Hi

I have had time to take it a little easier over the past few days and took the opportunity to understand and then replicate the issue discussed in one of the reviews.

First, an obvious statement (you will understand a bit later why I make this stmt), the SH-AWD is designed to bring the car back in line. So from that stand point what I experienced is understandable.

Second, how the car behaved was both predictable at first but then the next couple of car movements were unusual.

Third, is this something that The Globe experienced?

I was at about 25mph, accelerated quickly, and made a left turn at about 45 deg and during the turn accelerated a bit more than normal to create a yaw movement. The whole car, all 4 tires, slid to the right (the tires are a real issue here), and then the rear got loose and then stopped sliding and snapped back causing the front to bite. Under normal circumstances when drifting you will bring your front wheels straight and accelerate out.

What I think happened and the role of the electric rear motors and how the SH-AWD program might be working. In this case the rear motors/traction caused the car to go hunting for traction left right then left and requiring me to to snap the wheel right when the rear motors kicked in and then left to accelerate out rather than just let the rear wheels bite and for me to straighten the car.

If someone has not experienced the movement of the car as I experienced it, this will be disconcerting. Not what I was expecting and I was able to recreate it under both dry and wet conditions. No one around and very safe. You can try with a cone in a parking lot.

I believe the car is doing what it is programmed to do. But because each rear wheel is independently actuated it is causing an odd behavior.

Just wanted to share for those who might be interested in figuring this out. With better tires (in terms of stickiness) I think the car will behave more like a regular drift with steering and acceleration correction. Here it required a bit a tricky snap steering, brake/acceleration, and then just acceleration to bring the car in line.

This could be what the The Globe writer experienced.

 

Basic driving question:

Would the CPR I've learned about in HPDEs help in this situation? Seems like it would be a bit more difficult under the circumstance you describe.

For those who don't know: CPR="Correct, Pause, Recover"

Edit: Reread post. It appears you did the standard CPR + an extra maneuver once the rear motors kicked in?

 

Hi

Not sure if CPR would help. It depends on the driver and also on the entry speed. I tried at various speeds until I got the rear to break and for the car to have enough momentum that the maneuver was possible. This required more speed around the curve and some space for me to get the car "righted". This should not be an issue in normal driving unless you enter the curb hot. But if you do enter hot than the CPR will help depending on reflexes and room around you. If there are many cars around then I am not sure what happens.

What is important here is that I did find adhesion limit as well as the behavior of the car. Adhesion was less than I had hoped for and the behavior was different than prior car experiences, on road, off road, driving, and racing. Just something to keep in mind.

As to your second point=you are correct; CPR +1. The rear motors kicking in to right the car was most unusual experience...while I expected something the feeling was like a boat rolling...not sure that quite captures it but the rear was fishing while the whole car is moving forward with the front planted. The fishing required the extra maneuver.

 

I want to ask a couple of questions, if you don't mind.

Were you in Sport Mode? I'm sort of assuming that you must've been, but you didn't actually say so.

Words like snap, in your case, and squirrelly in the Canadian author's case, are not words that anybody would want to hear in relation to an erstwhile high performance sports sedan.

So I want to be sure I understand what you're saying.

Is it your impression that the car's rear electric motors had uncoupled and they were trying to point the car in the direction you'd turned the front wheels? This is what they're supposed to be doing at 10/10 and in Sport Mode.

Or was it your impression that the systems were trying to straighten you out using stability controls at all four wheels, regardless of where you'd pointed the front wheels?

You said snap twice. Am I correct that you are referring to your input, not the car's input?

 

I tried in both modes and the experience was relatively the same. The actual event that I am writing about was in NON-SPORT MODE.

You are correct. I was "turning" the wheel very fast or "snapping" to correct the way the car was pointed so to match the front and the rear and then apply power. HOWEVER, once the rear wheels got their traction back AND got power through the rear motors the rear of the car did snap back--no different than the slide stopping.

I think it is this with a bit of your comment of the rear wheels working to point the car.

I believe the wheels had not uncoupled during the turn or the slide initially. I suspect the rear motors activated to correct the car's position once I snapped the wheel to the right and then had to correct because that action (steering wheel to the right) caused the car rear (sliding and then receiving power) to straighten and then for the car rear to feel like trying to straighten the car with both the front wheels and rear wheels working at the same time all the while the car is moving forward.

