mpeteritas

Hi all,

I just upgraded from a 2004 TSX to a 2010 TSX with tech package. I am kind of an audiophile (recording engineer and mastering engineer) and so I am already trying to decide the least intrusive modifications I can make to improve the sound of the stereo. In my 2004 TSX, i kept the stock head unit but replaced the Amp with an RF power series amp and I replaced the components with DLS UP6 components, which sound fantastic, but are power hungry. Anyway, back to the 2010 TSX...

The ELS system is a big step up from the stock 2004 system, but it still has some noticable flaws:

1. The Tweeters are too loud compared to the rest of the system. defeating the treble doesn't help because it starts to kill the mids in the other speakers. So I am wondering if anyone has been attenuating the Tweeters (via in-line resistors), or just replacing the tweeters? Seems like an easy upgrade. I may try the DLS UP1C tweeters I already have.

2. Only Bass and Treble? Really? I fully expected to see a customizable EQ in this system. Maybe I just haven't found it yet. Can anyone advise? This article seems to suggest that you can customize each source, which would be nice...

http://www.panasonic.com/ELS_Surround/tsx.asp

3. It sounds underpowered. It saturates and compresses at moderate volumes. I know that the DSP is built into the amp, so I am wondering if anyone upgraded the amp in-line?

I don't intend to gut this system, but I do want to start to explore the improvements that can be made... Advice please!

mark

mpeteritas

so no one else has ANY comments about this system? The tweeters are killing me. I have decided to start by replacing the tweeters with DLS UP1C tweeters and will probably tone them down with a 5W 50ohm resistor. If that helps enough, i may stop there.

But I did do some research and i see that preamp outs for each speaker go the whole way to the trunk where the amp is located. and... speaker outputs are of course also right there. Seems like Acura did the work for us, short of running the power. If female wiring harnesses can be found somewhere, this would very simple to install an amp inline, without modifying the factory wiring at all. thoughts?

mark

White92

I was hoping others would respond too. I know username mercman has gone through the system. He probably has more answers for you than most.

mercman

I have posted a bunch of times on the ELS system but basically here is what you have, and oh yes, the highs will make your ears bleed!
All the action takes place in the ELS amp, the fixed level analog signal from the HU is digitalized and passes through a DSP where it is heavily processed. You are correct, each input or source can be individually customized, and unfortunately it’s not you that gets to do the adjustments. Each source is set up according to Elliot and you can’t change it. The really sad part is it is eq’d to make the cheap factory speakers sound good, and it does a really good job of it, but if you upgrade the speakers it sounds like a cheap boom box with that shinny tweeter thing.
The output section of the amp is overdriven and distorts heavily at higher volumes but through the miracle of DSP it is hard to notice until the speaker blows but that’s the subject of another post.
I have been thinking about adding pads to my aftermarket tweeters but haven’t had the time. I also have a replacement preamp for the ELS system but I’m still tweaking it and need to decide what to do about the center speaker and DVD-A. This is important because of the additional amp required just to drive the 3 inch center for a handful of DVD-A tracks. I’m thinking ditch it and go with real stereo. I had expected to install the prototype a few weeks ago but it got real cold so it has to wait.
I have a post that explains how to remove the factory speakers as well.

Jeff

mpeteritas

Hey Jeff,

Thanks for the great information. And I share a lot of your thoughts on this. Have you tried DLS components? If not, grab yourself a set of the DLS UP6 components and see what you think. They worked perfectly in my old TSX and I heard about them through a guy that does high end installs out in CA.

I saw your instructions for speaker install. Very nice write up. I have the tech docs and will be tackling this when the weather gets warmer. I am in central PA, and its freaking cold right now (and I don't have a garage).

A couple questions, that I think you may have answers to:

1. if you disconnect the ELS amp, does the rest of the system still function? meaning that the head unit continues to be happy and the pre amp level signals continue to be fed to the trunk wiring harness? If so, this is ideal. If not, cutting wires may be required, leaving the ELS amp connected to keep the head unit happy.

2. Do you have any recommendations for running power to the trunk. Finding the right hole through the firewall and path through the car is always a pain...

3. Have you had any luck identifying a suitable wire on the ELS amp harness to use for signaling remote turn on of an external amp?

