Champcar1

I had my oil changed yesterday after patiently waiting for the MID to let me know when it thought was time. It got down to <20% and I had accumulated right at 8000 miles since the last change. My patience ran out and I decided to go ahead and take it in and get it changed. This 8000 miles included a 2500 mile trip in December. I had been checking the oil routinely and the level was ok but the oil was looking pretty dirty on the dip stick. When my mechanic and I looked at the oil after it was drained, it was absolutely filthy black. He and I both agreed that the MID was not really the way to go and I and I am going back to the old school method of 3 months or 3000 miles regardless of what the MID says. I am going to go ahead and allow the MID to do it's thing and reset it only when when it thinks it's due so it doesn't screw up all the other maintenace due items. But I am not going to change the oil based on what it says.
Anyone else have a similar experience?

HEK

8K...wow I don't think even if I had used synthetic I would go that far in between changes, IMO the MID is only a tool to let you know "about" how much time you have left to get your next oil change.
I just changed the wife's oil and filter on her '05 Ody, it was at 20% life with 4300 miles on the odometer and I will say that the oil was pretty dirty but the filter was not as bad as you described yours.
I have 1100 miles on my TL and will probably change the oil at 4K (or around that) and switch to synthetic, then I can go to 5 or 6K between changes but never 8K, again IMO it's such a simple thing to do to your car to preserve it, that doing it more often than recommended it is not a big deal for me to do..

Champcar1

Exactly. I would normally have never let it go that far, but I just wanted to see how far it would go. It may have gone to 10k, who knows? I finally got nervous and had it changed. Never again.

TheTriads

I got Mobil 1 on mine. I change it every 7500miles regardless what MID said. My method > MID method.

apwalsh

Acura actually told me not to have it changed until the MID tells me. Since I will not keep this car after the term, and Acura changes my oil for free anyway, I go by what they say. If I was keeping the car, I would also change at the normal 3K interval instead of what the computer says.

crazymjb

Could you go by the mid if you got that new 15k oil?

dodgerblue

I have about 1200 miles on my TL but have had the car for 5 months now (I have not driven it very much). MID says it has 80% oil life left. Should I change it out now to get out the break-in debris in the factory oil, or wait a little longer? I wonder if the oil is already dirty...if I follow the MID and wait till it tells me to bring it in for service, the car may already be one year old based on my driving pattern/frequency.

Also, when I called my dealer yesterday, he said that they put in Pennzoil 5W-30 in the TL's...is that stuff any good for our car? Someone on this board had recommended that I use Havoline 5W-20 and bring it in to the dealer myself and ask them to put it in. Should I go with conventional now or synthetic? What are the benefits of synthetic?

HEK

I think if you check your dipstick you can have a pretty good idea as to how dirty the oil is....black= dirty, honey color = good.
IMO if I can find Mobil1 5W-20 in a 5QT container when I'm ready to do my 1st oil change I will buy it but if not 5W-30 will do....

Road Rage

"Looking" at the oil is a meaningless technique to evaluate oil integrity - the 3K oil change is a dinosaur - 2500 miles of highway driving is very easy on the oil by the way - the oil is supposed to get dirty - the best thing to do is set an oil change interval (OCI) based on analysis - you won't waste oil at one extreme, or lead to premature wear at the other. The 3K OCI results in billions of wasted quarts of oil annually, and is a significant environmental hazard.

SodaLuvr

Dodgerblue,
From what you've explained to me, you have a pretty interesting dealer. They told you that they have PZ 5w-10 and 5w-30 avaliable? I laughed uncontrollably when I read that, but, perhaps it was a typo?

I seriously doubt they'd dump PZ 5w-30 in your car for warranty reasons. But knowing that your dealer would change your oil right now @1200 miles for you (against factory recommendations), I'm not so suprised.

Heh, if this was a Toyo and there was no warning on doing oil change early, sure, I'd dump a syn in there immediately, maybe even when I get home. (Someone did this on Bobistheoilguy on their 05 Mustang GT @50 miles with no problems). However, given Honda's recommendation, it'd be wise to run a conventional motor oil for another 6K @3K intervals to flush out the wear metals leftover from the break-in period. After all, this engine does seem to generate higher wear metals than most engines, plus, I wouldn't run drains longer than 3-5K during the first 10K or any engine's life due to wear-in.

