jtow

My friend and I had a very long chat session about the TL vs the new 3 series BMW. He is as much an advocate of BMW as I am for Acura/Honda. He was telling me...........i'll insert some of the text from the chat here:

My friend says:
I don't know about "Less Car",maybe "fewer options",the car is what it is.
Nothin competes with the 3 or the M3 and holds its own ground.
Then I said:
err.. less HP, less interior room, smaller brakes, smaller wheels,
My friend says:
Less than what?
Then I said:
the TL
My friend says:
They aren't even in the same class,shouldn't be compared.
My friend says:
Acura doesn't make anything like the 3. The IS300, Audi A4 / S4, Infinity G35 Coupe and Sedan / Mercedes C Class and BMW are about the same class of car to me.

So my question to the board is what really determines a vehicles "class"?

Brewmaster

There was a huge discussion earlier about whether the TL is a "luxury" or "Near Luxury" class car. However, regardless of what the final outcome of that discussion was (Not that it was ever truly decided ), according to a number of places (car magazines, autombile enthusiasts, insurance companies, manufacturers, etc.) The most common denominators for vehicle class would seem to be price, size, level of performance (sports, luxury, utility, etc.) and body style.

That being said a mid 30s, 4 door, sport tuned sedan, with 270HP may or may not be in the same class as a BMW3. (hmm 2006 is mid 30s, 4 door, sport tuned sedan with 255 hp)

Big diff is the BMW is rear wheel drive and does have more notoriety (from an era that I feel is long gone, but they are trying desparately to regain) they also have worse resale and worse quality.

So your friend may be right ... the BMW may not be in the same class as the Acura TL.

cM3go

Class is usually determined based on price and sometimes size. This is a problem since some companies offer higher class vehicles (more feature loaded) at value prices, such as Acura.

J RIDE 81

Your friend is a moron.

Brewmaster

AdamNJ

They can't be in the same class...that is why a few months ago i remember reading a post where someone went to a research focus group where they asked a lot about the TL...later he found out it was research by BMW.

mxtt

Do BMW drivers report rattles, etc?

TLTrance

Werd werd.

rets

The class he was talking about is probably "museology", "handling", "German prestige", etc. I would say 3 is awesome, one of my favorites. But I need something better than that for now. Btw, he forgot to add GS models there.

crazymjb

Hes wrong. The TL is definatly in the same class as the Beamer. Beamers are nice, but the 330 is nothin special. the M3 is of a higher class then the TL. As far as luxery is concerned, we have the same stuff as BMW. MB is the true lexury. 24 way serats all around, ventilated seats, electronic everything. But I consider something with leather, heated seats, power most stuff, xenons, sat radio, blutooth, and navigation to be luxery.

Repecat

Wrong again! Beamers have only two wheels and can only carry one passenger, except for sidecars. Now Bimmers, at least the 3 series, are in the same "class" as the TL, namely "near luxury", which is generally defined by auto journalists, rightly or wrongly. The RL and BMW 5,6, and 7 series are considered to be luxury. I'm sure that all cars, in the eyes of some, transcend these artificial boundaries.

cM3go

FYI

Beamer = BMW Motorcycles
Bimmer = BMW Cars

TL Tita

Thanks. Haha i was gonna jump and fix the common misconception
But no the acuras will never be in the same class at least by everyday people as the BIMMERS bc of the fact that acuras are hondas. BUt there are a few ppyl out there who believes that the Tl is in the same class as the 3 series. I agree with u on this but still its okay for ur ignorant friend to think of that way bc its fairly common. Im gonna test drive the new 3 seris this weekend. I think the new 3 series exceeds the TL just bc of the new looks and the technology behind it. Push start button, HFL, NAvi, SMG, etc. Yes acurra has most of these features too but bmw will always be bmw. IM actually regretting on getting my TL bc i hate the FWD. But thats just me. Heres the thing though... TL>>> e46 3 series...

crazymjb

Thanks, I have heard bimmer once, but commonly hear beamer. I figured maybe bimmer was some explitive so I'd be careful while posting(someone had an SN Bimmerpride(and a few numbers). But now that that is clarified, I will go around correcting people and make myself feel like I am at a higher level then them all. So that 50s BMW 3 or 4 wheeled scooter thingie that had an interior and is thought to have saved that company is classified as a(it was on classic car and driver)??

