UR Pulleys on 2011 TSX killing the car
08-05-2011, 02:14 PM
#121
I've never understood those who abuse things, whether it's a mechanical item, animals, people.
What is the fun in destroying something as nice as one of these cars? I'm not just trying to bust on you personally, Ronald, I've known many people that act in the same manner.
For some, at least, I think it's a manner of elevating one's self above others by *proving* that they have so much money they can flagrantly destroy something that others covet.
I like to have fun, I like to drive fast cars, preferably around corners, but I don't abuse them.
What is the fun in destroying something as nice as one of these cars? I'm not just trying to bust on you personally, Ronald, I've known many people that act in the same manner.
For some, at least, I think it's a manner of elevating one's self above others by *proving* that they have so much money they can flagrantly destroy something that others covet.
I like to have fun, I like to drive fast cars, preferably around corners, but I don't abuse them.
I take care of my car for the most part k-series trans are really weak period. It was not abused at all.
They saw the pulleys and they started to question my issues with the car and after finding out what was wrong with the trans they voided the warranty. Because they can and they have proof.
08-08-2011, 01:02 PM
#122
Ronald, If you are rebuilding the tranny, could you take some measurements for me? I need to the dimenstions for the Final drive and ring gear and diff for the 09, so that we can compare them to that of an 08. If they match, we have many lsd options available, we just need to grab an 08 final drive, or an mfactory final drive and then we will have the option of LSD in the CU2 chassis.
Just got back from the stealership and I had a talk with the mechanic he said that it's not a good idea trying to put the differencial from
A 1st gen tsx. They are both very diffrent internally 2nd gen tsx is an upgrade comepare to the 1st gen. The 2nd gen tsx differencial is completely closed like the nsx and cannot be opened.
08-08-2011, 08:34 PM
#123
Burning Brakes
Could you ask him what he suggests for an LSD? I was wanting to obtain an mfactory LSD, with the final drive of an 08, or an mfactory final drive of 5.08:1. I just need a 10 bolt final drive to use the mfactory unit, OR, see if we can get the JDM/EDM LSD option to put in our transmissions.
Suggestions??
The 2012 civic si has the same case as us, *looking at drawings on honda/acura site* but they don't have the 14 bolt diff, they have a 10 bolt diff like legacy K series tranny's. We have the 14 bolt. I just want to use a 10 bolt ring gear and LSD. I don't want a first gen tsx diff at all, I just want to know if mfactory parts will work? I think they will, but thought I'd ask someone that has access to measure the pieces to ensure they'll fit, as I do not.
Also, what does "closed diff mean"?
Suggestions??
The 2012 civic si has the same case as us, *looking at drawings on honda/acura site* but they don't have the 14 bolt diff, they have a 10 bolt diff like legacy K series tranny's. We have the 14 bolt. I just want to use a 10 bolt ring gear and LSD. I don't want a first gen tsx diff at all, I just want to know if mfactory parts will work? I think they will, but thought I'd ask someone that has access to measure the pieces to ensure they'll fit, as I do not.
Also, what does "closed diff mean"?
Last edited by optimusaccord; 08-08-2011 at 08:37 PM.
08-09-2011, 07:24 AM
#124
WTH happened to my garage
Two different terms possible.
(1) Open v Closed differential is how some people describe a posi as opposed to a non-posi or LSD (Limited Slip Differential) v non LSD
(2) An open (accessible to dismantle) and subsequently re-stack or add additional clutch packs or stiffer springs in a clutch style LSD for increased slip limiting.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm
Having utilized the Automatic Torque Biasing helical LSD in a handfull of H/A applications, the non-"Locking" Quaife is a damn near bulletproof sweetheart.
http://www.quaife.co.uk/differentials
(1) Open v Closed differential is how some people describe a posi as opposed to a non-posi or LSD (Limited Slip Differential) v non LSD
(2) An open (accessible to dismantle) and subsequently re-stack or add additional clutch packs or stiffer springs in a clutch style LSD for increased slip limiting.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm
Having utilized the Automatic Torque Biasing helical LSD in a handfull of H/A applications, the non-"Locking" Quaife is a damn near bulletproof sweetheart.
http://www.quaife.co.uk/differentials
08-09-2011, 08:22 AM
#125
Burning Brakes
I just want a helical style LSD unit for going around corners.
