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With the new 3.0L turbo 6 in the 2021 Type S TLX coming soon, does anyone know if they plan on putting that engine in any of the SUVs (RDX/MDX)? If they did that, I would never even consider buying any other car.
My guess is that it will stay in the TLX S for a while.
Also, I am not aware of any firm numbers on the 3.0t and I'm not even sure it is a single or twin turbo - I'm assuming it will be a single smaller turbo for reliability and smoother driving. Based on Audi/BMW I anticipate 330-340hp and about the same torque. The 3.5na is 290hp so 40-50hp more than that seems reasonable. That spec I suspect that mpg would drop about 2mpg.
My guess is that it will stay in the TLX S for a while.
Also, I am not aware of any firm numbers on the 3.0t and I'm not even sure it is a single or twin turbo - I'm assuming it will be a single smaller turbo for reliability and smoother driving. Based on Audi/BMW I anticipate 330-340hp and about the same torque. The 3.5na is 290hp so 40-50hp more than that seems reasonable. That spec I suspect that mpg would drop about 2mpg.
FWIW, Motor1.com stating "not official yet" HP rating for 3.0T as 380 - 400hp. (@1:00min in video)
The RDX seems to be pretty balanced with the 2.0T. Seems it might be a little nose heavy with the 3.0T up front. I figured Acura would either borrow the Civic Type-R +300 hp engine or add hybrid tech to the current 2.0T for a more sporty Type-S or Type-R RDX model.
There was a dealer video posted in another thread that answered this question; yes for the MDX, no for the RDX. MDX Type S to be introduced as a 2021 (at least that was plan before Covid);
Why there’s no Type S for the RDX is unclear. Some think it’s because the chassis for the RDX can not accommodate the 6 cylinder engine. So that means we would have to wait until 2025 model year for an all-new RDX before it got an upgraded engine.
Last edited by Waetherman; 06-26-2020 at 04:29 PM.
It will be in the MDX next year when the MDX Type S debuts asking with some sort of mild hybrid system and air suspension. It's on my list to buy probably end of next year.
I'm even hearing the Type S will have some special paint better than any Acura we've seen thus far.
There was a dealer video posted in another thread that answered this question; yes for the MDX, no for the RDX. MDX Type S to be introduced as a 2021 (at least that was plan before Covid);
Why there’s no Type S for the RDX is unclear. Some think it’s because the chassis for the RDX can not accommodate the 6 cylinder engine. So that means we would have to wait until 2025 model year for an all-new RDX before it got an upgraded engine.
When they launched the RDX they said the front end was built to hold a V6 so the fact that the dealer deck doesn't list a Type S RDX is confusing/confounding. That said, I'd largely prefer a Civic Type-R 2.0T with a kick ass hybrid boost to give it torque fill so there's seamless power all the time. That's easily a 380hp setup which is what I'd expect a Type S to be like.
There have been rumors* of an RDX Sport Hybrid along the lines of the MDX, and I don’t think the sales chart rules that out - the hybrid MDX (if it still exists in the new model) isn’t differentiated in the chart so it wouldn’t seem an RDX would be either. The chart is all about the Type S, and the hybrid wouldn’t be a Type S.
If it we’re similar to the MDX, an RDX Sport Hybrid could have an extra 130 hp with electric motors front and rear, for a total of about 400. hp. And the torque from the electric motors would certainly make up for turbo lag. It would be pretty ideal in that respect. I wonder though if handling would take a hit; with all the motors I’m not sure they could maintain the ability for the AWD to send as much power rearward. It just seems very complicated. The MDX hybrid (from my limited research) seems to have a much more FWD bias.
*rumors get started with one guy saying “wouldn’t it be cool if” and that later gets turned into “my buddy at Honda says” so it’s all pure speculation at this point.
Acura has this annoying habit of never letting a lower model have more HP than the next model up. If Acura does makes a RDX Type-S or R, it will have 10-20 less hp compared to the MDX Type-R. The MDX Type-R would need to be +390 hp if the RDX Type-R was 380 hp.
A lot of advantages going with the hybrid powertrain:
- shawd works in all driving situations w/ or w/o engine power (turns, braking, acceleration, bad weather, low traction situations, etc...)