TL Tita

Whatever floats ur boat. But coming from a M3, i knew that TL was gonna lack in power bc of the FWD but on a roll the TL is faster. But still, miss the RWD on the M
Get whatever u like better. Drive em both

crazymjb

Wait, the TL out does the M3 on a roll? From what speed? Thats crazy!!!

Batman-JGII

I was thinking about this the other day and I would love to hear your feedback. IMO classes of cars use to be very simple to define but now it’s all jacked up. I think it all depends on the characteristics you want to use to define a class. I tend to use length and performance. For example anything that is less than 190in to me can't be considered luxury. Anything from 190in to 195in I would call a med sized luxury car and anything larger than 195in I would call a full size luxury car. So based on my logic (even if it is flawed) I would not compare the 3 series to the TL. My comparisons would look like the following:

3 Series = TSX = C Class = S40. All what I consider Sport Coupes or Sport Sedans.

5 Series = TL = E Class = GS = G35 = M35. All what I consider Midsize Sport Luxury Coupes or Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.

7 Series = S Class = Lexus LS = Q45. All what I consider Full-size Sport Luxury Coupes or Full-size Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.

If you noticed the RL is not in my list. I think this is why the car is not selling because it is caught between two markets. It is not big enough nor powerful enough to compete in the full-size sport luxury market and it is too big and not powerful enough to compete in the midsize sport luxury market leaving it a$$ out. So what you guys think

EZZ

No it doesn't....at least post 95 anyway. The m3 is faster from any speed (including the e36 m3).

TL Tita

Sure it does. On a roll, the hp prevails. The TL has no chance in a launch though. Um do u own a M3? BC i do and im telling u the 270 hp def pulled the M

TL Tita

Um yeah of course the e46 or the e90 is faster. But the e36 dosnt pull on a TL from a roll, say like 60 or so. It will be dead even and if anything the TL will pull. But my M was heavily modded and yes the M are fun to mod

EZZ

The e36 m3 is pretty quick. I've seen some trap higher than 100. Since you own both, I will defer to your experience but the linear power band of the m3 makes it hard to judge on a butt dyno I've played with m3s and TLs and I thought the M3 was really quick but again, I didn't know if he was stock or not.

MR1

I think it partially marketing and perception of the intended buying group. Most have a price point, size range and a desired feature set before shopping. For me the 3 Series and the TL were cross shopped. If it fit in the price point, the 5 Series would have been a better comparison to the TL based on size and performance. The 3 is lacking as a 325 or 330 in most aspects except 10/10's performance (handling). Also, as we all know with similar equipment, its more expensive. The 3 Series is in the same class but holds up the bottom however is German and RWD for whatever that's worth to an individual.

rets

Good points, MR1

jtow

I would have to agree with everything you say. I say forget price, price determines value not class. Is an NSX in the same class as a E class benz? Of course not, what the car was built for is totally different, the size mid engine vs. front engine, etc.. these are things that you look at automatically when determining the Class of a vehicle. Now, take your typical 4 door 3 series, a C Class Benz and an Acura TSX; close to the same HP, overall sizes, wheelbase, interior room is close..not exact but close, options on base models are about the same on all three cars. So why aren't they in the same class? or are they? Perhaps BMW and Mercedes owners who could end up paying 20k to 30k more for their entry level sedans can sleep at night believing that their car is in a different class.

TL Tita

i just dont think u can put acuras in the same class as bmws. U can talk about performances or whatever, but the names say it all...

MR1

If this is true for you, fine. Can we then consider you a brand shopper? Does price=class? What are you basing your conclusion on?

Repecat

Some of your logic escapes me. You stated that anything less than 190 inches in length was not luxury. The TL is 189 inches long, yet you put it in your sport luxury sedan class. Kind of contradictory it seems. Perhaps you should adjust your parameters.

Pro Stock John

I think the TL is as nice, or nicer, than a 330i sedan. Now that it's been restyled, the 3 series might be nicer, but I have not seen one. I passed on a 2005 330i because the back seat area had no leg room, and the 330xi was about $40K. RWD 3 and 5 series are terrible in snow, just ask some owners.

jtow

I uploaded a side by side comparison with the TL and the 2006 BMW 3. It was taken from the msn auto site.

