russianDude

yeah, I was hopping they go after infinity red sport, its kind of in the same price range and class.
on the other hand, Toyota supra 3.0t is 335hp.

Waetherman

...and the Macan S V6 is 345 hp. BMW 5’s max out at 335 hp for their 6 cylinders. 355 hp is pretty competitive in the class.

fiatlux

The supra is actually now 382. For whatever reason, they gave the 2020 the european b58 engine that is limited to 335hp for emissions reasons. for 2021 and beyond, it gets the north american b58 that has 382hp. it’s the same engine in the m340i, x3 m40i, etc.

DJA123

Good points. It would be unfair to compare Type-S to GTS or M lines that cost a small/midsize Hyundai more. And, the twin turbo Macan GTS is up only 20hp @375. It's definitely a competitive engine.

leomio85

That entire car was sourced from BMW. They were likely under contract to only advertise that power number while it actually makes quite a bit more. Same with the new one that is rated at 382. It's the same engine found in the M340i that's been dyno'd making closer to the 430-440HP range.

As long as they're not treating it like its considered "high performance." That's what irked me so badly about the TLX Type-S. It was propped up on a pedestal like it was on a mission to go after the Big 3 Germans (M340i, C43, S4). Instead, it came out with a whimper and barely squeaks past the oldest of the three, the S4, which will likely come with more power in a couple years time. As I said earlier, all their numbers are underrated. Still, I'd be excited to see it in the RDX. Probably won't happen, but who knows ... just so long as they don't do some other pomp and dance bullshit like they did with the TLX. I don't remember any of the commotion over any of the German cars being released. Probably because the Germans realize it's really not a level of performance to celebrate. Yes, it's more performance than many cars, but nothing deserving of the shit Acura is piling on. Hopefully somebody throws a lot of power at that drivetrain when it gets released to see what its limits are. If it can, I'll change my tune, but I'm going to wager that it's going to break some very expensive parts without adding too much more power.

russianDude

So price wise, if its 3-4k more, it makes sense to get 3.0t engine, but if they want like 10k more for 3.0t, I would probably pass

russianDude

thats good to know, I always had a thing for supra, I might get it when I have my midlife crisis 😀

fiatlux

If they celebrated those cars, imagine the party they'd have to throw for the M/RS/AMG cars...

Interestingly enough I don't remember seeing any sort of promotion or hyped up event even for the M/RS/AMG cars. I guess they let the product speak for itself?

NBPDC505

If you re-watch the TLX Type-S reveal, they explicitly mention the beefed up 10 speed that will be going into the car. For reference, there are Accord's using the Civic Type-R turbo with their 10 speed (same as the RDX) making over 350 wheel hp or to compare factory numbers that would be over 400hp and they are having 0 issues with slipping or any other issues. I'd wager the transmission behind the 3.0T will be more than capable of handling what's pushing it.

Waetherman

I think you (we) have become jaded about horsepower. Remember, the 911 which is a proper sports car is only 385 horsepower at almost exactly the same weight. So this is 90% of the power, same weight, in a four door sedan.

Yes, this is not an M/AMG killer. But it’s also half the price.

fiatlux

Here's the question though: how does it stack up to its direct competitors, the M340i, C43 AMG, and S4? It would be asinine to compare it to the M3/4, RS4/5, and C63 AMG, which I don't think anyone in the right mind would do. If it winds up performing worse than those cars but has a lower price that's commensurate with the lower performance, that's fair, but there will be quite a few of us who would rather pay more for the Type-S for more performance rather than fall back on the whole value game again. 90% of the performance for 80% of the price is fine and all, but damnit can't we for once have 100% of the performance for 95% of the price or 110% of the performance for the same price? I'd love to see what Acura could do if they priced the car to match the competition, but I guess they figure too many potential buyers will think "psh, I'm not paying BMW money for an Acura" and resigned themselves to competing on price, not performance.

leomio85

Yes, I'm spoiled. In 2005 I bought a Pontiac GTO (reskinned Holden Monaro) that came with 400HP for under $30k OTD with some negotiating and added mods to run 600rwHP (ok, 599rwHP if you want to be technical). It's fantastic running down cars who have no idea what you're even driving. But, being older and with issues cropping up from age, mileage and simply being a 2dr, RWD vehicle, I'm looking to get into something more practical and "family oriented" while still having a decent amount of power. I was strongly considering the Chevy SS back in 2017, but having to deal with some of the parts availability of another Australian vehicle swayed me against it. RWD isn't optimal, but throw some snow tires on there and some sandbags and you'll do better than most people around here with AWD and crappy all seasons. Right now, for me, the M340i holds the most interest, but who knows what will happen in a couple years when I'm more serious about car shopping.