Yes, PZ 5w-30 would be fine, but I'd still recommend heading over to Wallyworld and picking up some Havoline 5w-20 @ $1.42/quart to be safe, since it more closely resembles the factory fill than PZ.

Michael

SodaLuvr

Judging from the Virgin Oil Analysis (VOAs) of this oil, I wouldn't hesitate to run it according to intervals according to the MID. This oil is fairly robust. However, I still advise doing a UOA (Used Oil Analysis) since your filter may not be able to handle the interval, thus, you may have to use a better oil filter.

Michael

SodaLuvr

Why not dump it now? Get rid of all that copper, silicon, and other wear metals?

Just use Havoline 5w-20 for a few 3K intervals to flush everything out, then 5-6K drains using Havoline 5w-20 with Lube Control and a PureOne filter shouldn't be difficult under most conditions.

As always, analyze your oil to confirm. Whether you believe it or not, just because its a synthetic does not mean that it can go 5-6 under all conditions.

Michael

SodaLuvr

Mechanics=3K/3mo rule, they've got boat payments, kids to send to college, etc.

Remember, just like RR said, dark does NOT equal expired. Still 8K is a long interval, but 10K on dino oil is possible on a clean engine with a quality dino, good filter, and LC/FP.

Yes, 8K is a long time on dino oil, and without oil analysis I would not feel comfortable running it this long, but I wouldn't just go back to 3K intervals because of that. Instead, I'd run the oil for 5K next time and have it analyzed, and see if the oil is capable of going 7-8K under your conditions. If it is, then do it. Although doing an analysis costs $20-$30, as much as one oil change, it'd pay for itself based on the money you save overtime by preventing needless oil changes.

Again, more often does NOT equal better. Engines still get dirty at 3K drains, tons of 'em, I see them all the time. That's why I recommend using LC/FP.

Michael

HEK

I've owned Hondas since I graduated High School back in '77 and since have kept (until recently) most of my cars for well over the 250,000 miles, gettting rid of them mostly for rust problems or accidents rather than engine problems and again IMO with today's technologies in both making new engines and oils I will stick to what has worked for me all these years without having to have my oils tested for "whatever"......it's like getting tested for AIDs even thou your in a monogamous relationship with your wife... , why?

SodaLuvr

Hek,
No offense here, but please try to have a more open view toward things. After all, what worked for you in the past may not work for you in the present. Cars have changed a lot since 1977, don't you agree? So have engines and the way that they have been manufactured. Today's engines have less blow-by then they have in the past, run cleaner, allowing longer drains with careful montioring.

I really think your wife/aids example is somewhat lame, since it doesn't seem to fit this example very well.

But let me give you some examples of why you should have your oil analyzed. For example, if you have a poor sealing air filter that is allowing some dirt to pass into the engine, it literally "eats away" your bearings and other parts of your engine, same applies to tiny leaks in the intake system that you wouldn't know about unless you analyzed your oil. Another reason is that engines do have buildup over time, and eventually, will affect the performance of the oil. The oil will be severely stressed under these conditions, thus, reducing its life. By knowing that through oil analysis, you will be able to take some form of corrective action (Auto-RX or LC) to clean-up the engine. Those are just some examples.

MIchael

SodaLuvr

To add, a particle count is a better way of determining whether your oil is actually "dirty." But nevertheless, dirty oil does not necessairly equal "expired oil."

Michael

crazymjb

Ill prolly go by the 3k, maybe use a synthetic and go a little further, who knows. Do they have any good oil filters as short as the ones these cars use?

SodaLuvr

Yes, Purolator PureOne.

Honestly, there is no benefit of a synthetic over a dino oil 90% of the time. I really don't see why a synthetic is necessary unless you'd like to extend drains. Even then, a clean engine with no dirt injestion problems can usually go 7-10K on a quality dino, a good filter, with Lube Control and Fuel Power.

Michael

dAveSPEC

So where do you go to get an Oil Analysis done? I plan on putting Mobil 1 synthetic in for my first change at around 5K. I do alot of highway driving to work almost 60 miles a day round trip with a little traffic. I'm just curious as to how my oil is realistically performing.