08-09-2011, 08:44 AM
#126
WTH happened to my garage
09-16-2011, 06:16 PM
#127
Not only am i happy that 2200 people have seen this, but im happy i got my stock pullies re-installed today. These UR pulleys are horrible! The customer service i recieved from UR was horrible, And the company i bought them from Throwdown Performance couldnt do a single thing for me. They made so many excuses but fact of the matter is when i took there product off my car it magically was fixed! DO NOT BUY THESE PULLIES! My car feels so much better without them and they are not worth not only the price but the hassle. i experienced the same voltage issues and numerous dead batteries. AGAIN DO NOT BUY THESE PULLIES!!!!!
09-16-2011, 06:30 PM
#128
Not only am i happy that 2200 people have seen this, but im happy i got my stock pullies re-installed today. These UR pulleys are horrible! The customer service i recieved from UR was horrible, And the company i bought them from Throwdown Performance couldnt do a single thing for me. They made so many excuses but fact of the matter is when i took there product off my car it magically was fixed! DO NOT BUY THESE PULLIES! My car feels so much better without them and they are not worth not only the price but the hassle. i experienced the same voltage issues and numerous dead batteries. AGAIN DO NOT BUY THESE PULLIES!!!!!
https://acurazine.com/forums/car-parts-sale-361/2g-tsx-ur-pulleys-gates-belt-almost-brand-new-832793/
09-17-2011, 07:36 AM
#131
WTH happened to my garage
Fucryingoutloud, I've said this a dozen f'ing times in this thread but not one person has read it or understands my point:
UR makes a stock diameter lightweight crank pulley or you could use just the UR crank pulley from the two piece set and leave the stock alternator pulley alone. You'd still have some benefit either way with either (1) zero ratio effect on the alternator or (2) minimal effect of reduction in alternator speed.
Funny how you blast them in the forum, yet no mention of the HORRIBLE parts you're trying to peddle to some poor unsuspecting SOB in your FS ad.
Last edited by HeavyDuty; 09-17-2011 at 07:48 AM.
09-17-2011, 08:58 AM
#132
Developer & Car Fan
Thread Starter
I had the same exact model of Pulleys removed from my (at the time 2 month old) 2011 TSX last month and have since had ZERO battery and electrical issues. Maybe it was a fluke or maybe the product is defective but my one final attempt of contacting UR was of course met with "its you, not us". Whatever, i've learned never to buy or recommend that company. Others may love them but having worked in Cust Serv for years before they truly sucked at it.
Lesson learned when it comes to modding a Daily Drive, gotta mess up to learn for the future and I did just that. Hopefully I can save some headaches for others in the future.
Lastly, i've just thrown the pulley set in the closet and if a local friend or someone wants them for dirt cheap i'll one day pass them along, but will not be selling them online as its possible they are defective.
Thanks all to the AZ members for the help, busting my balls and providing insight into the saga of the UR pulleys.
Thanks,
Matt
Lesson learned when it comes to modding a Daily Drive, gotta mess up to learn for the future and I did just that. Hopefully I can save some headaches for others in the future.
Lastly, i've just thrown the pulley set in the closet and if a local friend or someone wants them for dirt cheap i'll one day pass them along, but will not be selling them online as its possible they are defective.
Thanks all to the AZ members for the help, busting my balls and providing insight into the saga of the UR pulleys.
Thanks,
Matt
Last edited by mkeefe; 09-17-2011 at 08:59 AM. Reason: More info...
