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Old 08-26-2016, 09:45 AM
  #9121  
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normally, 19 times out of 20, I'd choose the sporty variant over the luxury variant. But in this case, I dunno, I think the V packs enough punch as is. Yours pushes what, 550/540? the new ones are like 640hp/600lbft? Dang.

Don't get me wrong- I have a TON of respect for Dodge and the hellcats themselves. I can't applaud them enough. I stare every time I see one drive by and weep a little, while sitting in my car that really needs more power
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:47 AM
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and that 707 hp is wayyyy underrated..
the pamphlet says 707/650.. but at the wheel it's 640/600..
that crank hp/torque ain't right..
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:50 AM
  #9123  
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The V is great. Caddy has really brought prestige back to the brand.
I get it.. so much in fact, I did get it.
But inside.. I just like getting that bitch sideways and leaving a patch of rubber wherever I go.
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:51 AM
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What's also great about these cars, probably hellcat too.. is you can add power so easy. Slap a sticker on her and reliable 1000whp.
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:54 AM
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Ok, lecture my a$$ here for a second...

It seems drivetrain losses are always measured as a percentage, but that doesn't seem right to me.

For example, let's say you have a car rated at 500hp, but at the wheels, it's putting down 400hp (for simplicity's sake, a 20% drivetrain loss). Well let's say you turbo that car now and it is putting down 1000hp at the crank... shouldn't it be putting down 900hp at the wheels? The 20% drivetrain loss would suggest only 800hp at the wheels, but, you aren't necessarily introducing any new drivetrain losses. Why would you lose more power now even though you are still spinning the same drivetrain? Why wouldn't the drivetrain losses remain the same in both cases? Or do they?

If they do, the percentage loss wouldn't make sense.
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:57 AM
  #9126  
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My plan is 600 whp.. just pulley, injectors, plugs, headers, and some cooling mods.. just for shits.. I can grab +100 hp for a couple grand. Tuning support on this platform is nucking futs.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TacoBello
Ok, lecture my a$$ here for a second...

It seems drivetrain losses are always measured as a percentage, but that doesn't seem right to me.

For example, let's say you have a car rated at 500hp, but at the wheels, it's putting down 400hp (for simplicity's sake, a 20% drivetrain loss). Well let's say you turbo that car now and it is putting down 1000hp at the crank... shouldn't it be putting down 900hp at the wheels? The 20% drivetrain loss would suggest only 800hp at the wheels, but, you aren't necessarily introducing any new drivetrain losses. Why would you lose more power now even though you are still spinning the same drivetrain? Why wouldn't the drivetrain losses remain the same in both cases? Or do they?

If they do, the percentage loss wouldn't make sense.
conservation of energy mang
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:04 AM
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The % rule is just a quick way to guess hp to the wheels.. but there's no way crank hp is 707.. and the wheels see less than 10% loss. Too many moving components.. too much heat being dissipated among all those components.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:04 AM
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I'm not seeing how it plays into this. Explain to my simple a$$.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:05 AM
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Physics cuzz.. powah = heat = loss
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:09 AM
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Moar powah = moar friction (rubs vaseline on gears) = moar heat ~ percentage rule still somewhat applies.. comprende?
Like I said.. percentage isn't a static val here.. it's just for guesstimations
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:18 AM
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In super simple terms, Fr = μN

where:

Fr is the resistive force of friction
μ is the coefficient of friction for the two surfaces (Greek letter "mu")
N is the normal or perpendicular force pushing the two objects together

μ doesn't change, it's a factor of the drivetrain construction. So as N goes up (moar HPs), Fr must go up. That's your losses. They cannot stay static and still comply with the laws of physics.

And as my mamma always told me, "the one law you *must* obey is the law of physics."
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:19 AM
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Or some shit. Lol I dunno!!! Shitcocks!!!
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:20 AM
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...perpendicular force...

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Old 08-26-2016, 10:20 AM
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Don't listen to the english prof. what the fuck does he know about physics




except what you read in a book..
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:22 AM
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Reported

don't go home early, don't collect paycheck today, cactus on the way
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:22 AM
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It's from some basic ass website about derp shit for dummies. But the equation is sound. And taco so dumb he'll never know if we don't tell him.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:22 AM
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white text.. white text

shit.. self-reported
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:23 AM
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just for the record.. I love black text

I have like 2 or 3 black text fonts
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cu2wagon
It's from some basic ass website about derp shit for dummies. But the equation is sound. And taco so dumb he'll never know if we don't tell him.

that's true...



