Dang, 1le. Norse tries to be nice and agree with your point, and you still get defensive. You guys need to go somewhere and have a few beers together. You might even like each other.

 

Where did he "agree?"

It's common knowledge that American cars still SIGNIFICANTLY LAG their Asian counterparts in terms of quality and durability.

Maybe he should trade his TL in for a new Ford 500 when that comes out (soon). I can't WAIT to see the # of recalls and problems that are associated with that car.

 

Good God man, whatever. You love to argue, do you get paid for it? I don't care why you bought that car, I doubt any single person on this or almost any other forum cares why you bought that car.

I don't buy Asian cars because of studies alone, I don't buy American cars because of studies alone. Most people use experince and friends opinions and research. Some people buy for the reasons you bought yours.

The difference is you can't understand why people don't agree with you on evverything you say because you think saying it and sticking a link in the post must make you 100% correct. It boggles your brain that people still won't agree with you when you post what you consider utter fact that can't be disputed.

Some people disagree with you just because.

In the end, we agree to disagree, so what.

 

You of course assume the worst, you're a glass is half empty type of person. I choose to look at it as half full. This goes with all car companies. Well, except for KIA and Daewoo and a few others like GM.

If I do go with Ford it will be the new Mustang Cobra coming out in 2006.

 

gstais,

Your story pretty much parallels mine and my involvement with Chrysler products over the last 10 years.

Your experience with the product also parallels mine. I had only minor issues with the vehicles I owned and they served me well. But those Chrysler products did all suffer from one common thing, they lacked the refinement of a Honda or Toyota. They were decent vehicles, but very rough around the edges.

I also traded a 2002 300M Special in on my TL but the depreciation hit on that 300M was horrific. The resale values for LH cars just plain tanked.

Where we part company is that I'm very unlikely to ever buy a domestic brand again, at least until such time as they regain control of the freefall they're in.
Financially speaking, it just isn't wise to buy domestic any longer. While all the rebates and incentives are superficially attractive up front, where the buyer pays the price is on the back side. In order to make a domestic car purchase work, you pretty much have to hold on to the vehicle for 7 - 8 years. Many people don't want to keep a vehicle that long and if they do, the residual value of the vehicle at that point is very low leaving little equity to apply towards a replacement.

If customers are forced to hold on to the vehicles that long it's going to be very unhealthy for domestic sales volumes long term.

Trading the 300M was a financially poor move, but I realized that if I didn't break out of that rut now, I was doomed to be stuck in for a long time to come. That was not a position I wanted to be in.

 

kosh2258,

You nailed it, resale is the one area where buying American hurts you. If I do buy the new Mustang Cobra in '06 (which I may do and keep the TL) it will be long term.

My business partner traded his 300M for an E320, his 300 was a nice car but he got bent over at trade in as well.

 

I think of him as kind of a "skull is half empty" kind of person.

Mike

 

THEN GO BUY A FORD AND QUIT YOUR BI*CHING!!

Ford's QUALITY PROBLEMS are well documented; even the compant itself admits to them!

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/ford_quality.html

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_padilla_fords_revised/

 

http://www.autotechdaily.com/pdfs/T05-30-02.pdf

 

In H.S. I pimped around in an 84 Merc Grand Marquis, and other than the typical Ford "Getto Lean" it never died. Of course the same couldn't be said of my 2 Lincolns. Now those were real pieces of poop.

 

Isn't the 98 Camaro a product of Canada ?

 

Who can tell what is American and what isn't anymore?

Saturn Vue Redline...powered by Acura

Ford Futura...based on Mazda 6.

Ford 500...based on Volvo S60/S80

Even the 85 Chysler Laser...Powered by Mitsubishi

Chysler Crossfire...based on Mercedes Benz SLK320

I think the Lincoln LS is based on a shared platform (chassis) with the S-Type

And I'm sure there are tons more. Fact is, there are hardly any purely American and purely import cars anymore. Trucks maybe, but with companies owning so much of each other you hardly find 100% domestic content. Even those with a ton of domestic content are built somewhere else...Canada and maybe even Mexico.

American quality is improving, but I think there will be huge quality leaps when they do more of this crossplatform work. I think the Ford Futura for example will be a great car. The sketches look great and if it drives like a Mazda 6 it will certainly be a vast improvement over Ford's past with the Contour, Tempo and even Taurus.