09-17-2011, 11:00 AM
#133
Heavyduty....I put them up there to see if someone else wanted to give them a shot. i clearly had bad luck doesnt mean everyone will. And also may i ask heavyduty do you have UR pulleys on your car??? the problem with the voltage is the smaller crank pulley requires you to reroute the serpentine pattern thus far slowing down the alternator resulting in lower voltage. Car ran fine with no accessories on...then when i would turn on the headlights and fogs i would get a check charging system warning, Heat on same thing etc etc.....basically UR didnt research there product enough for our car before selling it. Might be some of the reason they just came out with a stock diameter crank pulley, yet they wont take any blame for there fault . It is what it is lesson learned and i will never ever do business with them again or recommend them to anyone anywhere for any application.
09-17-2011, 03:01 PM
#134
Heavyduty....I put them up there to see if someone else wanted to give them a shot. i clearly had bad luck doesnt mean everyone will. And also may i ask heavyduty do you have UR pulleys on your car??? the problem with the voltage is the smaller crank pulley requires you to reroute the serpentine pattern thus far slowing down the alternator resulting in lower voltage. Car ran fine with no accessories on...then when i would turn on the headlights and fogs i would get a check charging system warning, Heat on same thing etc etc.....basically UR didnt research there product enough for our car before selling it. Might be some of the reason they just came out with a stock diameter crank pulley, yet they wont take any blame for there fault . It is what it is lesson learned and i will never ever do business with them again or recommend them to anyone anywhere for any application.
HD might not have the pulleys but I PROBABLY bet he knows what hes talking about
09-17-2011, 04:19 PM
#135
Everyone on this forum thinks they know what there talking about...its just the general nature of most forums. Either way i filed a complaint with the better business bureau so i guess we will see what comes of it
09-18-2011, 01:37 AM
#136
4th Gear
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UR makes a stock diameter pulley which gives you 80-90% of the same benefit. Underdriving literally means you're sending less electricity. If your radio is on, AC, Nav, etc, you're pulling more power from the battery than you're charging. Get the UR stock diameter, the last HP or two isn't worth it.
09-18-2011, 11:19 AM
#137
I wish I was told I wouldn't be able to use
My car normally when I bought these damn pullies now I'm out hundreds of dollars. Just funny how they came out with the stock diameter pulley after the underdrive set
My car normally when I bought these damn pullies now I'm out hundreds of dollars. Just funny how they came out with the stock diameter pulley after the underdrive set
09-18-2011, 01:03 PM
#138
SeeYou2Crew #2
lol should've research first.
good luck selling them out though, i was toying with the idea of buying one out of the 2 piece like HD said, but i got other mods to take care of first haha
good luck selling them out though, i was toying with the idea of buying one out of the 2 piece like HD said, but i got other mods to take care of first haha
09-18-2011, 01:10 PM
#139
No...I was told that the product wouldn't affect my everyday useability of the car. I did extensive research and there was no mention of this negative effect on our platform. If your interested I will give you a killer deal on the pullies and belt 
09-18-2011, 01:13 PM
#140
Dont get me wrong I knew of the voltage drop. But wasn't aware I would not be able to use any of my cars features. Some which are necessary to even drive at night I.E. Headlights, and some which are comfort features like heat/ac. Basically this product wasn't researched enough by UR to realize the power draw on our cars is to much to be running this setup, thus far leaving me to find out for myself
Last edited by ecko508; 09-18-2011 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Spelling
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ed_423 (09-19-2011)
09-18-2011, 07:05 PM
#142
Thats what i did went out and spent over 100 dollars on a bigger battery and it was completely drained after 2 days of driving around. Clearly the battery is not the issue, it was lack of research and testing done by UR on the TSX platform which they wont take blame for
09-19-2011, 11:45 AM
#145
Secondly, Unorthodox has had information regarding the underdriving of the accessories on their website for years.
What is underdriving/underdrive?