So, it is 10/10 with the difference that the rear wheels are not connected through any kind of mechanical differential. Imagine the feeling that the 4 wheels are trying to bring the car in line to an imaginary center point of the car that is in line to where the road is as seen by the front camera/radar (CMBS and all electronic nannies were on). That is why it felt like fishing left, right, and then left.

It is the closest type of event that I experienced that I believe is described in the Globe review.

What I think the car is trying to do: front heavy car with independent rear motors acting through software to bring the car safely in a line that is created by the electronic nannies and to a stop.

What I experienced is the above but with the difference that the slide to the right and the concurrent forward momentum was corrected with steering and power in a manner that I have not been through before. In such a turn, normally, a FWD car will plow and the rear will break. A RWD will slide and power will correct it. This was something new for me.

It was safe and easy to correct once I figured it out. It is not anything drivers will experience if driving normally. I wanted to understand what the Globe said. There is something there.

Thoughts?

 

Well, my first thought is that nobody considered for ½ a moment that it'd even occur to us to try to drift a 5G New Legend.



But setting that aside, my personal experiences do not exactly mirror yours, so I'll be dissecting things and perhaps venturing out to try something myself, again.

I think that comments like the ones you made will be helpful in the retuning of the programming before the February release of the 2015 Legend.

 

Well, my first thought is that nobody considered for ½ a moment that it'd even occur to us to try to drift a 5G New Legend.



Well...only way to find out what was going on....have been told before that I am up to do some weird things and it never crossed my mind that you could not break the rear or drift a car...any car. LOL

 

Generally speaking, the car rewards a smoothness that we have to decide whether it's our right to expect out of the typical driver.

And as you're generally aware, drifting is not smooth until after you've been able to start the drift. The car's instincts the way that it is released in the form we drive is to resist the inputs you put into the car to set the angle of the drift.

To exactly duplicate what the Canadian author was trying to do, you'd have to find a skid pad and gradually increase the speed around the skid pad until the rear wheels began to lose traction. At that point, the two electric motors would simulate effectively the actions of the best clutch pack LSD.

I don't know what to say about your findings. I feel sublimely stupid, but I just never thought of doing that.

:-)

 

I don't know if you're aware of the Hype R Fest phenomenon on the East Coast, but when it started we were told that the drift competition was useless because it was almost impossible to get a Type R or similar class of vehicle to drift well.

Well, they got it to work, usually with some of the crazier H1 cars.

Now, the drift competition is a completely different class of car and class of people. It's no longer a way to get more fun out of your Honda Challenge car, and it attracts people who have no intention of ever racing in Honda Challenge.

I think that the last time I paid attention to the drift competition, it was won by James Evans in a modified 240SX.

 

I agree with you. This car is meant for smoothness and NOT for drifting. Breaking the rear and its subsequent behavior was a clear demonstration of its intended design.

Your comment about the behavior from LSD clutch pack is interesting. I think the rear motors behave independently and until ACURA refines algorithms to accommodate what the Globe experienced or what I experienced it will not act as best LSD clutch pack. Maybe they have taken care of it on the NSX as it has gone through the Nordschleife drill.

Believe me I have felt plenty stupid myself on oft occasions as I see the plain and simple in front of me and I ask myself...why did I not think of that...

Cheers!

 

Keep in mind that my experience is 100% on road courses. :-)

 

Yes...I was in another country a month ago and from my hotel window I watched a Nissan 240 and also a 280 drift in a parking lot. They were at it for about 1 hour. Both favorite models for that kind of sport.

 

https://acurazine.com/forums/third-g.../#post15291443

The above link continues the conversation started here. Just making sure that readers are aware of another person experiencing an event when car pushed hard.

 

Yesterday, I experienced a de-coupling and rapid rotation in a roundabout. This was a little more sudden than I have experienced before.

I'll say again that if you don't know that this can happen, and you try to correct for it too much, you'll get into trouble and a potential tail wagging situation. Backing off the throttle would exaggerate the "problem" (if it is a problem).

I can very well imagine that someone unacquainted with the car's behavior might've been caught off guard by that.

This was not in Sport Mode. Just regular driving, in a roundabout, speed about 35 mph...which is really faster than you should take this particular roundabout.

I'm not sure how to tell them to "fix" that or even if it is something that requires a "fix."

Because of all of the data being produced, the car decided that I was asking for more rotation.

 

George, thanks for sharing. What did you end up doing to bring the car back to its original vector?