 

I always find it funny when TL/CL owners complain about American cars when their cars are designed by Amercians for the American markets, built in America, built by Americans. And the cars have the same American quality problems.

 

Ted,

I fully concur with your assessment of American cars. This pretty much sums up my fellings on this issue.

As you experienced, one of the primary reasons I traded in my 300M after only two years and 37,000 miles was that I got killed on the depreciation. Resale value was had tanked. Again, like yourself, I felt that if I kept the car much longer, I would be committed for the long-term which was not acceptable in my view.

In the future, I would consider another American car, but only after careful consideration, and comparison to other European and Asian competitors. However, having grown up during the 60's and 70's when American cars were KING, poor design and quality notwithstanding, I feel I need to at least make a fair and objective comparison the next time I am in the market for a new car.

Thanks for your objective feedback.

 

Harddrivin1le,

You kidding, right? Do you realize how contorted and downright stupid your logic is here? Do you really expect everyone to believe that you bought your "beloved Z28" knowing full well that it was put together with "bubble gum and chicken wire", and that you were prepared to spend additional money to fix it so it can become your "alleged holy grail of performance cars?

Yeah, right! You are the most insolent, arrogant, and ill-informed person in this forum. You seem obsessed with convincing everyone that only you have all the right answers, and that no one can come close to your level of automotive expertise. Well, I have a News Flash for you - you are completely clueless, and no one really wants to listen to you anymore! Why don't you do us all a favor and proliferate your incessant dribble in a Chevy forum somewhere!

Wait - I think I hear your Mother calling you!

Have a Nice Day!,

A REAL TL OWNER.

 

So what you're doing isn't? I'm a member of a TL forum, I own a TL. I have every right to bitch all I want about it. Whats your excuse?

You could find complaints about any car company. Big deal, I'm not sure why you're on this kick to try and sway me from purchasing from Ford. I'm not asking you to buy one am I.

I don't have the inclination to post links to how crappy GM is because there is no need to. I could care less if you like GM. I like Ford, post every web page that states they suck, you'll find just as many that state GM and a host of others suck. There are hundreds of anti-microsoft web sites, that doesn't stop me from using their products.

I said it before, I'll say it again, we agree to disagree, we will probably never agree, I'm able to live with that, why can't you?

 

It was, now it's defunct because Ford outsold the "F" body so bad GM gave up. Now look what Ford is releasing in the '05 Stang, and it's about time, I'll agree with 1le on the fact that while the Camaro was built, in the 90's they dominated the Mustang in performance. Ford dominated in sales, now they are releasing exceptional Mustang's and the '05 is awesome, which is why I'm buying one in '06.


Edit: to all TL owners: While I do bitch about my TL alot here, I do love the car and hope that Acura sets the car straight. Acura service has been top rate and I couldn't imagine better service from another car company. I look forward to many years with the TL, once the issues are taken care of I'm sure it will give me the dependability I've gotten from Honda's in years past.

 

gstais,

Thanks. I always enjoy sharing views.

Sounds like you and I are of about the same age. I did my growing up during the late 60's and early 70's as well when deciding on a car was easier.

So far, I'm really enjoying my TL but this isn't the first time in the Honda camp for me. We owned Acuras back in the beginning, the wife drove an 87 Integra and I had an 88 Legend coupe - both cars served us well for a number of years.

My father had always been a Chrysler guy and when the LH hit the market in 93 I decided it was time to try them again. But still kept a positive attitude about Honda/Acura.

The only thing about the TL that I'm not thrilled with is the voice command system. It's just way too slow to respond to commands. In most cases I can glance over and make the needed changes to the climate control or stereo a lot faster with less distraction. It's a good idea for the phone, and probably for the nav (haven't had much opportunity to use that yet) but for the climate control and stereo it's mostly a waste of time, in my view.

Beyond that one thing, I find the TL a truly enjoyable ride.

 

Amen to that, it took me until yesterday to realize I didn't need to say "call" prior to making a call. I could just hit the button and say the number, this saved so much time waiting for it to respond to me saying "call".....

 

Fluid Mechanics.

 

Would you be referring to Asian-owned makes? Most Asian-owned car companies are now assembled by good ol' Americans while American-owned companies have moved much of their production to Mexico and other cheap labor countries. Go NAFTA!

 

NAFTA.........ugh:banghead:

 

Good lets discuss that.

