harddrivin1le

You said that "unaltered" 1969 396 Chevelles produced "335 GRWHP."

Please explain the concept of "Gross Rear Wheel HP."

REAR WHEEL HP then was THE SAME as it is now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wow:

The car companies then KNEW what the engines put out in the car (SAE NET) and what they put out ina dyno test cell as described below (SAE GROSS). OF COURSE THEY HAD "ACCESS TO BOTH!"

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~tcroy/horsepower.htm

Skeedatl

Geez, STFU. You were doing pretty good there for a few days 1LE. You hadn't said anything too stupid. Now here you are today making up for your weekend off I guess.

harddrivin1le

"STUPID" is claiming that "unaltered" 1969 Chevelles produced "335 GRWHP" (Gross Rear Wheel HP).

Norse396

Crap, ok, one last one. YES they had access, my poor wording, they didn't post NET, they posted GROSS. I was wrong in my wording, I shall do 1000 hail Mary's and all that, you may now continue your endless meandering tireds....:wow:

Edit to fix this statement:
Should read WASN'T going to respond....

This is your brain on 3 hours sleep in 4 days......

1le, lets drop it now, it has gone beyond too far and will get no further than it was, uh not even sure when this crap started so lets just drop it.

harddrivin1le

Regardless of what they "posted," 1969 396 Chevelles DID NOT PRODUCE "335" RHWP."

And what the hell is "gross rear wheel HP?"

Rear wheel HP for a new car in 1969 was THE SAME as it is today - what the car produces AT THE REAR WHEELS, as measured on a chassis dyno.

Skeedatl

No stupid in beating a herd of dead horses across 5 threads. Give it a rest before you get CTS.

harddrivin1le

Not just a herd of dead horses - 335 of them - of the "gross rear wheel" variety, to be exact.

gstais

So you finally admit you really are STUPID!!

harddrivin1le

I put that term in quotes because it is SOMEONE ELSE'S term.

Swat Dude

Who cares?

Swat Dude

No frickin' idea. Of course, I never claimed to be the expert. In fact, unlike you, I'm willing to admit when I don't know something.

But I do know this elementary fluids problem, do you???:

Please explain to me in layman's terms, using the combined gas law, how 55 degree air is made by blowing a 115 degree air across an air-cooled condenser. (That would be any air-cooled a/c unit in Arizona.)

Skeedatl

Like 1LE knew before someone wrote it up for him to cut n paste.

harddrivin1le

"p" (pressure) looks a lot like rho (density)....

I'd glanced @ this ~ 1 month prior to typing it on here...Pretty honest mistake for someone who last took a fluids course in 1986.



Still, my ORIGINAL claim that pressure in a tube/pipe will typically rise as velocity falls holds true.

harddrivin1le

http://home.howstuffworks.com/ac2.htm

BUT

The combined gas law by itself does NOT fully explain the phenomenon that occurs in the refrigeration cycle.

http://home.att.net/~lfretzin/notes12.htm

As the PRESSURE on a gas increases, and as the TEMPERATURE of a gas decreases intermolecular forces and the size of the gas molecules causes the gas to stop behaving as the Ideal Gas Law would predict.

The Joule-Thompson Effect

When a highly compressed gas is allowed to escape through a small opening, it absorbs a great deal of energy from its surroundings, causing the surrounding temperature to drop. This is the basis of refrigeration.

FYI: That's why a VERY GOOD carb. can make MORE PEAK POWER than an EFI unit.

:wow:

harddrivin1le

http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=...yc=27219&icp=1

Swat Dude

Notice I asked for you to explain it, not post some link, and yes, the combined gas law, along with a very limited knowledge of heat transfer, is all you need to explain the refrigeration cycle. Care to try it on your own without a link??????

harddrivin1le

Who the hell are YOU to "test me" on anything?

Anyone with a brain and 10 minutes of net searching could pass your "test" by parroting anything they read.

Swat Dude

Put up or shut the f$%& up!!!

harddrivin1le

The basic foundation of your question is IDIOTIC because the "gas" is actually in a LIQUID PHASE for ~ half the cycle!!!!! :grenade:

And THE JOULE THOMSPON EFFECT is the basis for the refrigeration cycle!

http://home.att.net/~lfretzin/notes12.htm

"The Joule-Thompson Effect

When a highly compressed gas is allowed to escape through a small opening, it absorbs a great deal of energy from its surroundings, causing the surrounding temperature to drop. This is the basis of refrigeration."

You're not even schooled enough to ask the right question, let alone understand the correct answer!
:clown: :bigun2:

Swat Dude

Still with the links. You don't know Sh$% my friend and I just proved it. One last chance before I school you on the combined gas law. And by the way, the above statement about a highly compressed gas is total BS. The fact that it is escaping through a small opening has nothing to do with its ability to remove heat from its surroundings. Again you quote stuff with no real understanding. WRONG AGAIN AS USUAL.

harddrivin1le

The combined gas law isn't the primary force @ work in the refrigeration cycle.

