota Land Cruiser
Most if not all of the other cars are sold as Toyotas in the rest of the world.

Lexus only exists as a North American brand (although that may be changing)

brahtw8

The 2005 NSX is not the value or performer that it once was. It is however a very fine automobile that is far more capable than you give it credit for. The lease is extremely attractive and the NSX retains its value as well as a 911.

It may be down on performance statistics when compared to a 997 Carrera S, but it remains a unique performance machine that is worthy of respect and far more than the sum of its parts. The experience of driving an NSX is unique, and I encourage you to educate yourself beyond statistics and drive one.

TL Tita

I have driven one man. Dont patronize me. The thing is i dont think its worth 90 g. That is why they are remodelling it. Am i not correct. Educate urself

TL Tita

Umm... no
It exists in parts of Europe and in Asia. I know for a fact that it exists in Korea because when i was there i saw several ES and GS. So educate urself

brahtw8

The HSC has not been confirmed. NSX production is likely to end this year, but I don't know if there has been an official announcement to that effect.

Wow, you drove one once. I am impressed. That you would presume to educate me on the NSX, as an owner and member of the enthusiast community is amusing.

By the way, you stand corrected on your Lexus comment . . .

brahtw8

Those are recent developments, which I alluded to. Lexus was created as a US marketing exercise. That it was successful is the reason that you see Lexus expanding worldwide, and the JDM kids re-badging their old Toyotas (and everything else).

TL Tita

lets get back to the topic... ultimately its really the indiviiduals taste. I thought the interior on the Acura was better than the BMW (i own a 05 530i and a 1998 M3). My TL has a much better interior and also the looks. However, i thikn the TL lack in performace. The torque is too low and i hate the FWD. BUt everytime i look at my car, the more i fall in love with the aspec kit...

chas22

I know some BMW drivers, Lexus drivers and a Hummer driver and no matter what they drove, they still wouldn't have any class!

AXXKicker

overall, the marketing aspects of 'near luxury', 'luxury', 'family', etc. are about targeting their respective demographics.

acura has identified (down to exterior and interior color choices, for example) the target demos for each model.

tsx, tl, rl almost follow their target audiences by decade- tsx in the 20s or early 30s, tl in the 30s or early 40s and rl beyond that.

lets face it- if we wanted what everyone else had, we'd all be driving accords or camrys or whatever.

not being a marketing guy, i dont know the precise mapping of acuras' outlooks.

one tool used by manufacturers and their marketing departments is known as 'branding'. branding is what has slathered harley davidson all over everything from dog collars, to children's bedsheets to ford trucks.

we've all been branded in some ways- at least i have. you begin to identify with your machinery, to an extent and violently (at times) defend your purchases or posessions- which you didn't make, didn't market, didn't design, etc.

branding is what makes us belong to an acura forum and discuss how our vehicles are superior (in some ways) to others.

i'm a member of a cbr1100xx forum and we do the exact same thing.

as far as the actual labels ('near luxury', etc.) i'd have to agree that the buyers help define the market- "who would buy this car?" and then fill in the blank. that seems most logical, at least to me.

which, of course, is the perview of honda/acura.

...

or that could just be the branded person in me talking.

AcuraGT-3

You know nothing. Lexus was launched Globally in 1990. It has expanded since then. The success in the U.S overshadowed its feats in other countries. The ONLY place Lexus is re-badged Toyota, is in Japan, which changes in 2006.

Now, class of car is mostly determined by price. Afterwards, usually engine offereings. Then you have size (dimensions). There are some "Tweeners" which are bigger than their class in size but are in that class. But all major heavy hitters, the cars are about the same price and size. Global cars have different execution than ones sold just in the United States, or only in Japan, or Europe.

