TLover

I did a search and didn't find anything. I've been reading on the G35 and Z forums about grounding kits. Now before anyone goes off on them as hocus-pocus, skeptical people have tried them and dynoed them, showing that they do in fact produce HP and torque gains. Now my knowledge of electrical engineering is limited so I can't say why they'd work but it seems they do. Anyone have thoughts on this?

żGotJazz?

What is it and what does it do?

TLover

http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/hyperground/

bustedbyu

wonder if any tl owners added any grounding kits?

żGotJazz?

TLover,

I think they're yankin' your shillelagh. Your car's wiring system is already loaded with copper, with enough purity to get the job done. If your car's cabling had too much resistance, it would melt due to the amount of current being drawn.

There's classic signs of a scam here:

(1) Why do they have the copper / steel / aluminum resistance chart at the top? Do you know of any cars that have steel or aluminum wiring? I'll give you a hint: There ain't any. So why does the manufacturer post this graph? Because they don't have enough facts about the workings of their own "miraculous" product to fill a thimble, so they have to throw "empty facts" onto the page to make it seem more impressive.

(2) Can you read the voltage scaling on those oscilloscope traces in the middle of the page? (By the way, they misspelled "oscillograph" ... nice touch) The voltage scaling on an oscilloscope shows how many volts are displayed per vertical division (the dim horizontal lines in the picture). If you are set to a 5 V/div voltage scale, it would look twice as high as a 10 V/div scale. For example, a 12 VDC battery display would be 2.4 divisions high for 5 V/div scaling and 1.2 divisions high for 10 V/div scaling.

I sure can't read the voltage scales, because the the pictures were made intentionally fuzzy. Based on what I'm seeing, it looks like the Hyper Ground Voltage scale is at least 2x greater, which would make that display 1/2 as high.

And, they're not even telling you what they are measuring in that display. What kind of scientific proof is that?

More empty facts.

(3) With 99.99% pure copper, you have other problems. Copper that is this pure can have problems with microfracturing over time, which will actually increase the cable's resistance - possibly eventually higher than your stock cable. Pure copper is a great conductor, but it is not as flexible as standard copper cabling that has a very tiny amount of impurities added to make it more flexible and handle tough environments (like the engine area of your car).

(4) OK, so the Hyper Ground cable is 99.99% pure copper. What percent of copper purity is there in the stock cable that they are comparing against? 99.9%? 99%? Who knows? Where's the real data in this scientific proof?

(5) The only factoids being displayed are the supposed improvements in torque, horsepower, and gas mileage. If these were true, don't you think that all car manufacturers would replace their current cabling with higher purity copper? Replacing the standard ground cable with supposedly higher purity would sure be a heck of a lot cheaper to put into a car design than exhaustive engine redesigns, adjusting compression ratios / port timings / long-term engine wear, etc. Honda/Acura has spent millions of dollars to try and squeeze extra horseys out of their car's design. Something as simple as this would have been done years ago, and may already in place.

(6) Do your research! The only site I found that really tested these out independantly is here. This is good, but I hope that Car Audio & Electronics doesn't get any advertising revenue from Sun Automotive (the manufacturer of Hyper Grounding).

These are just my thoughts, and isn't any real proof that the Hyper Ground System doesn't work. I'm just suspicious.

If you want to try the Hyper Ground system out, be sure to get multiple dyno tests before and after the mods, and let us know your results!

Your friendly neighborhood Electrical Engineer,

żGotJazz?

havenlock

Wow, nice response

danno

As usual, your posts are greatly appreciated!

TLover

Thanks, GotJazz. I am suspicious of these things since I do have a rudimentary knowledge of electrical engineering (I mostly studied thermodynamics and aerodynamics). But I know people who have dynoed their car and have gotten measurable gains. I say if Hyper Ground is so confident in its claims, then I'm going to inquire about a money-back guarantee.

rynpamn21

i was just going to say the exact same thing... :toothless ...just kidding...good thing somebody brought this up...was thinking of getting some grounding kits for my TL if they had any...even better that we have someone like GOTJAZZ who is an electrical engineer

1SICKLEX

I defintely recommend them. They make your car idle smoother and in some cases, add a hp or 2 (nothing major). We have quite a few people in my club with this upgrade. A good benefit for the price and easy to do yourself.

bustedbyu

great response.

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

Don't forget to get the premium blinker fluid too.

jjsC5

I have dyno'd my Corvettes several times (and attended many "dyno days"). In back to back runs, 30 seconds apart, my cars dyno 2rwhp different every time. What kind of difference do you think can be had dynoing two hours (or days) apart? And there is a lot that can be done to manipulate dyno readings if the operator has a mind to.

I don't believe for a minute that grounding kits work. What do they do that would give the car more horsepower? Yes, I've read many of the posts on the G35 forums. I have yet to see any concrete evidence. And don't you think that if five bucks worth of copper would result in more HP and smoother shifts etc that the manufacturers would go ahead and do it at the factory?