E= mc2 taco, that's why


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Old 08-26-2016, 10:27 AM
  #9141  
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Originally Posted by thoiboi
E= mc2
I'm sure Einstein and his fellow scientist were expecting the first nuke to be only slightly more powerful than a box of TNT

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Old 08-26-2016, 10:28 AM
  #9142  
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Maj, sometimes I have no idea wtf you're on about.

The only thing I know about friction is force of jackin' it and no spit makes chafing.

Shitz, dirty little secret, I'm absolute shit at conjugating nouns and shit too. When the kids ask, I just mumble something about how they should have learned that already and I don't have time to go over remedial English.

Works every time!
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cu2wagon
In super simple terms, Fr = μN

where:

Fr is the resistive force of friction
μ is the coefficient of friction for the two surfaces (Greek letter "mu")
N is the normal or perpendicular force pushing the two objects together

μ doesn't change, it's a factor of the drivetrain construction. So as N goes up (moar HPs), Fr must go up. That's your losses. They cannot stay static and still comply with the laws of physics.

And as my mamma always told me, "the one law you *must* obey is the law of physics."
You're making it much too simple, cul0.

I found this article, however, I'm not trusting it fully because of the source. It does seem to make sense though:

Drivetrain loss is a common topic of conversation in the tuner world because any time you strap your car to a chassis dyno, the output being measured is at the wheel, not at the crank like the published SAE net horsepower figures used by the auto industry. Strap your 298-bhp RevUp G35 Coupe to the dyno and you may be disappointed to see little more than 220-230 horses measured at the rear wheels. Where did that 60-plus horsepower go missing? It was used up in a variety of ways before it could reach the drive wheels, the primary source being what's broadly described as drivetrain loss.

What's interesting about this example is that when you do the math you'll see that the percent loss is much higher than the 15 percent "rule" you'll find in any number of online threads on the subject. For whatever reason, drivetrain loss seems to be one of the most poorly understood subjects discussed on online car forums, so despite my love of the Internet and the limitless pornography it makes available to me, when it comes to a fairly technical subject like this it's hard to find good information.

A few years ago, I needed to educate myself on drivetrain losses while heading a rulebook committee for a local racing series that wanted to use dyno tests to measure engine output and then convert the results to net horsepower. After fruitlessly Googling and sifting through endless car forum threads polluted with half-truths and misinformation, I turned to the same source that developed the current manufacturer horsepower standard, the Society of Automobile Engineers (SAE). On its website you can access brief summaries of technical papers published by some of the world's leading automotive engineers and download the complete documents for a relatively small fee (usually less than $10 per article). As luck would have it, in 2002 the SAE held a symposium on transmission and driveline systems, and the papers that came out of it covered drivetrain loss in great detail.

One of the first things I learned from reading these papers was to completely disregard the 15 percent drivetrain loss "rule" (or any other percent value) that so often comes up during online discussions of whp versus net horsepower. The fact of the matter is every vehicle experiences different levels of drivetrain loss as determined by the design of its transmission and driveline components. Simply put, the amount of horsepower lost to the forces of inertia, drag, windage, pumping and friction are different for every engine, transmission and driveline design.

So the total power lost between combustion and forward motion is specific to each vehicle and therefore no single rule, percentage or fixed number, could possibly apply to all vehicles. Even on the most superficial level, this is easy enough to understand because an all-wheel-drive Subaru obviously has a lot more driveline components to spin (front, middle and rear differentials along with front and rear driveshafts and two prop shafts) and a beefier transmission to hold all that turbocharged torque, so it's naturally going to suffer from greater drivetrain losses than a Honda Fit with its much smaller and less robust transmission, smaller and lighter driveshafts (and no prop shaft) and single differential.

Breaking down the different types of losses that occur within a vehicle's drivetrain, steady-state losses occur while the vehicle is cruising at a steady or constant speed, where average angular acceleration is zero because no additional torque is being called upon to accelerate the drivetrain's rotational mass. Within the drivetrain, steady-state power losses occur from the following components: the transmission torque converter (in the case of automatic transmissions), the transmission oil pump, clutch pack drag, one-way clutch drag, seal and bearing drag, gear windage and friction, and final drive losses.