I don't think i'll dig into this for a while (aside from the tweeters), but I am looking forward to a fairly painless install this spring. With a 6 or 8 channel amp in place, it should be easy to set the balance of each set of speakers to maintain the surround sound for DVD-A. (6 ch would assume running the rear door and rear deck speakers in series as a single pair, 8 would keep them separate).

mark

feuss2

iTrader: (1)

This is a perfect application for the JBL MS8.

mercman

If you disco the ELS amp you will have nothing. The HU only outputs a fixed level stereo or 5.1 DVD-A audio signal and control data to the ELS amp. The amp then uses the control data to adjust the sound and surround modes. In other words, when you adjust the volume, bass or other setting on the HU the HU output stays the same and the adjustment is actually done in the amp. This also includes the mute function for the BT and nav voice and the switching for the nav voice input. So if you unplug the ELS amp you will lose everything.
There is a remote wire available on the ELS amp input connector.
I have looked at running a power wire to the trunk and right now I haven’t decided how to do it. I do know that I will not go through the grommet on the passenger side since that is where the wires for the electronic power steering run and I don’t want to risk mixing the two. My TSX steers bad enough as it is.
Adding an MS-8 would really make things worse, for one thing, the ELS amp changes the EQ based on factors such as what input is selected, also I think another A/D D/A process is just what the ELS system needs…not!

As soon as it warms up around here I will finish the tweaks on my replacement pre amp and get my amps installed.

Jeff

mpeteritas

Jeff,

I was afraid you would say that about the mute and other functions happening in the amp. that's a shame. If they were going to do that, they should have put in an amp that is appropriately powered for the system and that doesn't do an extra stage of A/D just to use a cheap DSP eq (vs analog eq)!

I really have no desire to run off of speaker level outputs to feed a second amp, especially speaker level outputs that have extra A/D - messy EQ - D/A. So this could be trickier than I was expecting. How did you arrive at these conclusions regarding the mute/BT/voice integration. Kind of wishing I hadn't gone with the tech package now :/

Well, if want help with that pre amp, let me know. I am a computer programmer by trade and have a lot of audio knowledge. Feel free to send me a private message and we can discuss.

btw, I have the DLS tweeters almost ready to install. I am just waiting for the adhesive to set. Will post some pics when its done (I went with the same approach as you and ordered new tweeter covers to leave the originals intact. Did you find a place to order wiring harnesses for the tweeters? I can solder the feeds in-line, leaving the original harness, but certainly it would be easier with a real Honda wiring harness, matching the original tweeters pinout.

mark

mpeteritas

Just installed the DLS UP1C tweeters last night. Everything else is still the factory ELS system. I have to say this is a HUGE improvement. I used a cap to cross them over around 4kHz and two 10ohm/10w resistors to tame the output volume. So the + signal to each speaker looks like: +------ 10ohm ------- 10ohm ------ cap ----- + tweeter. Certainly a single 18-22ohm resistor would do the job too, but I didn't have anything on hand.

I would encourage others to give this a try. You might be surprised how much the tweeters are killing this system.

mark

mercman

Hi Mark,
I will be getting back to the ELS preamp work in a few days but I have been thinking about what the final solution will do. Right now I have tested a full 6 channel setup but since you only really need 6 channels for DVD-A, I am rethinking going with a true Stereo setup and ditching the rear and center surrounds. Doing so will make the hardware portion less complicated (and less expensive to build) and would only require a small change in the program. It would also eliminate the front center channel speaker and the extra amp wasted on it. I would mix the rear and centers into the mains when a DVD-A was playing. The output of the preamp would look like a standard aftermarket deck with front/rear and sub outputs, of course the rears would be copies of the fronts and you can fade them from the HU just like a stereo deck. The more I think about it the more I think I should go that way. Opinions welcome.
Thanks for the programing help offer, I hadn’t programed a computer since the TRS80 and the IBM-PC. I had to learn VB 2008 for the HU simulator I wrote for the laptop and C for the MCU that controls the preamp. That took me longer to do that then the HW work.
Jeff

White92

That sounds good. I would also consider offering the 6 channel setup for people who want to stay exactly like factory. Any efforts on the non tech setup?

mercman

Going to bring the 09 back to the dealer to fix the xm nav issue, let’s hope I get a TSX this time so I can measure the noise cancelation signal. That’s the only remaining item on the non tech solution.

Jeff

jebus_TSX

Same here with the EQ on the tech package I was expecting with this type of vehicle build for sound quality to have a parametric EQ. It kinda bug me that it doesnt even gives the option of adjusting your mids only bass and treble.