- extremely smooth and seamless Auto Stop/Start between engine and EV mode
- instant TQ
- the hybrid system is one of the most advanced tq vectoring system on the market
- regen braking saves wear on brakes, electric motors puts less stress on transmission
- lower center of gravity (but at more weight) for better handling
- city mpgs can equal or exceed hwy mpgs
- no extra maint or extra service intervals required other than using different fluids for DCT/rear twin motors
The downsides I've seen to hybrid prowertrain are:
- doesn't like any cold weather 35 degrees F or less (less EV mode the colder it gets)
- might get a smaller gas tank, less rear storage, or no room for a spare
- no EV mode or shawd at +80 mph, basically fwd at those speeds
- no towing, bike rack or cargo carrier at most if Acura sticks with the DCT
Acura has this annoying habit of never letting a lower model have more HP than the next model up...
We know the engine in non Type-S models of the new TLX and MDX will be the same 272/280 2.0T we have now. (As reported, anyway) We obviously don't know about Type-S power.
One of the issues identified by the Honda CEO as a drain on profit was too many variant models. Model specific engines is likely an example of what he meant. Since we can only guess at this point, I'm guessing just two engines across the lines. One hot; one not.
We know the engine in non Type-S models of the new TLX and MDX will be the same 272/280 2.0T we have now. (As reported, anyway) We obviously don't know about Type-S power.
One of the issues identified by the Honda CEO as a drain on profit was too many variant models. Model specific engines is likely an example of what he meant. Since we can only guess at this point, I'm guessing just two engines across the lines. One hot; one not.
They never said base MDX will use 4cyl Turbo engine.
They never said base MDX will use 4cyl Turbo engine.
I don't think it's official but it seems to make sense to offer the 2.0T in their base trim and then the 3.0T in their top trims (including the Type S). Several of their competitors offer a 2.0T in their base trims - XC90, Q7, and GLE - so it seems reasonable that it's offered in the MDX. The MDX is relatively light for its class and will probably stay that way in the new release so it should be enough power for many customers.
The guys in the video are incorrect. Just like they're incorrect about the MDX they saw testing exclusively, which is the base model
The MDX will still have a base engine that is a V6 with some sort of large vehicle hybrid system. This engine will be shared with the next gen Pilot and Ridgeline as well.
The guys in the video are incorrect. Just like they're incorrect about the MDX they saw testing exclusively, which is the base model
The MDX will still have a base engine that is a V6 with some sort of large vehicle hybrid system. This engine will be shared with the next gen Pilot and Ridgeline as well.
Not saying you're wrong or you're right, but a source would be nice.
Not saying you're wrong or you're right, but a source would be nice.
I can't give you specific sources but I have more than one. They wanted to put the 2.0T in but didn't. Reveal is scheduled for October so it's not too far away.
The guys in the video are incorrect. Just like they're incorrect about the MDX they saw testing exclusively, which is the base model
The MDX will still have a base engine that is a V6 with some sort of large vehicle hybrid system. This engine will be shared with the next gen Pilot and Ridgeline as well.
Do you think it will be some sort of sport hybrid or just regular hybrid like CRV (with optional mechanical AWD)?
Do you think it will be some sort of sport hybrid or just regular hybrid like CRV (with optional mechanical AWD)?
My impression is the V6 will come with 48V mild hybrid. Some said base model will use detuned 3.0 V6, but from the leaked images in the navigation unit, I think I saw an image of J35. In any case, it will have a V6. 2.0T on MDX without hybrid assist is a poor idea, as evident by the poor MPG on RDX. Although I like the idea of hybridized 2.0T on RDX, the next MDX is moving upsacle, so I doubt the idea 2.0T+48V MH can pass product planning stage....
Another way to get an idea of what Acura will do is to look at the competition. Non-hybrid powertrains are fast becoming the way it used to be.
"The 2021 Audi Q5 has a new, standard mild-hybrid powertrain that mates a low-voltage belt-starter generator to a mostly carryover 2.0-liter turbocharged inline-four. The updated engine produces an additional 13 horsepower (10 kilowatts) relative to 2020, for a total of 261 hp (195 kW) – torque remains constant at 273 pound-feet (370 newton-meters). The mild-hybrid powertrain recaptures energy on coasting and braking to recharge the 12-volt battery, but unlike the 48-volt mild-hybrid setup on the larger Q7, it doesn’t reduce turbo lag or power advanced suspension systems. "
Another way to get an idea of what Acura will do is to look at the competition. Non-hybrid powertrains are fast becoming the way it used to be.
"The 2021 Audi Q5 has a new, standard mild-hybrid powertrain that mates a low-voltage belt-starter generator to a mostly carryover 2.0-liter turbocharged inline-four. The updated engine produces an additional 13 horsepower (10 kilowatts) relative to 2020, for a total of 261 hp (195 kW) – torque remains constant at 273 pound-feet (370 newton-meters). The mild-hybrid powertrain recaptures energy on coasting and braking to recharge the 12-volt battery, but unlike the 48-volt mild-hybrid setup on the larger Q7, it doesn’t reduce turbo lag or power advanced suspension systems. "
Wait a second, this sounds like an evolution what BMW has been doing for years, where the generator is only coupled when coasting/braking or when absolutely needed. Maybe the advantage is smoother startup from auto idle stop. To me this sounds more like marketing talk, and not really mild hybrid at all...
