kng

first of all, i have to say that i started my new car search wanting a '04 tl 6MT/navi. i have been reading this forum for over two months in anticipation on my car. i actually still have deposits (which i must now recover) at 2 dealers for an anthracite. this process of waiting - acura's first downfall - gave me time and reason to consider my options. so last night after work, i decided to head to the local volvo dealer just to inquire about the s60r. i have been interested in this car since last summer when my wife and i were deciding between the v70r and the porsche cayenne s(we ended up with a cayenne).

so armed with my previous knowledge of the car and the tl, i cut to the chase and told him my exact predicament about waiting for the tl and liking the s60r but thinking it was too expensive - unless he made me a deal. the deal i got was $40k for a $42k s60r which they normally don't discount. after playing with the financing options including trading my '00 audi s4, i realized that my real cost was essentially the same as the tl (because i stretched the payments over 84 months for the lowest monthly rate whereas previously i was looking at financing the tl for 60 months so the payments looked the same to me; either car i would have probably paid it off in a couple years anyways - my goal was a monthly payment of less than $400). once the cost issue was taken care, it was car vs. car which i assessed like this:

1. engine - volvo (i came from an s4 and this to me is even faster)
2. handling - volvo (all wheel drive with the adjustable active suspension is sweet)
3. exterior - volvo (only because the s60r is more rare and the 18" rims with brembo calipers front/back look awesome)
4. interior - acura (because of all the bells and whistles)
5. room - tie (surprisingly per edmunds the tl has only 1" more rear legroom; going against the tl, it's rear seats don't fold flat which is ridiculous to me)
6. fuel economy - acura (but this is close too, per edmunds the tl is 19/28 and the s60r 18/25 but the stickers on the tl say 20/30? which is it?)
7. cost of ownership - acura (this is a no brainer because a tl is a honda - so to protect myself i bought the extended warranty to 7 years/100k; i also found out last night that volvo's pay for ALL maintenance to 30k for free including oil changes which is nice)
8. safety - volvo (this is in no way saying the acura is unsafe by any means but this is a volvo with all wheel drive and i have a baby coming)

in the end, it came down to the fact that with the tl i wanted -6MT/navi plus all the options like backup sensor, deck spoiler, protection package, and extended warranty - i was looking at almost $38k. ultimately i paid a bit more for a real "driver's car" that's european versus a more practical car that had all the toys, which trust me guys, i really wanted especially the nav and the xm (now i have to get an aftermarket unit with fm modulator). in the end i made the call and chose the s60r. i really do love the new tl - in fact when i was negotiating with the sales manager and was reciting all the facts he admitted that the tl was a great car and that a lot of people were comparing the two cars like i was and that acura definitely wins on the electronics side hands down).

but i have to say what really prevented acura from selling me a car was the sales process. as i mentioned before i have put down 3 deposits, waited over 2 months, been treated horribly throughout, and was left holding onto a shaky promise that my car would be here by mid March which i was not 100% confident about. if all this was done differently or better i would be in a tl by now. oh well - things happen for a reason... and now i have all wheel drive back!

blufox

well i did think the volvos are nice but couldn't dish out the extra 5 grand for it. But good luck with the car

caball88

congrats on the new volvo. its a really nice car but like most people on this board its out of my price range. styling wise i like the TL more the volvo looks alot more sedan like while the TL is more on the sporty side.

rets

S60R was in my list, too. Price is ok, but except its power, AWD, & safety, it's not the car for me, and it didn't have newer Volvo tech yet. IMHO, I don't think Volvo has better exterior. Their style is not the popular taste, it's very distinctive, but not for me, especially its tail.

Enjoy.

casooner90

I would have never thought about a volvo (had a 240 when I was living in england and absolutely hated that thing - I called it the darth vader). If you're in the price range, you should have waited for the 2005 Audi A6 (http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=7837).

Anyway, good luck and hope you're happy with your purchase.

joecarter29

I was thinking about a turbo charged Volvo as well but I wanted to ask you how the maintenance schedule is like. I hear turbo engines are very expensive to maintain and you need to bring them in often (like every 3 or4 months ofr oil changes and other tune ups and whatnot). My family owns the 02 TL right now and I find it annoying to have to bring the car in every 3-4 months for regular scheduled maintenance. One of the inticing things for me in a Volvo was that their regular scheduled maintenance was usually every 6 months or so (my aunt has an S70 so she takes it in every 6 months).

VTEC=happiness

Is it just me, or is 84 months a crazy commitment. If you needed to finance a car for 7 years, why not buy a car you could readily afford????

lflorack

It's not just you. Financing a car that long with the associated (relatively) low down payment, puts you on the wrong side of equity pretty quickly -- and for a long time. This means that if you total the car or even just want to trade it in earlier than you finish paying for it (a distinct possibility in my book), you'll have some extra debt to worry about covering.

If you make it to the end of the loan and none of that happens, great! I just don't feel really comfortable with it.