As to the "fix"; I believe you have to model what the torque sharing and vectoring algorithm is doing in the three instances where three separate owners experienced this issue. Acura may need to make sure that the rear wheel/tq/rotation matches the required power curve to maintain a controllable slide and bring the car to the right vector. This may include slowing the front wheel and/or accelerate the rear wheel, etc....

It will be experiential....no single and direct way to do it....because of the 4 wheels and the fact that the rears get INSTANT torque while the front have to spool up.

 

Nothing much, just loosened the wheel. :-)

Okay, well, I sort of did something.... I put my foot down *more* to see if it was completely controllable, and it was. The car behaved correctly and I just loosened the wheel.

My fear is that it's an experience with which most people would be unfamiliar, and a driver might try to correct something that should not be corrected, or even worse, when he tries to "correct" it he will go too far and start a seesaw behavior from which he cannot easily escape.

I don't know why they'd do this unless they had a clear expectation that the majority of cars would be going to enthusiasts.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember this, but when the Porsche 917 was homologated, they were afraid enough of the car that you had to have an FIA license to be considered as a purchaser. And even then, you pretty much had to know somebody named Piech or Porsche to get one.

This is not that extreme a case, of course, I just happened to remember that.

:-)

 

Yep. Correct maneuver and I can speak from having done it in this car.

Also, agree with what a unfamiliar person might do.

Just like you said we both had a high speed of entry and that something most people would not do and therefore not have to react.

Glad to read that three of us experienced the event, nothing happened, and it can be rectified by Acura.

 

Are we sure we want it changed? I'm not really sure over here.

And can't help wondering if this is why they say the JDM rollout of the 5G New Legend is delayed....

 

Great discussion, and this sounds familiar to some of the things the 2G RL SH-AWD owners experienced. This roundabout move is something I regularly do on my way home, and giving the rear *more* torque is indeed the way optimize this maneuver. Of course in the mechanical SH, positive torque is required to make the SH system work.

But I bring this up because I'd guess that less than 1% of 2G RL owners would know that this would be the correct move. Definitely not an 'expected' move unless you're a long time Subaru driver who knows how AWD can be put to good use. My wife has a WRX that I can tail around that roundabout at tire-squealing speeds

So I'd say that with the new fully independent eSH in the RLX, that one would need to 'learn' what the correct moves should be and not depend on prior experience as the basis for steering corrections, braking or power inputs.

Now, if the programming is not handling a 10/10 zig-zag move correctly, then that's another matter, but it sounds like it's doing what its supposed to, even if the drivers don't expect it.

 

And that's the bone of contention.

It might be okay for 250 US and Canadian enthusiasts to know about this and learn the ideas behind it.

But is it okay to go into 2015 JDM Legend production, assuming there's maybe 2000 of these things in Japan instead of 200?

And is it okay to revive production for the USDM and CDM in 2016 without changing this behavior?

The rear end goes from a situation where both 36 HP motors are providing forward momentum, to a situation where one of the motors disconnects at the clutch and provides a retarding influence. It's possible that the other motor starts providing more power at the same time.

And at the moment the car decides that this is the behavior for which you are asking, it happens quickly. It's not really an analogue gradual change...it's a digital more or less instant change.

This can provide a more powerful point, and a quicker point than you'd experience in your STi or any other car in production at the moment.

Is this....

• Normal and expected?
• A learning curve?
• Needing programming correction?

 

Acura should not change the way experienced people control the car. What Acura can do is to ensure that the system warns visually and audibly that the car is working the nannies to correct the situation.

 

^^^^^
That's the ideal solution.

 

This car sounds a bit like a four-seat S2000!

In that case, the rear ARB was a bit too stiff and if you over-corrected one way, it tends to ping you off backwards the other way.

As George suggested, the correct response was to keep moderate power on & let go of the wheel - or snap it back only to straight ahead point at first and not wind up the rear ARB.

Actually, the RLX sounds rather fun in an S2000 sort of way.

 

I definately would not characterize the RLX SH as S2000ish as that is about 1/2 the weight, but I understand where you are coming from. I drove one of those years ago and marveled at the sweeping tach and the 9k red line. What left me at the door was the complete lack of torque. That was not for me. Now a C7Z06 would do just the trick. I will have to do a few more things around the house to get my wife to be on board with that little purchase! I'm not holding my breath. But I did do the math and it would be around $1600 per month for 72 months. Now if I can just roll the quarters...

Actually I can easily afford it, but my wife would never go for it. A boy can dream.

 

Just remember, the S2000 was not about the torque, it was about the 8900 rpm redline and the handling. Just saying.