There IS a situation in fluid mechanics whereby p1v1 = p2v2 and where v = velocity.

Name it.:wow:

 

You're dumb.

 

He made valid points that are obvious to everybody including you, hence your calling him "dumb" being the only response you could drum up. He posted FACT and you crumbled, why don't you scamper off to a Chevy forum, or have you been banned from those sites as well?

Oh, by the way, what's wrong with this? t = t' / (1-v^2/c^2)^(1/2)

 

Still EATING CROW over the L-78/ "335 GRWHP"/aluminum heads claims?

 

Non sequitur.

 

Non sequitur.

 

Is that all you've got?

Your are really pathetic.

 

Just as I thought, you have no idea, but then, I knew you wouldn't. I'll say one thing for you, you love to prove people right, maybe you just can't help it.

You started at the bottom...and it's been downhill ever since...

 

Just as I thought, you have no idea, but then, I knew you wouldn't. I'll say one thing for you, you love to prove people right, maybe you just can't help it.

You started at the bottom...and it's been downhill ever since...

 

I want you to explain the concept of "Gross Rear Wheel Horsepower" to me.

Then I want you to explain to me how an "UNALTERED" 1969, 396 Chevelle was able to produce "335 GRWHP."

The 1970 LS6 454 (unaltered) produced approx 335 RHWP. So did the 2001 LS6 (385 HP SAE NET 346 cid Z06 engine).

"Unaltered" 396s (including the L78) produced CONSIDERABLY LESS than either.

 

There are now untold pages of my attempts to explain this to you. My guess is the same now as it was after the last round of your insignificant tirades. If you don't understand now what I was trying to tell you how will me repeating it for probably the 50th time help any? Also, why do you care so much that you'll bring this up over and over again like the energizer bunny when it was clearly explained so many times?

Also, what does your tireades have to do with anything being talked about on this TL forum??

Nobody cares about how cars were rated 35 years ago with regards to their TL expect as maybe a passing fancy, which clearly would go on like you have in this endless debate over something so trivial. There is a search function in this forum, I suggest you use it, my response to this absurd question that you yourself have answered is out there. You're the one who is hell bent on rehashing this crap, go find it, if you can't, then how about getting over it finally.

 

YOU cared about it - until I showed you how WRONG you were.

 

I still care about cars from back then, that isn't the point. You missed my point so many times I refuse to rehash it anymore than I have. You are like a spoiled child who has to make sure everybody knows he's right, so in the end the only thing you do is piss everybody off so the only person who thinks you're right is you, even if you are right.

This is my last response to this subject, you know where the posts are, find them, re-read them, if after that you still feel right, great, bully for you, if not forget it, drop it because I'm not going to respond to anything on that subject if your or any screen name that turns out to be you writes....

Now in the future you want to debate something with an open mind, great, until then, goodbye.

 

What the hell does this have to do with the topic of this thread, or any topic in this forum? The original subject of here was "Glad I am Getting an '04 TL over the Chrysler 300".

You rant and rave so much about nonsensical and irrelevant issues, that it is really getting very old (frankly, you are pissing me and everyone else off!).

How many times must you argue about the same old crap - ad nauseam? No once cares about your biased and ill informed opinions. But I don't expect you to understand that.

Let's stick to the subject. If you don't like it, then tough. I guess you have been banned from all the Chevy forums, so you keep badgering everyone here.

A REAL TL OWNER!!

 

Actually as far as we know he's only been banned from Acura forums.

 

Skeedatl,

I guess I don't get why he's here period. He's free to do as he wishes of course but at this point it seems he is only here to argue.

Hmmmmm at times I guess it seems I am too when I'm answering him but I digress, I own a TL....

 

I think his statement is relevent to ALL new cars because it indicates that "unaltered" 35 year old Chevelles made a lot more power (relative to the newer cars, like the TL) than they ACTUALLY did.

Something you'd likely hear @ a "muscle car" gathering:

- You: "My TL makes 270 HP."

- Assclown with the 35 year old Chevelle: "Well, my 1969 Chevelle made 105 MORE HP than that - stock."

See, it didn't. But many of those who are still effectively living in that era like to THINK it did by ignoring the fact that SAE GROSS HP ratings (pre 1972) aren't even remotely comparable to today's SAE NET ratings.

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~tcroy/horsepower.htm

 

Edit.... I said I was going to stop responding to him and here I responded....

Now he will continue on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.............................