I may consider a lightly used F90 M5, but I'm really not a huge fan of buying used. Having wrenched on cars, I've seen cars going back from lease that were absolutely driven into the ground with 20k miles on the clock. Most memorable was a guy in a Hyundai who did his first oil change right before he was about to bring it in. Said it was making a "ticking" noise so he figured he'd get his only oil change before turning it in so they wouldn't investigate. The entire internals were turned to sludge. The oil filter was completely encased in oil that had turned to a thick, solid slime. The motor was undeniably ruined. I showed him and he didn't care. He said just fill it with fresh oil and hopefully they won't notice. I'm sure he turned it in and so long as he leased another car thru them, they probably threw some "oil treatment" in there to quiet the valvetrain tick and sold it to some poor sucker and didn't charge the original customer with a motor replacement. I've also seen a woman melt a Toyota Camry shortblock and I was told by the customer Toyota was blaming me for using a non-Toyota oil filter on it. I confronted the dealer and the service manager gave me a perplexed look and explained that they absolutely didn't, and they blamed her poor maintenance on the demise of the engine, and that it was so bad the oil filter had actually fused to the block due to the engine temps being astronomical. But I digress, too many stories to count, but there are people who absolutely have no care for ever even thinking about vehicle maintenance.

As to the last point, we're not talking about true M cars or AMGs. The M-sport M340i and C43 (not a real AMG, haters gon' hate) is in a similar price range as the projected price of the Type S. Everybody keeps saying the Type S is going to be 45k, but seeing as the current TLX SH-AWD A-Spec is that price currently, I don't see that happening. Probably closer to the 50k mark than people want to admit. I'd say starting at around $48-49k. I was originally saying it wasn't going to be under $50k when the rumors were swirling about 400HP, but with the lackluster performance numbers, they'd be insane to be asking for more than the current S4, which the performance of the Type S will likely be most in line with. But, let's be honest, for most people, if you ask them to pay a few grand more for an Audi/BMW/Mercedes with similar or better performance compared to an Acura, 9/10 people are going German.

russianDude

Acura type S will not be competing with BMW M engines. It might be a cheaper alternative, but its not in the same class.

Waetherman

I’m with you. That’s what I think Acura needs to really change their image from “least luxurious of luxury cars“ to “best performing luxury car.” Look at what the Kia Stinger did for that brand. Acura could use some of that. And 400 horses at a reasonable price would have done that. Instead it’s “oh I guess that’s good” at 355. The other engineering and SH-AWD will, I’m sure, make the new TLX Type S a great car, but hp is what everyone looks at first.

fiatlux

Why do people keep bringing up this straw man? Nobody says it will be competing with the M cars so it’s completely irrelevant to use that as an excuse or explanation. But it will be competing with the M-Sport cars like the M340i because they will be priced and equipped similarly.

Christ almighty it’s almost like people don’t know what the competition offers...

russianDude

I there is ever type S RDX with 3.0t, the similar choice is x3 BMW with M engine. This bmw car will be more expensive. Acura never will try to compete with BMW Cars that have M kind of engine, I dont think they even want to do that. What excuse? In my opinion acura has no plan to compete with BMW M packages in general, they know their place and probably are comfortable where they are.

fiatlux

What M engined X3 are you talking about? The X3 M40i? Certainly not the X3M, which is the real M car, but nobody expects the Type-S to compete with the real Ms. The X3 M40i is not a real M car, it does not have an M engine, and it certainly is something that the Type-S should compete against given the price ($55K) and position in the lineup (one step above the base).