Dynamic drivetrain losses, on the other hand, include the rotational inertial losses from angular acceleration occurring within the drivetrain while accelerating. In fact, during acceleration there are losses from the rotational inertia of spinning transmission and differential internals as well as driveline components like driveshafts and prop shafts, but also from the increased load and friction being generated between the gears within the transmission and differential(s). And as you already know, with increased friction comes increased heat (more on that later).

It's important to understand the difference between steady-state and dynamic losses because SAE net horsepower, as reported by the auto industry, is measured in a steady-state condition. What this means is that the horsepower rating for your vehicle doesn't take into account dynamic losses that occur during acceleration. However, when you strap your car to a chassis dyno to measure its engine's output, the test is conducted at wide-open throttle and power is measured by the speed at which the dyno's rollers are accelerated. This means that drivetrain losses from rotational inertia and increasing friction, drag and windage are at work and will reduce the peak horsepower reading at the wheels.

Within the drivetrain itself, the primary loss sources are the differential and final drive, with further losses stemming from within the transmission, and in the case of AWD vehicles, from the transfer case. Within the transmission, as much as 30 to 40 percent of power loss can be attributed to the pump, with the clutch contributing another 20 to 25 percent. The rest of the loss within the transmission comes from seal drag, gear meshing, bearings, bushings and windage (drag on the gears caused by the gear oil). However, when dyno testing in the direct drive (1:1) gear, power is delivered directly through the mainshaft of the transmission, so the only loss sources are windage, friction and drag, resulting in total at-the-wheel losses as low as 1.5 to 2 percent, according to the published data.

Differential losses tend to be considerably larger, especially in the case of RWD and AWD vehicles where the torque path is turned 90 degrees as it enters the rear diff and exits it toward the rear wheels. In the case of hypoid-type gearsets (where the gear tooth profile is both curved and oblique) that are commonly used in RWD differentials, losses in the 6 to 10 percent range are the norm, while loss from the driveshaft(s) and prop shaft(s) tend to account for about 0.5 to 1 percent of total loss, depending on how well they're balanced and how many the vehicle is equipped with. In the case of FWD vehicles, the torque path is more direct to the front wheels and the use of efficient helical final drive gears means that drivetrain losses can be as much as 50 percent lower than on RWD and AWD vehicles.

In any drivetrain component with meshing gearsets, heat generated by contact friction between the gears is a significant contributor to drivetrain loss. This is true during steady-state driving, but is far more of an issue when the throttle is mashed to the floor and the resulting thrust force and angular acceleration builds up in these drivetrain components. The heat generated by this dynamic friction is absorbed by the transmission and differential fluid as well as radiated to the atmosphere through the transmission and differential housing(s), and in some cases, via a heat exchanger or oil cooler. This absorbed and radiated heat is literally the conversion of engine torque into thermal energy because you can't technically "lose" power, but can only convert it into other things (some of our favorites being forward motion and tire smoke).

It's also worth noting that the more powerful you make your engine, the greater the thrust force and angular acceleration it's able to exert on the drivetrain, generating even more friction and heat in the process. But because both steady-state and dynamic friction vary depending on engine speed, engine load and the efficiency of the engine and drivetrain's design (how well they limit friction and the associated thermal conversion of torque to heat), there's no way to apply a universal percent loss to it. Nor is it possible to apply a fixed drivetrain loss figure to your car (say 60 whp from my RevUp G35 example), because as you modify the engine and increase its output its ability to generate thrust force and angular acceleration also increases (though not in a linear fashion).

In the end, there's no easy way to estimate the drivetrain loss your vehicle experiences on the road or even on the dyno. Coast-down tests are sometimes used on a dyno to attempt to measure frictional losses, but because this test is not dynamic (meaning they're not done while accelerating, but rather while coasting to a stop with the direct drive gear engaged but the clutch depressed so that the engine and transmission aren't linked) it really only captures steady-state drivetrain losses as well as rolling resistance. So rather than attempting to convert your vehicle's dyno-measured wheel horsepower to a SAE net horsepower figure using a percentage or a fixed horsepower value, you're far better off accepting the fact that these two types of horsepower measurements aren't easily correlated and forego any attempt at doing so.
Drivetrain Power Loss - The 15% "Rule"- Modified Magazine

I'm hoping I can dig up some actual engineering articles on this. I'm interdasted now.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:32 AM
  #9144  
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I had a part time job doing tech support in our IT department. Basic script was:
1. Did you turn it off and on again.
2. I'm gonna need to reinstall Adobe Reader.
3. Google Ultron
4. Escalating to level 3, hang up.