Tripp11

Two cars before my new '04 TL were both turbos: Mitsu Eclipse GS-T and Saab 9-3 SE Vert. Both cars were serviced at my respective dealerships and a personal mechanic that I use as well. My two cars required no "special" maintaining or service. Just oil changes every 3-5K miles and rotate and balance the tires. That's it.

usc

i just know that the first thing to go on a volvo is the electronic door lock. it'll come and go in spurts but usually, it fails at the most inopportune time.

my family's volvo 740 turbo diesel wagon left such a bad impression that i will never buy a volvo.

neuronbob

Congrats on your S60R, I think it's a hot car. I disgree with the poster who said that most posters here can't afford it--I an, but am a Honda fanatic so never really consifered buying it.

vandy786

If you can afford a $35k car, more than likely, you can also afford a $40k car. I like the Volvo a lot but I don't think it looks as well as some of the other cars around the price range. Also, I'd rather go with normally aspirated than turbo engines but the AWD and huge brembos are definitely nice.

mspence3

Congrats!! I love the S60. The style and the driving experience.

I would never finance for 7 years though.

rfs830

have fun with the new car.

I would not mind financeing for 7 years as most people will not pay for it that long. I know on my car i got a 5 year to get the payment down and so I could pay more payments a month.

Make me want to take a look at that car now.

theslik1

Agreed. I have a '98 Eclipse Spyder that's modded and runs higher than stock boost levels and there is no special maintenance required. The only thing I do extra is cool down the turbo for a few minutes after a hard run to avoid oil coking on the bearings. This can be done automatically with a turbo timer, and I highly recommend it, even for a car with no mods. Turbochargers get extemely hot.

Even with tender loving care, most turbos will not last the life of an engine. They simply work too hard and the wear gets to them eventually. You can expect a reasonable service life with a little common sense care.

On another note, I've heard that Volvo is having quite a tough time lately with quality control and customer service issues (along with Mercedes). I'd be curious to know how the long term reliability of your car pans out.

kng

thanks everyone for the kind notes. that was what attracted me to this board - everyone has their own opinions but people here are fairly objective which i appreciate and is why i posted today.

for the record, although i did finance it for 7 years, the intent was keep the payments as low as possible until i paid the car off in 2-3 years. i personally would rather pay the marginally higher interest but have more money to spend month to month on investments, etc. i put down $20k including my trade in - if money were an issue why would i put so much down? again, this is not the financing option for most people, but for me it works.

i would agree that reliability is in the back of my mind - not based on anything i heard and know but because there is a lot going on in that car. which is why i got the extended warranty for 7 years/100k with only a $100 deductible. i am not saying i may not be spending time in the shop, but it shouldn't cost too much. also, my s4 had twin turbos as well and i never had any turbo troubles nor "extra" service issues (knock on wood).

i look forward to still reading this board though i will not be a tl owner...

joecarter29

KNG, do you have to take your Volvo in every 3 to 4 months to get oil change and normal service according to the schedule?

Chilli

I'll be short and to the point. Volvos suck!

mspence3

a

Swat Dude

Chilli,

Nice comment after kng just got through saying how objective on this site is. Thanks for proving him wrong.

Chilli

I'm an infrequent visitor so the site is still very objective. I just had to chime in after two very bad Volvo experiences (1999 C70 bought back by Volvo and replacement 2000 C70). Two friends have also had bad experiences, but several others I know have had good ones. Just thinking of the word Volvo gives me a gnawing feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Swat Dude

Okay Chilli, you are now justified IMO.

BoneDaddy

I think the Volvo is pretty sweet, it just gets a little pricey. Like the styling, interior and performance numbers. But, if I was paying 40K + there are other vehicles to consider in that price range.
I am also excited about the S40, BTW.

Swat Dude

I just went to Volvo's website but could not find the "r" designation. What does the "r" get you???

MarkItZero

That car is so dorky looking. It sits way too high, huge gaps around the 18" wheels and the body. Plus, it is a volvo. lame.

Hate to say it, but you made a bad call.

mspence3

Swat Dude, try this.

http://new.volvocars.com/r/

BarryH

Remember that when an R shows you it's tail lights. Or passes you in snow or ice.

junk_99_dl

I sometimes wonder if I should have gotten the S60R. It came down to the value of the TL for me.

Things I like about the S60R:
I liked that the regularly scheduled maintenance was included for the first 3 yrs/36,000 miles.

I think it is a sharp looking car that you aren't going to see on the road everyday. In fact, I've yet to see one on the road.

The power and all wheel drive.

Why I bought the TL:
I guess I can change my own oil.

Who can tell the difference in a S60R, S60, S80, etc.

270 HP, do I really need that much power.

TL just seemed like such a better value.

As far as financing for 7 years, does it really make that much of a difference? Not many cars are good investments.