russianDude

yes, x3 m40i would be more or less equivalent to hypothetical RDX type S with 3.0 engine. X3 m40i starts at 55k, for a base model! Add couple nice options, and its 60k+. Acura will have to sell it for much less than that to get bmw people to switxh. Should Acura compete against it? Absolutely, but will they? My prediction they will not. They like to be in whatever comfortable place they are.

leomio85

I wouldn't say comfortable.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-market-share/

Comfortable would describe Lexus, who's rested on their laurels for the past decade+ putting out reskinned versions of their cars to the pandering mouth breathers who buy them. I think the new TLX will do well, but the Type S is nothing to be celebrated and is more of a demerit towards Honda/Acura engineering.

russianDude

I agree that Type S was a smart move for them, they did "OK", but they did not do anything amazing to for people to say "WOW, look at the car Acura Came up, it has 400+ HP and etc".

leomio85

Yep. Which is why the base, A-Spec and Advance models will do well. Anyone wanting more performance will almost undoubtedly go for the M340i or C43, unless Acura is somehow able to pull the $45k price out of a hat. Again, I don't see it happening with the current SH-AWD A-Spec starting for $45k. I'm already hearing the current M340i, C43 and S4s are all able to be had for well under sticker. The Type S won't be able to say this thanks to typical dealership sales tactics on new vehicles. Getting a few grand off the 3G RDX when I bought it in summer of 2019 was like pulling teeth and they were annoyed I was asking anything off sticker. Now I'm hearing they're going OTD for well under sticker, likely due to a slump in sales. The TLX will go the same way, and will be exacerbated on the Type S variant.

If someone is able to release a tune to reliably make somewhere in the realm of 400wHP, I'm game on the Type S (unlikely). If not, BMW or M-B it is.

Jerzy

Step backwards? I'm not so sure. I had V6 in Accord and I prefer 2.0T in RDX. It has about 6% less power but 5% more torque. In addition 2.0T has peak torque at 1600 rpm in comparison to 4700 rpm in MDX. It also means that around 2000 rpm 2.0T has about 40% higher torque. In driving it just goes uphill without shifting down. V6 turbo would be nice to achieve similar torque curve and more power, but fuel economy would suffer (engine is always most efficient near max load/power).
Engine in RDX is wonderful, IMHO. Everything I disliked about 4 cylinder is gone. Even longevity might be the same as V6, since engine operates most of the time below 2000 rpm. I believe they took 306HP Civic type R turbo-intercooler engine and fitted it with different turbo. New turbo from Mitsubishi reduces maximum power from 306HP to 272HP, but has faster reaction (lower inertia).

NBPDC505

400WHP for the new turbo 6 is setting the bar very low if their current lineup is any indication. The Civic Type-R 2.0T can pick up 60whp from a tune alone, what would keep the 50% larger engine from having the same type of delta in power increase? We already know the transmission is upgraded, and even if the same injectors are used the fuel system should have head-room for somewhere near 600hp assuming the pumps are up to it.

leomio85

The turbo and the drivetrain. If their turbo is geared more towards quick spool rather than overall power, that may be the limiting factor. The CTR turbo is larger than the turbo in the Accord and RDX, likely due to Honda realizing the people who buy the CTR are looking for more power rather than quick response for around town driving. Will they do the same for the Type S? The same motor is going in the MDX too, so that's a sign that they're catering more towards the Average Joe and Jane who feels the instant torque and believes its faster, as opposed to running out of breath when you wind the motor out at the high end.

This doesn't mean anything if the drivetrain can't cope with the higher horsepower/torque levels that a tune might bring. They say the transmission was beefed up, but how? They have mentioned the new safety features, but nothing about how they improved the transmission aside from "more aggressive tuning." Is that what they mean, or were the internals actually strengthened? There's obviously going to be a little wiggle room there, but how much? The one good thing about YouTube these days is you know somebody is going to get one and throw as much power as they can at it to see the limits of it. I know a few guys did it with the Supra. If all's well, I'll revisit the TLX-S ... but my sneaking suspicion is it won't do well, which would explain the less than enthusiastic numbers. You know Honda was easily capable of making more than that, with BMW making 430-440HP with their single turbo 3.0L I6 (though only advertising 382) ...