Any recommendations?

Thanks.

SodaLuvr

I was just writing this to send to someone in a PM but I'm too lazy to edit this to "fit the board." Here it is though:

Blackstone is the most popular lab on Bobistheoilguy.com (BITOG), mainly because of its relatively fast service, accurate results, and its value when it comes to a professional’s interpretation. Terry Dyson is a well-known professional tribologist in the industry, and offers a professional interpretation of your oil analysis results for $20 if you had the oil tested at the lab of your choice, or $35 will cover a Blackstone Oil Analysis with TBN (Total Base Number, amount of active additive left in the oil) along with Terry’s interpretation (known as the Dyson Analysis package). Normally, Blackstone charges $20 per analysis without TBN, or $30 per analysis with TBN. Blackstone’s TBN method is slightly different than the other two labs, Butler and Oil Analyzers, Inc., since Butler uses the Dexil method (basically a pH strip) and Oil Analyzers, Inc. uses the D-2896 method. Instead, Blackstone uses the D-4739 method for measuring the TBN, which is a titration type method that often turns back readings that are on average, 1.5-2 points lower than a TBN that you’d get from the D-2896 or Dexil method. To me, I’d rather have the Dexil or D-2896 method of measuring the TBN since often times, when an oil’s TBN reads 0 on the Blackstone scale; it actually has plenty of life left still since it may still read 2-2.5 on the Dexil or D-2896 scale.

Blackstone stands out from other labs because of mainly because of the great value of the $35 Dyson Analysis Package. Other than that, Blackstone is the most expensive lab. However, it does stand out from Butler and Oil Analyzers, Inc. because they test for insolubles and flashpoint, which Butler and Oil Analyzers, Inc. do not. The insolubles test is a measurement of the solids in the oil, mainly from blow-by, sludge precursors, as well as poor filtration. The insolubles test is simply an easier way of telling you how well your filter is doing. The flashpoint basically explains itself, but is lowered by fuel dilution that gets into the oil. Ideally, we like the Flashpoint to be around 400F. To purchase Blackstone’s testing kits, go to blackstone-labs.com.

Butler Labs is a Caterpillar certified lab that is a new site sponsor on BITOG. Although Blackstone is still the most popular lab, Butler is quickly gaining ground due to its lower prices, accurate results, rapid turnaround time, excellent service, and FTIR testing. Butler also has an agreement with Terry Dyson to provide an analysis with TBN using the Dexil method and Terry’s interpretation, but at a higher price, $40. The FTIR testing basically involves testing for Oxidation (heat, sludge precursors, varnish) and Nitration (dirt, need for a tune-up, carbon buildup). FTIR also tests for Sulfur, Soot, and the amount of Anti-Wear additive remaining. Honestly, I believe that Butler’s test is more comprehensive that Blackstone’s test, but I still recommend getting Blackstone to test your oil occasionally so that you may get the insolubles reading.

Normally, Butler charges $12.50 per analysis without TBN and $22.50 per analysis with TBN. If you purchase from Butler’s store on E-Bay, the $3.85 shipping charge covers up to 10 kits, and they never expire, so it’s better to buy a larger quantity each time to minimize shipping charges. Just to mention, Mark told me personally that they haven’t had a price increase for a while, and they’re due to have one soon, so purchase before their price goes up. To purchase, click on the “Butler CAT” link on the front page of BITOG.

Lastly, Oil Analyzers, Inc. is not much different from Butler, except that they do not have an agreement with Terry for a professional analysis. They are however, closely related to Amsoil. Oil Analyzers themselves do not do the testing, instead they contract out to the Ohio CTC lab. But Oil Analyzer’s huge advantage is its price. At $15.20 per kit with TBN, it’s hard to be beat. Though note that the $15.20 price is at dealer cost, so you must either have a preferred membership or purchase from a dealer who is willing to sell it to you at dealer cost to obtain that price. There are some current sales I know of. If you PM me, I can give you the details. I don't want this post to sound like a commercial because I have no financial interest in any of these sources.

Hope that answers your question in regards to oil analysis.