(no official term b/c this class is an oxymoron to LUXURY, but poor luxury, is the sub 30k market)
Entry-Level Luxury is the 30-40k market.
Mid-size Luxury is the 40k-60k market.
Large Luxury is the 60k Plus market.
Super Luxury is the V/W 12 100k plus market

Then you will notice.
Entry Level-Some I-4,.Mostly V-6s
Mid-size-Mostly V-6s, Then you HAVE to offer a V-8 to be taken seriously (Vovlo does have a I-5 but the S80 is nowhere near a class or sales leader)
Large Luxury-V-8 or bigger

Size
Entry Level- mostly 175-180Inches long
Mid-size-Mostly 188-192 inches long
Large luxury-Over 196 inches long

Those are STATUS QUO. Clearly there are cars that mix these up or have one or not the other. Some examples.
TSX is luxury badged, bigger than the next class of cars up (3/IS/C) with I-4 only
TL/G35/ES 330 are HUGE for their entry level class, the ES 330 being the longest. All are near the next class up in size but do not offer V-8s and are all cheaper car platform based.
Volvo S80 offers I-5 and turbos and no V-8
Chrysler 300C is large luxury size with poor luxury appointments, but offers a V-8

And there are others.

The Fact is GERMANS created the "classes" of cars and for years most just copied. The Japanese came then (Acura/Lexus/Infintii) with their luxury cars, which were priced in a lower class but SIZED in a bigger classs. When Lexus got a clue that it didn't work in all markets, they stopped trying to reinvent the wheels and mimic German proportions with the IS and GS. The LS always had German proportions and that may have helped.

Today, the TL has said to have "Italian" flair ala Alpha Romeo. The European Auto Culture is still the most influential today.

And there class, is how "class" is determined.

Another simple way to tell, is to check out comparos in car mags. Unless they note it, most comparos have the same class of cars fighting one another.

jtow

ndabunka

AH, are you a COMPLETE idiot or just a partial? The M-series cars are NOT basic 3-series. The TL and the 3-series 330 are "close" in HP but the M3 is another ballgame COMPLETELY

gt1

Feel free to disagree, but I define "luxury" as being priced above of what merchandise should be, considering it's qualities and features. In other words, bad value score. Thus BMW and MB qualify for luxury items, while TL, which is priced just somewhat above Accord, does not.

TheTriads

who cares, BMW drivers will always say BMW > Acura. TL drivers will always say TL > 330ci
to me, coming from 2002 Accord coupe, TL is a damn luxurous car for me.

lindros2

I would say that "official" class is determined by weight, size, price, performance (overall and subjective - not just one thing or another), prestige (subjective), and amenities.

In reality, "class" in Europe is defined by two things:

1. overall type of vehicle (ie: Volkswagen "A-Class" cars are the VW Golf, Seat Leon, etc...)

2. "Insurance class" (which used to be engine horsepower (172HP, 193HP, 207HP, etc.) but is now vehicle weight I believe).

I consider the TL and Lexus ES330 to be in the same class. They're less performance-focused and more entry-level luxury (amenities) focused.

I could have purchased a BMW 530i (completely different "class" for a number of reasons) but decided not to piss away nearly double the cost of the TL.

Now, someone tell me what "class" the Chrysler 300C SRT-8 is in...

crazymjb

A 325 is not in the same class as the TL, its lower. A loaded 330xi on the other hand. I love BMWs, but again, the 330xi with a TL interior would be the best if it cost as much as TLs. In addition, inline engines are better balanced, and the bimmers RWD also helps with launches, plus they have legendary control. Which honda has much in comin with the RL, the MDX, and/or The NSX? Lower end lexi(dunno if thats right) have similarities with toyota, the ES, the LX(which is pretty much identical) and the Avalon, camry and the Higlander.