NBPDC505

Luckily for future buyers, Acura didn't quantify transmission upgrades as "aggressively tuned". Instead, they said the transmission and awd system have both been beefed up to handle the additional power. Skip to 12:00 for a recap of their effort. With the very large headroom in the current iteration of transmission, a little extra power isn't going to grenade what they've made. This car is more of a specialty performance item like the Type-R, which some of the same team members helped develop. With that in mind, the turbo won't be the instant spool commuter turbo like the Accord and RDX (and for reference, the CTR is fully spooled around 2500rpm instead of 1500rpm in the other two), since the vehicle was created with more of the mindset of a mature Type-R sedan. We will all see when the car arrives and is tested, but they aren't in the habit of making cars with no headroom with their turbo power plants. I'm looking forward to what it will bring and the direction they are heading.

leomio85

I was thinking I missed something from that intro video. I remember them saying its "beefed up," but nothing since then except hearing different tuning for the transmission. As you said, time will tell. I hope you're right. If the 355HP is underrated like the CTR is underrated, then eclipsing 400wHP shouldn't be a problem, discounting other preventative factors. But, if its not underrated, doing so on a stock turbo will be close. The current B9 S4 with an APR Stage I 93 tune doesn't quite get there, coming in around 384wHP. Their dynos had the B9 S4 making approx 397HP as opposed to the advertised 349HP too. Fingers crossed that it comes with a conservative tune and/or is underrated and Hondata or KTuner can work some magic ... then I'll apologize and jump on the bandwagon, lol.

4th Acura

I find the stock engine peppy enough for me. During the early 1980s I owned a 280ZX which had a 2.8l, 145HP in-line 6 cylinder with 156 FT-LBS.

4th Acura

1982 280ZX
This is not a picture of my actual car but aside from the wheels is nearly identical.

Wander

Sweet! 5-speed manual? Probably one of the cars you wish you hadn't let slip away.

In the post fuel-embargo era of the early 80's, that was considered a fast car. Being shaped like a bullet really helps at the top end. Being shaped like a toaster does not.

4th Acura

Yes, 5 speed manual. It also came as an automatic. I still occasionally dream about this car.

Rmsanger

Acura better be very strategic on the launch of the next MDX & RDX type S... CUVs are their bread and butter; with Genesis coming out with the GV70 & GV80 over the next 18 months there are shots being fired directly at their market share. The 3.5TT making 400 hp /400 lb tq is a sweat-heart of a powertrain and the Genny interiors are magnificent. I imagine Genesis will have the better engine, tranny, and interior with Acura have the better AWD system and perhaps reliability "reputation" at that point but it will be very close.

DJA123

Completely agree that Genesis will more and more take bites from Acura's lunch. The Koreans are making few mistakes and their reputation seems to be on a steady upward trend. Honda/Acura definitely needs to be more protective of their reputation, as their trend line seems to be falling.

Reputation, good or bad, tends to be slow to turn, but it's not set in stone. Look how far Hyundai has come since their joke status.

No way Genesis won't get a hard look when I look for my next vehicle.

fiatlux

Beyond just the product itself, a key thing they’ll have to execute on is the sales (and post-sales) experience. For them to be taken seriously, they have to make you feel like you bought something special and treat you like a VIP. Lexus does it, the Germans do it, Land Rover does it, and Acura...does not. Genesis has a shot if they start fresh, but if they’re banking on the existing Hyundai/Kia dealership network to provide this level of customer service, they’re going to be DOA no matter how good their cars are. If they continue down the path of not having a dedicated dealership network, they have to be absolutely sure that their customers will never set foot in a H/K dealership. I know this sounds elitist, but if I’m paying $50K+ for a luxury car, I expect not to have to rub shoulders with the plebs . I’d expect an airport lounge type of experience, not the DMV waiting room experience.

DJA123

All valid. And if we know these expectations, they do too. Time will tell if they're willing to make the full commitment; I'm certainly not betting against it.

The Genesis vehicles already feel very refined and competitive in the near luxury slot. Each generation is a big jump ahead. For them to not understand how to sell them would be a surprise. But, I am surprised Honda is still confused about the Acura owner experience.