Don't get me started! (OK, you already did).

TLover

I'm not saying they do or don't work. I'm just trying to find out. I mean sometimes dynoes only show marginal increases for intakes. (Of course, it's obvious why they work.) It just seems to me that grounding kits have become more and more popular. I'm just curious.

digital_b

if you hear that they dont work why do you persist? once you find out one way or another what is the point of continuing?

TLover

Who said I hear that they don't work? I said I hear that they DO work. I think what may be a possible explanation is grounding kits ensure you get max power, possibly taking out any margin of error in the manufacturing process. Explaining why some experience gains and some don't.

jjsC5

I don't personally believe anyone experiences gains. 99% of the posts I have read extolling the virtues say "it feels smoother". I have not actually read any posts that say they dyno'd higher. I'm sure there are such posts, but I have not seen them, and assume there are damn few of them. In fact, I've read posts that admit there was no dyno difference.

I'm a big believer in the placebo effect. There is simply no engineering explanation for this that makes any sense. As I stated above - if there is an engineering explanation, why wouldn't the manufacturers put them on at the factory? At manufacturers cost, the cost would be almost nothing (I have been in the electrical supply business for 30 years, 13 working for major manufacturers of electrical wire and cable).

TLover

Believe me, I'm a total skeptic. But I'll try them if, and only if, there's a 100% money-back guarantee so I can see for myself.

rets

Got too much time??

This kit isn't new to me, but I never used it before. Based on your opinion, it's not even worth for me, only me, to have a trial on it.

Thanks.

TLover

Well, I only work four days a week, so, yeah, I've got too much time.

jjsC5

You are right - you're not out much if they don't do anything. If you do put them on, please let us know what you think.

rets

I was originally talking to GotJazz... he spent time to write it up. They're new to me...

Thanks for bringing up this topic.

mobilezen

Make your own kit. It costs less than 10 bucks to get the stuff and make it.

Road Rage

That Car Audio "test" has been ripped so bad at S2KI.com that no one mentions it any more - they get beaucoup $'s from a number of advertisers, and besides the blatant observer effect, everyone knows that dynos can be made to show that kind of gain. I would like to have seen the tests run double-blind, with the engines allowed to cool down day to day, and with identical IAT's - otherwise, I put zero stock in that test. It reminds me of the crap Bruce Brisson at MIT cables does for audio, where he shows a dramatic rolloff of high frequencies from "cheap zip cord", only the oscilloscope time and freq scales are never given - we are probably looking at a 4megaHertz wave - yeah, zip cord looks bad, but my CD player only goes to the Shannon-Nyquist rolloff of 22.05 kHz - this ain't radio, boys.

As a fellow EE and Mech Eng, I could not agree more with GotJazz. I also review high end audio, and am sick of the cable charlatans who have ruined this hobby - "Six nines" pure copper is a huge hype, but it is easy sell to the non-scientific lawyers and arbitrageurs who have to have an $15K 8-foot pair of speaker cables. (I am not kidding). To anyone with even a passing understanding of Maxwell's equations, the notion of degradation of any signal (AC or DC) by the "dirt" in "unpure" copper is ridiculous: the result is a tiny increase in R, and the effect is a tiny dissipation of heat. Any first-year EE student gets that in electromagnetics. Besides, the signal is carried in the dielectric space of the insulator, not by the copper itself per se, as determined by Poynting Vector. The wire "guides" ther signal, but cannot degrade it. With my Audio Precision 2, I can determine the R,L, and C of a cable merely by looking at its low-pass filtration.

To add a little: Copper is a near perfect conductor, certainly for DC - silver has a tiny bit of an edge, esdpecially in AC applications, and in situations where oxidation rears it ugly head, silver oxides are actually excellent conductors, in contrast to "green" copper. Nitwits in the audio field find copper cable coated with silver, and infer that is their to help witk "skin effect" - of course, skin effect is absolutrely meaningless at audio frequencies, or at 0 Hz, where DC dwells - the silver is their to keep the cable from degrading from oxidation effects mentioned previously.

So why not have the grounding kit charlatans sell SILVER grounding cables, hmmmmm?

Now, there is a benefit to star grounding - tying as many grounds to a low R conduit. Although I have not examined the TL, my S2000's fuse block has star grounds. These will benefit the low voltage signals of sensors, since they typically operate at 5VDC or less. Should the grounds be at different potentials, there can be ground loops or inductive charges that can disrupt the flow of info to the ECM. But body grounds deal with 12-14 VDC at many amperes (esp the starter circuit). If you were find the starter, you will no doubt see a very big hunk of braided copper leading to a secure chasiss ground.


As my physics prof at Dartmouth used to say when someone asked an honest, but absurd question, quickly dispatched,

"Next!".

mobilezen

I'm skeptic too...my kit was free so if it doesn't work on my future TL, no biggy, I'll just take it off and sell it to some ricer who wants that extra 30hp.