TL Tita

ur retarded. Only the new 3 series (330i) comes with 255 hp. The e36 comes with 240 and the TL is 270. Im not wrong idiot. On a roll, the car with more hp will pull. At least my M3 couldnt really gain. It was the same if anything. dumbass
u dont even have a M

TL Tita

Oh and FYI, since u are completely ignorant, a 330i zhp (performance package) is faster than a e36 m3. So in terms of speed, yeah the 3 series and the M could be equal

SilverCL225hp

There are a few things we could see to determine the class of a car. The most basic ones are price of the car, the engine displacement, the drivetrain design, with the additional consideration of other minor factors such as exterior size of the car, wheelbase of the car, weight of the car, brand of the car, etc. In the case you and your friend were talking about, I would say TL is one of the competitions of 330i, but not that direct. First, let us look at each car and see the similarities and difference:

BMW 330i has a 3.0L Inline-6 engine producing 255hp, is RWD, costs about $36k to $45k depends on the features. It is about 178" long and 71" wide.

Acura TL has a 3.2L V-6 engine producing 270hp, is FWD, costs about $32k to $36k depends on the navi. It is about 189" long and 72" wide.

As far as the engine performance, TL is definitely a competiton of 330i. But when we look at three other major factors: drivetrain configuration, price, and exterior size, they are not too close to each other. The bimmer is RWD, a typical sports sedan design, when TL is FWD, a family car design. TL is significantly longer than the 3, in fact, TL is considered mid-sized when 3 is a compact. The fully loaded TL is not even as expensive as a bare bone 330i. Then how could you call TL a direct competitor of 330i? I would say there are other cars that are closer to 330i than TL, such as M-B C-class, Audi A4, and Lexus IS. G35 sedan is closer to 330i than TL is, but not yet as close as the other three mentioned above, because of the length difference between G sedan and 3-series sedan. If you consider the price, 325i is more like a competitor of TL and G35 sedan, but 325i has only 215hp, then again, it is not a direct competitor of both. It is very difficult to compare German cars to Japanese ones, because both countries have different basic concepts of making vehicles. I have always tried to make a list to categorize all the vehicles sold in America by class, but I have to admit some vehicles fall into more than one group. For example, S2000 falls into the pure Japanese sports car group(against RX-8, 350Z, Evo), but also falls into the roadster group(against SLK350, Z4). TL is both competitor of 330i and ES330, but it is kind of hard to compare ES330 to 330i. Subaru Legacy GT is like Accord's competition, but as well as TSX's. TSX is like a near-luxury sports sedan group, a competition for 325i and A4 2.0T, but could you compare Legacy GT to 325i? I wouldn't say so. If I have to put them into classes, let me try:

BMW 760Li vs. M-B S600 vs. Audi A8 L 6.0
BMW 750i vs. Infiniti Q45 vs. M-B S430 vs. Lexus LS430 vs. Audi A8 4.2
BMW 545i vs. Infiniti M45 vs. M-B E500 vs. Lexus GS430 vs. Audi A6 4.2
Acura RL vs. BMW 530i vs. Infiniti M35 vs. M-B E350 vs. Lexus GS300
BMW 525i vs. M-B C350 luxury vs. Lexus ES330
Acura TL vs. BMW 330i vs. Infiniti G35 sedan vs. M-B C350 sport vs. Lexus IS350
Acura TSX vs. BMW 325i vs. Audi A4 2.0T vs. M-B C230 K vs. Lexus IS250

MR1

Class is one of those fuzzy terms. People have different definations. It's all good.

Formula 350

Be careful when you are telling people they know nothing... I also thought that Lexus was originally for the U.S. market... and a quick lookup says it is true.... you even have your years wrong.

Some history of Lexus:


Lexus history



There are no Lexus dealers in Japan. The name Lexus was created specifically during 1987 to give Toyota a second marketing channel in the United States. The Japanese company, despite a name for reliability, found it hard to make inroads to the cliquey luxury market, dominated by German, British and American names. The first car to wear the Lexus badge in the States was an upmarket version of the Camry V6. The latest Aristo and Majesta models were launched as Lexus LS 400 and GS 300 in 1998.

Thanks to careful marketing, the cars' sky-high quality shone through and the strategy worked. It was quickly aped by Honda with 'Acura' and Nissan with 'Infinity'. In the States the Lexus image has now been diluted slightly by a re-badged version of the Land Cruiser.