Hyundai has been really good at reading the room and delivering low / mid-level products people want to own. It won't happen overnight, but I'll be shocked if they aren't in a game plan to compete very successfully in the higher-end segments as well.

In a more general discussion, the businesses that didn't respect the hard work and commitment of Korean competitors would soon regret it. Look at where they are in industries like transportation, manufacturing, electronics, chemicals, etc. It would be unusual if Hyundai was content being where they are in the auto game.

JB in AZ

This is my first Acura, so I didn't really know what to expect at the Acura dealer service dept. There is only one here, and so far I have been underwhelmed. The local Toyota dealership offers a much better and upscale waiting area with fresh sweet rolls, donuts, fresh baked cookies, other snacks, sodas, as well as other (non alcoholic) beverages. Possibly because they sell more vehicles, they can afford the extra niceties? I have had three service advisors in three trips to the Acura dealer, not because it was the luck of the draw, but because the others are no longer employed there. We previously owned a Ford Escape, and our Ford dealer service department experience was always the best we have ever experienced (including the Acura dealer now) I seriously considered a Lincoln or a Ford Edge because of the dealership experience. I have no regrets deciding on the RDX, as it is a far better choice than either Lincoln MKX or Ford Edge would have been. Bottom line is the dealership experience does make a difference.

If Genesis doesn't open their own dealerships, I doubt that they will do well.

One reason I bought the Acura is for what I hoped would be an upscale dealer experience. It wasn't. I never even got an after the sale follow email or phone call from the sales person or sales manager. This dealership doesn't even come up to the level I experienced at Ford. If I don't have a better experience at the local Acura dealer here going forward, I won't be buying another Acura. Not because of the car, only because of the dealer experience. I believe that the Koreans can figure this out, and will likely develop a separate dealership line for their Genesis line, but it will cost a huge amount of money, and they only have the low sales numbers so far.

leomio85

According to the YouTuber savagegeese, Hyundai knows about the issues with Genesis and their dealer networks. This is also probably one of the reasons that the Kia Stinger didn't do well. Aside from having the Kia badge, their dealers may as well be attached to a Wal-Mart. I've heard horror stories about people trying to purchase Stingers when they first came out, with salesmen being downright offensive if you didn't want to pay mark-up on the vehicles because they thought they could swindle people into making more commission off a well performing vehicle. Now? They can't pay people to take Stingers off their lots. Hyundai/Kia used to be a brand you only bought because it was a deal compared to the more mainstream vehicles. They've gotten a lot better, but the attitudes of their dealerships is lagging behind. I know when I was cross shopping the new Santa Fe with the RDX, it was a very brief time spent in the dealer before we left without any notion of ever returning again.

fiatlux

Ah yes the Stinger. Where do I even begin? I went in to go check one out (at the time I had a hard-on for sportbacks like the S5 and 4-series GC). I had just come back from a test drive at the Audi dealership where they didn’t have an S5, but let me take out an RS5 instead. The Hyundai dealership wouldn’t even let me sit in the Stinger, let alone take it for a test drive. They were treating it like I was some guy in jorts kicking the tires of a Lamborghini.

Now to be fair, I showed up to the Kia dealership in my wife’s TLX wearing a button down shirt. Maybe if I had been driving a car more befitting of the Kia badge, like a Bentley or Rolls Royce, and wearing a 3-piece suit I would have been allowed to sit in it.

qqzj

Why should a family oriented FWD mostly cuv need turbo 6? 300 hp is enough. It will be a pretty dumb move for Acura.

fiatlux

Might I suggest the https://www.piloteers.org/ forums

Waetherman

Dealerships can be weird about test drives. I went to one in Brooklyn that was closer to me, kicked the tires and cross shopped some other vehicles (they were also Honda and Toyota dealers). Came back when I’d 96% decided on the RDX to test drive with the family and they acted like it was a real inconvenience for them. So I went to a different dealer to make the deal, and the salesman literally said to me that he wouldn’t sell me the car unless I took a test drive - manager wouldn’t like it if I didn’t. Those are the guys are the guys who got my business.