I guess 48V is still a little expensive, and for Acura I get the feeling that they cannot hit the profit point adding 48V mild hybrid below 45k so far.
My guess is that it will stay in the TLX S for a while.
Also, I am not aware of any firm numbers on the 3.0t and I'm not even sure it is a single or twin turbo - I'm assuming it will be a single smaller turbo for reliability and smoother driving. Based on Audi/BMW I anticipate 330-340hp and about the same torque. The 3.5na is 290hp so 40-50hp more than that seems reasonable. That spec I suspect that mpg would drop about 2mpg.
From what I've read it is a single turbo but it is a twin scroll turbo. Some reports have said 'twin turbo' but they are wrong, it is 'twin scroll.'
From what I've read it is a single turbo but it is a twin scroll turbo. Some reports have said 'twin turbo' but they are wrong, it is 'twin scroll.'
Yeah, all signals point to a single turbo V6 right now. Will be really interesting to see what kind of packaging they are running to make that work - the other single turbo V6s (namely the Audi 3L turbo) puts the exhaust in the valley but it's a 90 degree V so there's room for it. Not sure how Acura has figured it out - is it like their F1 motor where the turbines are split far apart? That's a non-trivial way to build it. Does it have electric support? Acura's been pretty vague about it.
From what I've read it is a single turbo but it is a twin scroll turbo. Some reports have said 'twin turbo' but they are wrong, it is 'twin scroll.'
I agree. It makes more sense to go with the twin scroll. It seems like they have the current one turned for low lag and strong low end torque. If they want to go in that direction then the twin scroll is a better bet than twin turbo - not to mention the advantages of reduced complexity.
EDIT: Although, if they go twin scroll turbo and 3.0L then hp will be closer to 350hp if they want to maintain reasonable fuel economy, low lag, and hit emissions targets.
I think the real reason acura will offer turbo 3.0 in MDX first is the same reason they are offering 2.0/3.0T in TLX, and not ILX. Their top trim SUV is MDX, and not RDX. They figured that people buying MDX have deeper pockets and will be more likely to pay for 3.0T in it. Next gen MDX might be getting smaller, sportier and more performance oriented, which will make good portion of people interested in 3.0T to compete with Bmw X5 and etc.
they possibly view RDX as an entry level SUV, unfortunately...
I think the real reason acura will offer turbo 3.0 in MDX first is the same reason they are offering 2.0/3.0T in TLX, and not ILX. Their top trim SUV is MDX, and not RDX. They figured that people buying MDX have deeper pockets and will be more likely to pay for 3.0T in it. Next gen MDX might be getting smaller, sportier and more performance oriented, which will make good portion of people interested in 3.0T to compete with Bmw X5 and etc.
they possibly view RDX as an entry level SUV, unfortunately...
The MDX mules running around town are definitely bigger than the current model so while it should be sportier and more performance oriented (in line with the refreshed branding) it will likely come close to 200 inches - it'll probably mirror the Q7 in dimensions.
Another 3 row luxury crossover goes with a 4 cylinder at the base trim. That's Q7, GLE, XC60 and CT6 now. Only the X5 and Aviator doesn't come with a 4 cylinder so my money is on the turbo 4 making it into the MDX as well in the lower level trims.
The MDX mules running around town are definitely bigger than the current model so while it should be sportier and more performance oriented (in line with the refreshed branding) it will likely come close to 200 inches - it'll probably mirror the Q7 in dimensions.
Agree. RDX grew a bit in this iteration, and I think Acura wants to maintain separation between RDX and MDX. I doubt MDX will shrink.
But I wouldn't be too surprised if the 2.0T is the base engine, as with Q7. Current MDX is only a few hundred pounds heavier than RDX ( and much lighter than Q7 ). Obviously, some kind of hybrid electrification system wouldn't hurt.
"The Japanese luxury brand said Thursday the sport sedan's new turbo 3.0-liter V6 engine makes 355 hp and 354 pound-feet of torque, based on internal estimates. The figures could change for production, but they'll likely be close. For some comparison, that's 65 hp more than the outgoing TLX's V6."
That would be so awesome in the RDX. Too bad that isn't going to happen (at least not this generation).