Skeedatl

Anyone stupid enough to drive fast in snow or ice should have their head examined. As for the R...yippie he bought an ugly car. He should have saved himself the extra 3 years of payments and gotten a superior 4WD WRX STi. For $42 there are simply more superior cars than the ugly S60R like the STi and $8K in the wallet.

vtechbrain

Hope you enjoy it. But sincerily I doubt it. Volvos have miserable reliability, depreciation and quality. To make matters worse their legendary safety is now a days second best to honda and other auto makers Just check the IIHS website for the company with most highly ranked vehicles. I doubt youll ever show your tail lights to a TL since the extra HP is sucked up by the Haldex system. All in all a poor choice regardless of price.

Stewie

Not to not be objective, but...

Its hard to take seriously the [negative] opinion of someone who:

1) Actually bought a Cayenne (from what I understand they aren't selling well at all so there's certainly no wait on those!)
2) Financed a car over 84 months.

That notwithstanding, several of my neigbors own Volvos and their reliability would appear to be, um, mediocre at best. Hence I ruled those out pretty quickly.

The Acura isn't perfect but it would appear to be a better bargain than many of its competitors.

rets

Sorry, out of curiosity, I thought Cayenne would be the best performance SUV I could find... Why not sell well? Compare to RX330/MDX? Is this vehicle special for top-pyramid ppl?

vtechbrain

Simple why the cayene is not selling you can buy 2 MDX for the price of a Cayene! BTW would you buy a sports car from Hummer?

Skeedatl

The Porsche isn't hardly at the top of the SUV pyramid. It's a second rate ugly-ass POS.

caball88

wow people are harsh here. i agree with some that the styling of the volvo is not that great and is not my type of car but this guy obviously likes the volvo and that's all that matters right?

bigman

i would have kept the s4 and purchased a wrx/sti or new turbo legacy. The legacy has the bells and whistles and cost less than the TL. Plus its safe, has all wheel drive and you would have been able t keep the other car.

VQ35DE

Puhleeaase!!! I personally think the S60 (in general) is overpriced and will depreciate terribly BUT, the S60R is alot more car than the STi.

Now if you're comparing the S60R with the Legacy Turbo (B4) coming out this year, then that makes for a logical comparison.

Stewie

This was from USA Today a month or so ago...

Porsche Cayenne

Sure, it has boosted Porsche's perennially small sales, but it isn't setting the SUV market on fire as predicted by the automaker's German managers. Dealers are bringing down the price by thousands. And even though the automaker said before the launch that a real Porsche has to have a Porsche engine, it will serve up a cheaper V-6 Cayenne with the Volkswagen engine from VW's Touareg SUV. VW and Porsche jointly developed the basics of the two SUVs but diverged on engines, bodies, interiors and other major features. Touareg has been the hit that Porsche hoped Cayenne would be. Now Porsche thinks a cheaper Cayenne will help meet sales targets.

VQ35DE

OK Sidenote: IMO the Toureag is the SWEETEST looking SUV to ever hit the market; and I DONT like VWs, in general. $.02

kng

i guess i gave this forum too much credit... i did not post to turn this into a pissing contest, but if i'm gonna get flamed for being objective, i feel the need to defend myself from the less intelligent posters here. where should i begin:

1) everyone keeps talking about reliability, which i admitted was a general concern of mine. but someone emailed me the following which paints both cars evry similarly:

Edmunds.com keeps detailed 5-year projections for ownership cost for all models and breaks it down by depreciation, financing, insurance, fuel, maintenance, taxes, etc. They show the R with a 5 year depreciation rate 2% higher than the TL (I don't know where they got this number but the ALG book has good residual numbers for the R.) Edmunds shows the combined 5-year cost of ownership for other categories as $25,737 for the TL and $26,820 for the R. In other words, about $200/year difference which isn't bad considering they show the R as ~10% more expensive to buy.

2) everyone keeps bringing up my 7 year financing - did no one read my followup post explaining why??? bottom line - i will PAY OFF the car in 2-3 years. the smarter people here would recognize that having more money in hand month to month is better than having higher payments IF you use that money wisely in the interim, like invest it which i am doing.

3) everyone keeps bringing up quality of build which i do not see as a problem. my car looks and seems beautiful from what i see right now. i do not know for sure but i suspect the volvo r models might be hand or specially finished since they only make 5000 a year. i do not know about regular s60s. i am happy my car was built in belgium not ohio. based on this forum, the tl has issues of its own relative to rattles, squeaks, etc.

4) everyone keeps ragging on my cayenne as a poor car. have any of you ridden or driven one? anyone who has would disagree with you. it handles phenomenally, has great power, and is imminently capable off road. all the reviews say it's a great car but question its value. to say it's a bad car is totally incorrect - it's fantastic - to say there are better values out there sure. but then why don't you all buy accords versus tl's then??? if you can afford one, you would like it.

5) lastly, i think stevie mentioned that my s60r couldn't blow the doors off a tl - buddy, what are you smoking? you'll see my tail lights by the time you can figure out how to launch your car assuming you have a 6MT (ok mabe some exaggeration here...)

again, i respect and like the tl and i could easily be driving one now if not the mishaps. i think most people who have read my post respect my decision and car. but i had to reply to the rest of you.....