MOST of the ability of the refrigerant to pick up/remove heat (in the evaporator) is attributable to the Jules Thomspon effect.

harddrivin1le

The combined gas law isn't the primary force @ work in the refrigeration cycle.

MOST of the ability of the refrigerant to pick up/remove heat (in the evaporator) is attributable to the Jules Thompson effect.

"As the PRESSURE on a gas increases, and as the TEMPERATURE of a gas decreases intermolecular forces and the size of the gas molecules causes the gas to stop behaving as the Ideal Gas Law would predict.

The Joule-Thompson Effect

When a highly compressed gas is allowed to escape through a small opening, it absorbs a great deal of energy from its surroundings, causing the surrounding temperature to drop. This is the basis of refrigeration."

harddrivin1le

http://www.atp.nist.gov/eao/ccar/append-a.htm

TLover

Another derailed thread. :smackhead

harddrivin1le

http://www.cneti.com/~chs/chp6.htm

harddrivin1le

http://www.rifledair.com/old/about2.htm

Next, the high pressure condensed refrigerant (which has rejected its heat to the environment) flows through the Expansion Valve and then into the Evaporator which, again, operates at low pressure. The significant drop in pressure experienced by the liquid refrigerant as it flows through the Expansion Valve causes it to "flash" into a low pressure mixture of cold gas and liquid. It is during this process, known as the Joule-Thompson effect, that the refrigerant actually becomes cold. :thefinger

harddrivin1le

I'm waiting...school me...

PV=nRT

Tell me about how simply altering pressures and volumes in a closed system (with a fixed number of moles and a single gas constant) is going to explain what happens in the typical refrigeration cycle - without anything else (like Joules-Thompson) happening).

Swat Dude

You are pathetic! You are a quoting machine. I asked you to explain it without using links or quote's and you just can't do it. Again, you prove that you cannot think. If someone stole your computer, you would not be able to have a conversation.

If you read my original question, you could have answered it fairly easily without using any links. The answer is this: a mechanical device, i.e., the compressor, is used to raise the pressure of the gas thereby raising its temperature. So by applying pressure to 50 degree refrigerant, I can raise the temperature to say 140 degrees for an air-cooled condenser. I can do this by reducing the refrigerant's volume while adding very little heat. Most average adults people have a correct "gut feeling" about heat transfer and that is, that heat moves from hot to cold (most people would agree that a hot fire will transfer its heat to the colder surrounding areas, basically a thermodynamic law but you don't need to know that to understand it). Once I have used pressure to raise the temperature, I can now cool that 140 degree refrigerant using 115 degree outside air (a summer day in Phoenix) to say 122 degrees, thereby removing heat from the refrigerant. When I realease the pressure on the refrigerant, using an expansion valve, keeping in mind I have removed heat from it, guess what, that 50 degree refrigerant is now 40 degrees! Where did the heat go??? We removed some of it while the gas was under pressure. Now I can use my 76 degree house air to raise the temp. on this refrigerant from 40 to 50 degrees and in doing so, I have to give up the heat from the 76 degree air, thereby reducing its temp. to 55 degrees. And that is how heat is removed from my house and I get 55 degree air inside when its 115 outside.

So you see, once again you are quoting the Joule-Thompson effect, having no real understanding of what it means. That fact that I used an TXV, thermal expansion valve, has nothing to do with the heat transfer that occurs when I pass 76 degree air over 40 degree refrigerant, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! It doesn't "cool" the gas! It just allows the volume of the gas to increase, thereby reducing the pressure and lowering the temp. All the valve does is give me the ability to produce high pressure on one side of it (upstream) where I can raise the temp. enough for heat transfer to occur at a higher temp, and lower pressure on the other side of the valve (downstream). If the valve was not in the loop, my compressor would never develop high pressure in the loop to raise the temp for heat transfer to occur. Now we could talk about thermodynamics and the latent heat of evaporation, superheat, etc., that all contribute to this effect, but in order to explain the answer to the original question, we really don't need to.

Wow, I did that without a single link or quote and hopefully it was easy enough for most people to understand.

Finally, moron, we really don't even need to change our refrigerant from a gas to a liquid for the cycle to work, although the reason this is done is because a large amount of heat is required for a change in state(liquid to gas-latent heat of evaporation) and this makes our loop able to remove heat much more efficiently.

gannet

I started this days ago by just stating I like the styling of the TL I had on order over the new Chrysler 300, now it is some debate on chemicals. Wow! :banghead:

Swat Dude

Typical of anything Harddrivin touches. I wouldn't even respond but its just too much darn fun to watch him make a total ass out of himself, although trying to get him to understand anything is alot like beating your head against the wall.

harddrivin1le

That's not true.