Side By Side Comparison

EpiK

Does that mean Lexus is not in the same class either because they are Toyotas?

Basically, if you have a set amount of money you want to spend and know the type of car you want (SUV, Sport Sedan, pickup, whatever...) then anything you shop in that style and price range is theoretically in the same "class". End of story.

If you wanted a $35K sports sedan and shopped the TL, 325i, c230, Saab 93, G35, and Maxima, then OF COURSE they are all in the same class. Do people think some brands have a better reputation? Of course! But that doesn't mean those cars aren't in the same class as the rest. The Maxima has less "prestige" than the BMW, but what you lose in prestige, you gain in interior space and engine size. Go with the BMW, you get a more fun to drive car, and a luxury label, but end up with a smaller car. However, at the end of the day they are both $35K sport sedans and are shopped by people looking for those. Hence they are in the same class.

So what I did was make a short story long, and in summary: ABSOLUTELY the TL and the BMW 325/330 are in the same class.

jtow

TSX vs. '06 BMW 325i



Length (in.)

'05 Acura TSX: 183.30
'06 BMW 325i: 178.20

If someone can tell me why I would want a BMW 325i over my TL, I'm saying forget about the price, just tell me how it's better... i'm willing to learn, just come with some FACTS.

brahtw8

Since were being overly correct . . .

A Beemer is a BMW motorcycle.

The discussion of car class is semantics. No absolute, objective answer exists.

The 3rd Gen TL is roughly equal to an E36 M3 in straightline speed. The M3 has an advantage from a stop due to the superior launch ability of RWD. The TL has a better chance from a roll. It is a driver's race, not that real driver's care about such 'races'.

***EL*MAFIOSO***

...all I know is that I love my TL and I still haven't come up to a light and thought, "Damn, I wish I would've bought that instead!"

Honestly, whether it's because I think my TL looks better than that car next to me or because of the satisfaction that my TL is paid for (plus all the goodies on it, too ), I've never felt any regret on my decision. Now, of course, I'd love to have a BMW 7 series, or a MB E600, or an NSX, or an F50, but that list can go on and on and any one of those vehicles would not satisfy all my needs (you know, practicality, price, etc.). So, I'm happy with my Type-S and the only thing I "wish" I had is everlasting mileage!

MR1

Looks again like same class to me.
I assume new BMW body which compares quite well with the TL in size and rear leg room. I's still take my TL.

MattT516

I have an '03 TL-S and my friend has an '04 325i, and whenever he comes into my car he compliments what is in it and how much better some aspects of the TL are compared to his own vehicle. He even suggests that my car has more comfortable seats than his, and he loves the room the backseat offers. I'd take the TL over a 325i in a heartbeat, when people buy BMWs below the 330i (or Mercedes' in the C-class range, for that matter) they are looking for prestige more than an all-around affordable and solid automobile. For the original poster, I could say your friend is little more than someone who is clearly biased towards german cars because of how expensive and prestigious the name is.

And for the other guy, I'd say the 5-series BMW, especially the 530i and 545i, is in another class compared to the TL.

brahtw8

The BMW has superior steering feel and handling characteristics. It is better balanced and has better weight distribution F/R.

For most people who don't drive 7/10s or above, these things don't matter. For those who do, the TL is simply too large, too heavy, particulary in the nose, and has too much power going through the front wheels.

Batman-JGII

189.3 to be exact.
You are right. I guess I should have said "around" that target.

TL Tita

I knew u were gonna say that and i have to say that acuras are hondas but lexus are not toyotas. They are in completely different leagues and everyone agrees. Acuras are not much diffrent than hondas in terms of performance and such. No toyota is remotely close to be like the gs430 or something.

TL Tita

RWD>>>>>FWd
thats why the bmw is ahead of acuras. PLus BMW has done well with their Ms. Acuras.... well s2k and rsx? Differnt league. Same as the NSX. No moron would pay 90 gs for a nsx. Personally i would go with the gt 3 with that money

MR1

OK but that's just your opinion. Why so judgemental? Everyone that disagrees with you is a moron??