I wonder if this is going to be the base engine for the MDX. It would be a step backwards to make the 4-cylinder the base engine because it would lose 20 hp from the current one. 355 6 cylinder would be sweet in the MDX. But then what would they do for the MDX Type-S?
That would be so awesome in the RDX. Too bad that isn't going to happen (at least not this generation).
I wonder if this is going to be the base engine for the MDX. It would be a step backwards to make the 4-cylinder the base engine because it would lose 20 hp from the current one. 355 6 cylinder would be sweet in the MDX. But then what would they do for the MDX Type-S?
You never know. Acura will upgrade for mid cycle next year for sure. May be they will come up with 3.0T engine for the RDX.
Doubt it's underrated, drivetrain is likely close to its limit at those power numbers. Also don't know how lucrative it would be for Acura to go that route. I suppose it depends on how much R&D it would cost to retrofit the 3.0T into the current RDX. The Audi SQ5 starts at under $53k, Acura would have do sell it for less than this to be competitive (probably right around the 50k mark). I personally think its a gorgeous car, I just can't stand VW/Audi engineering. I was strongly considering a Golf R until I smacked myself into reality.
Doubt it's underrated, drivetrain is likely close to its limit at those power numbers. Also don't know how lucrative it would be for Acura to go that route. I suppose it depends on how much R&D it would cost to retrofit the 3.0T into the current RDX. The Audi SQ5 starts at under $53k, Acura would have do sell it for less than this to be competitive (probably right around the 50k mark). I personally think its a gorgeous car, I just can't stand VW/Audi engineering. I was strongly considering a Golf R until I smacked myself into reality.
I agree. Another way to look at it is how many X3 M340i, SQ5, and GLC43 AMG sales would an RDX Type-S steal? Now I'm sure some RDX 2.0T owners might spring for the Type-S, but that would just be cannibalized sales. While I would choose the RDX Type-S over those three, I do know that not every buyer shares my tastes and preferences, and that the majority of people looking at $60K+ compact luxury crossovers likely don't have an Acura on their shortlist.
I agree. Another way to look at it is how many X3 M340i, SQ5, and GLC43 AMG sales would an RDX Type-S steal? Now I'm sure some RDX 2.0T owners might spring for the Type-S, but that would just be cannibalized sales. While I would choose the RDX Type-S over those three, I do know that not every buyer shares my tastes and preferences, and that the majority of people looking at $60K+ compact luxury crossovers likely don't have an Acura on their shortlist.
if I had 55-60k budget, and wanted something sporty, I would probably look at BMW instead of RDX type S
Yes, its possible 10sp cant handle any more HP.
for 3.0T, 355hp is low.
infinity red sport 3.0t is 400hp
For once I think we're in agreement about something.
Here's my take: we know that the 10AT was designed to be put into almost all new Hondas (and Acuras). In order for it to fit all these applications, more and more conditions would need to be met (fitment, drivability, towing capacity, cooling, etc.). Each new constraint and requirement means that compromises need to be made. For instance, we already know that they had to make the unit more compact in order to fit between the frame rails of the Odyssey, and typically when you make things smaller, you either lose strength or need to do something that costs more money to counteract it. It would not be much of a stretch to assume that while making these compromises, the ability to handle high torque output was probably not at the top of the priority list, especially since no Honda product would benefit from an overbuilt transmission (considering that Honda has never even put a V8 in their cars, I doubt any Honda will ever see a turbo-6). This leaves Acura with the unenviable task of beefing up the 10AT. Given that Acura is a relatively small operation and likely doesn't have enough resources, there's only so much they could do with something that probably wasn't really designed to handle high torque.
Now, why not source a transmission elsewhere? They tried that with the ZF9 and it bit them in the ass hard. I don't think anyone wants to go through that debacle again. And they can't go with the ZF8 because that's only for longitudinally mounted engines, and they can't got with an Aisin unit because they're majority owned by Toyota. And of course, they can't just build one from scratch because it would be financially unviable to do so just for a single car.
We all know Honda is fantastic at making motors, so if this one isn't up to snuff, I'm willing to bet it's because another component is holding it back, and the 10AT is a pretty damn good candidate. If not that, maybe the SHAWD unit,
...
We all know Honda is fantastic at making motors, so if this one isn't up to snuff, I'm willing to bet it's because another component is holding it back, and the 10AT is a pretty damn good candidate. If not that, maybe the SHAWD unit,
Yep, why wouldn't they go bigger if they could? This is a new engine design and 355/354 are not just arbitrary "good enough" ratings. They know where they are in the marketplace and would take this very expensive development opportunity to design a more dominant package if they reasonably could. They have to be hitting against some limiting component.
06-26-2020, 10:27 AM