The amount of temp reduction that occurs can't be explained solely by the combined/perfect gas law.

harddrivin1le

Open this, scroll down to the bottom and do a little reading:

http://home.att.net/~lfretzin/notes12.htm

"The Joule-Thompson Effect

When a highly compressed gas is allowed to escape through a small opening, it absorbs a great deal of energy from its surroundings, causing the surrounding temperature to drop. This is the basis of refrigeration."

svtmike

Here's an even better link.

http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT

Mike

harddrivin1le

MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

No-one forces you to read my posts.

If you don't LIKE what I have to say then place me on your IGNORE LIST. That's what it's for.

TLover

I don't mind your posts. What I mind is you hijacking nearly every post you touch and going WAY off topic. If you want to discuss scientific theories, start another thread. This was a discussion about the TL over the Chrysler 300.

harddrivin1le

Translation: You are WRONG and prefer to remain that way by ignoring the existence of the Joule-Thompson effect. :lol2:

http://home.att.net/~lfretzin/notes12.htm

"The Joule-Thompson Effect

When a highly compressed gas is allowed to escape through a small opening, it absorbs a great deal of energy from its surroundings, causing the surrounding temperature to drop. This is the basis of refrigeration."

harddrivin1le

http://www.hodsonhome.com/mna2001/ch.../adiabatic.htm

"Adiabatic expansion of a gas can be described by imagining a cylinder of gas (see figure) that is closed off from the environment and is insulated so that it can NOT be heated or cooled by any external sources (e.g. fire, ice, water, electricity). On the left side of the cylinder there is a gas under pressure (P1); the pressure is created by pushing on a piston. On the right side there is an area of very low pressure or a vacuum. The two sides of the cylinder are separated by a partition that has a small hole (throttle) in it. As the gas passes through the throttle from the high-pressure side (left side) to the low-pressure side (right side) it expands very rapidly. This is adiabatic expansion...

Everything has an internal energy, even gases. When pressure is applied to a gas its internal energy increases because we are performing work on the gas. As the gas expands its internal energy decreases because the gas is performing work by expanding.

(1) D internal energy (D U) = heat added or removed (dq) + work done to or by the gas.

Since there is no heat added or removed, the first term (dq) = 0. So (1) becomes

(2) D internal energy (D U) = work done by the gas (dw)(ii)

When gas performs work dw is negative so the internal gas decreases. Intuitively since we know that temperature is an indirect measurement of energy, we can guess that the temperature of the gas will decrease as it expands. This decrease in temperature is the Joules -- Thompson effect.

fast-tl

I've been looking for pages and pages to get more input on the Chrysler 300. ADMINS PLEASE LOCK THIS USELESS THREAD!!

Swat Dude

This is not a correct statement and not a correct description of the Joules-Thompson effect!!!!! Again, you quote and quote and quote and have no understanding. Do you have any thoughts of your own???? Can you think for yourself??? If you could you would realize the above statement is incorrect and just because it is on the internet doesn't make it true!!!!

harddrivin1le

YOU NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THE JOULES-THOMPSON EFFECT UNTIL I MENTIONED IT TO YOU! NOW YOU'RE AN EXPERT ON IT?

http://www.hodsonhome.com/mna2001/c...s/adiabatic.htm

"Adiabatic expansion of a gas can be described by imagining a cylinder of gas (see figure) that is closed off from the environment and is insulated so that it can NOT be heated or cooled by any external sources (e.g. fire, ice, water, electricity). On the left side of the cylinder there is a gas under pressure (P1); the pressure is created by pushing on a piston. On the right side there is an area of very low pressure or a vacuum. The two sides of the cylinder are separated by a partition that has a small hole (throttle) in it. As the gas passes through the throttle from the high-pressure side (left side) to the low-pressure side (right side) it expands very rapidly. This is adiabatic expansion...

Everything has an internal energy, even gases. When pressure is applied to a gas its internal energy increases because we are performing work on the gas. As the gas expands its internal energy decreases because the gas is performing work by expanding.

(1) D internal energy (D U) = heat added or removed (dq) + work done to or by the gas.

Since there is no heat added or removed, the first term (dq) = 0. So (1) becomes

(2) D internal energy (D U) = work done by the gas (dw)(ii)

When gas performs work dw is negative so the internal energy of the gas decreases. Intuitively since we know that temperature is an indirect measurement of energy, we can guess that the temperature of the gas will decrease as it expands. This decrease in temperature is the Joules -- Thompson effect.

AND:

http://www.rifledair.com/old/about2.htm

Next, the high pressure condensed refrigerant (which has rejected its heat to the environment) flows through the Expansion Valve and then into the Evaporator which, again, operates at low pressure. The significant drop in pressure experienced by the liquid refrigerant as it flows through the Expansion Valve causes it to "flash" into a low pressure mixture of cold gas and liquid. It is during this process, known as the Joule-Thompson effect, that the refrigerant actually becomes cold.