Michael

Aegir

I don't see any evidence here that there is a problem with the change intervals recommended by the MID. I think it was very responsible of Honda to develop a system that bases change interval recommendations on actual operating conditions. It would have been easy to maintain the status quo and recommend conservatively short intervals - but they didn't do that. I hope other manufacturers follow their lead because it will be good for all of us in the long run.

<environmental rant>The U.S. uses hundreds of millions of gallons of motor oil every year. A lot of that consumption is driven by overly conservative 'severe service' intervals developed by many auto manufacturer and pushed by their dealers, or oil change practices that 'Dad' taught us. Consumption is a problem, but disposal problems are more serious. Used oil has to go somewhere. Despite numerous education campaigns, about 200 million gallons of used oil are dumped per year. Even when collected, waste oil and other byproducts from reprocessing, re-refining, and disposal are inevitable. With a scale in the hundreds of millions of gallons, even efficient recycling processes produce huge amounts of waste.

Providing consumers with better oils and better engines should result in longer change intervals. Industry-wide adoption of systems that determine change intervals based on actual operating conditions would contribute to lower consumption and less hazardous waste to deal with - a lot less than if everyone continues to follow 'Dad's advice'. </environmental rant>

JohnDoe2

The MID suggested interval is trustworthy, it even has tolerance built in.

>>When my mechanic and I looked at the oil after it was drained, it was >>absolutely filthy black. He and I both agreed that the MID was not really >>the way to go and I and....

Oil will "look dirty" after only a few hundred miles. The mechanic is an idiot.

The downsides to changing your oil too often is wasting your time and money, stressing the threads on the oil plug and running the risk of the mechanic screwing something else up. It's not going to make the car last longer (the tranny will die before the engine).

HEK

Michael,
No offense taken, but I'm not going to argue any of your points on the issue of having your oil analyzed, I will just stick to the topic of changing your oil based on MID. I also believe that as cars have become more computerized, the information given on the ECU error code can tell me what's wrong with the car, if there as anything wrong to beging with.
An just out of curiousity, please don't think I'm being an ass by asking, but do you send your oil to be analized everytime you change it, therefore you're cost per oil changed doubled? and once you got a report back, what changes have you made to your car to "fix" what the report said could become an issue if not corrected.
One other thing, in shipping the oil to the LAB where do you get a MSDS (material safety data sheet) which is required by most carriers that carry WASTE.

Thanks

SodaLuvr

/ Hek,
I don't have my oil analyzed everytime I change it unless I'm trying to track a problem. That'd be an overkill. I usually recommend doing an initial sample with that particular oil, filter, driving conditions, and interval. Then, if my results are satisfactory, then I usually recommend resampling every 2-3 oil changes.

Yes, I've seen many problems that have otherwise not been corrected if I did not have the oil analyzed. For example, an intake leak somewhere. If I had not seen the elevated levels of Silicon (dirt), then I would not have known that there was an intake leak somewhere in the car. On the other hand, if I had not seen the elevated levels of nitration, I would not have known that my spark plugs and wires had already required replacement. Lastly, I would not have known that I needed to Auto-RX if I had not seen the elevated Oxidation readings. Those are just some examples of problems that are always being corrected upon seeing the results of oil analysis. Whether you believe it or not, at least half of the oil analysis reports that we see on Bobistheoilguy (BITOG) have some type of Dirt Ingestion problem. They are usually so minor that they are undetectable without oil analysis, but dirt practically eats away your engine since it is so abrasive, it really affects the upper-end wear (Al, Cr, Fe, Cu).

Lastly, there is no need for a MSDS to mail your sample. If you want one, they're on the oil manufacturer's website. The containers that the lab supplies you with when you purchase their kits have been certified to transport oil samples. We rarely have problems with the post office asking for a MSDS before willing to mail our oil samples.

Hope this answers your questions,
Michael

HEK

Thanks for the reply, I may one day do as you suggested to see what type of results I get (maybe when the warranty expires... ) ...I will save this thread for the data you supplied...

Merci, arigato, gracias

Legend2TL

I agree, oil analysis looks neat but costs about the same as a Honda OEM filter and 5 quarts of Castrol GTX and changing the oil/filter myself.

Engines and transmissions have changed but the low cost insurance of filter/lubricant replacement makes more sense than having my oil analyzed.