Worked every time.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:32 AM
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I'm not saying the article is wrong, I just want a more credible source for the information, besides Modified Magazine
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cu2wagon
The only thing I know about friction is force of jackin' it and no spit makes chafing.
If you know anything about rotors.. and you do.. rubbing lube on your penis will reduce friction thus reducing performance.
You should try using sand next time.. rub skin off penis.. ejaculate so hard you punch a hole into the wall.
Watchout for little kids.

And as my title states.. no vas.

Attachment 98657





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Old 08-26-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by TacoBello
You're making it much too simple, cul0.

I found this article, however, I'm not trusting it fully because of the source. It does seem to make sense though:



Drivetrain Power Loss - The 15% "Rule"- Modified Magazine

I'm hoping I can dig up some actual engineering articles on this. I'm interdasted now.
I'm clearly seeing why they call you Adumb.. did you not take thermo in school?
All that mumbo jumbo paragraphs saying what I said in an incomplete sentence.

Also, nothing wrong with modified mag.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Majofo
conservation of energy mang
Originally Posted by Majofo
The % rule is just a quick way to guess hp to the wheels.. but there's no way crank hp is 707.. and the wheels see less than 10% loss. Too many moving components.. too much heat being dissipated among all those components.
Originally Posted by Majofo
Physics cuzz.. powah = heat = loss
Originally Posted by Majofo
Moar powah = moar friction (rubs vaseline on gears) = moar heat ~ percentage rule still somewhat applies.. comprende?
Like I said.. percentage isn't a static val here.. it's just for guesstimations
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:40 AM
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I love it when that gif shoots jizz at Tom Cruise..
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:42 AM
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Triggered

Attachment 101357
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:42 AM
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I know, I just wanted to get something a bit more thorough than what you stated. Something about learneding and readeding and stuff.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:43 AM
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and also, engineering papers > modified mag
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:44 AM
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cul0.. read us some of dem fancy books of yers.. and don't use that confusing french english bullshit from bill shakeaspear
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Majofo
I'm clearly seeing why they call you Adumb.. did you not take thermo in school?
All that mumbo jumbo paragraphs saying what I said in an incomplete sentence.

Also, nothing wrong with modified mag.
I haven't been in school for a decade now! I barely remember what I ate for breakfast

I actually really enjoyed thermo... but haven't used it since 3rd year.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TacoBello
I haven't been in school for a decade now! I barely remember what I ate for breakfast

I actually really enjoyed thermo... but haven't used it since 3rd year.
you should give up job as manager
give up high loonie pay
become intern again, know everything
get me coffee
thermodynamics
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:47 AM
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:51 AM
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Although if you become an intern.. some creepy IT cuck will probably post about how some HPOA just joined
Take upskirt pic, post it online, and go on about how he'd like to shove his ethernet cable into your crossover port
Then send you some downloaded pictures of pineapples or some shit..
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:55 AM
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Thermo is one kickass class.. that's where I learned using vaseline is no bueno.
I've been one raw doggin asshole ever since
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Majofo
you should give up job as manager
give up high loonie pay
become intern again, know everything
get me coffee
thermodynamics
but... My job relies on fluid dynamics, not thermo.

like how much fluid am I gonna bust in thoiboi's hungry mouf
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:25 AM
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I think you can do a (metric) shit-tonne of research and in the end you'll end up right back at "rule of thumb is 15-20% drivetrain loss".

There are so many independent variables and so many unique situations that it really isn't feasible or worthwhile to figure out *exactly* how much loss there is in your Jizzmo or my CUNTWagon.

Now if we were the Minardi F1 team, well, we'd still just use 15%. But someone like Ferrari or McLaren, probably know exactly.

Get some graph paper, a pencil, some coffee/red bull/cuh'cane, and start diagramming out your tranny. Don't forget the big ol' dick, and you'll get the answer eventually. It'll be 16.8%.
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