Underdriving/underdrive is slowing the speed of the accessories, or the driven component, from their original factory speed. Underdriving can be done in two ways. First is by increasing the diameter of the accessory pulley/s. The problem with this method is it increases the size of the accessory pulley/s which increases their weight. Weight reduction is the most important key to increasing engine performance and response. This method also eliminates the ability to underdrive the a/c that robs alot of horsepower. The second, which we use, is reducing the diameter of the crank pulley. This allows us to achieve the best ratio of underdriving, and most importantly maximizes the reduction of weight on the crankshaft. This reduction in weight reduces the moment of inertia allowing your engine to respond faster to throttle inputs and perform better at all RPM's. This method also allows underdriving of the a/c we can maximize the performance of our kits by not leaving any accessories to rob precious horsepower from your engine.
http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/faq.aspx#section2
Can I use the underdrive pulleys if I have a high wattage stereo system?
Our underdrive pulleys are designed to allow for the addition of aftermarket stereo systems up to approximately 600 watts RMS. If the stereo system in question is above that wattage amount then the owner can purchase our stock diameter crank pulley will maintain the voltage output just like the stock crank pulley.
Capacitors are a smart addition to any audion system as they store the power the amplifiers need for peak draw. Our stock diameter series used with capacitors allow the vehicle owner to achieve the cleanest and most powerful sound with no loss in voltage output. Another good option would be to install a second battery or batteries just for the stereo.
09-19-2011, 12:15 PM
#146
WTH happened to my garage
I stand corrected (partially). =) (LONG)
I've had them on literally dozens of applications, but not on this car.
It's called an underdrive pulley set...a reduction in the speed the accessory turns, reducing output. The rerouting of the belt is not what slows down the alternator, it's a combination of a smaller crank pulley and, in this case, a larger alternator pulley. I don't mean to talk down to anyone here, FWIW.
If you think about it like a 10 speed bicycle, large crank (where you pedal) small drive (the back wheel) equals high speed with a high pedal effort.
Smaller crank (where you pedal) larger drive (the back wheel) easier to pedal, but slower speed.
OK, this is the deal;
On numerous applications (Nissan, Mitsu, Toyota, Honda) there are 2 piece kits (crank, alternator or water pump) and three piece kits (crank, alt, wp). On almost any app that I can remember, you could play with the ratios and figure out your belt length by trial and error. Use the crank pulley but leave the alternator alone, or use the crank and leave the water pump alone, depending on the app.
This is not one of those applications. I apologize to the board for my mis-spoken rant above. On this app, you have to use both crank & alt together, or go with the street (stock diameter) lightweight pulley. The only retailer that can offer the stock diameter lightweight pulley is XLR8, or someone who buys wholesale from XLR8.
Artema posted the same comment on this thread, just use the stock diameter, for the weight is the big benefit.
From UR's site below
STOCK DIAMETER
Some customers asked for pulley sets without underdrive. They want to keep the stock speed for their alternators, superchargers and water pumps. UR developed this version because the performance benefits of weight reduction outweigh the need for underdrive, especially for audio enthusiasts as some audio competitions require voltage to remain at a specific level. Stock diameter is also important for factory or aftermarket superchargers. Superchargers need the stock diameter to keep the same boost you had with the factory crank pulley. The big weight loss gets you a lot more power to the wheels.
Brief, but related sidetrack...
Back in, say, the 80's, if you had a 60 amp alternator, that was considered 'high output'. These days, 130 amp alternators are very common. Just like the high performance light bulbs (Silverstars, PIAA, etc) BUT along with the higher output comes a reduction in service life. So, a 5 year old alternator might equal a 10 year old one from an older application because it burns so hot. That combined with even a modest reduction in speed can cause problems fast.
I do get your point, McKeefe & Ecko. You feel that the product is defective and you should be able to bolt it on with no symptoms that you experienced. Having dealt with this stuff in the past for a big part of my life, every application is a little different from the next. On a new, totally stock car, non-tech, for instance, it should be fine. Age & other mods (stereo stuff) affect the app as a whole. The internet community is very small relative to owners overall, but the forum can make magnanimous problems out of a couple of isolated instances. There are a lot of cars running these that have been OK.
If you think about it like a 10 speed bicycle, large crank (where you pedal) small drive (the back wheel) equals high speed with a high pedal effort.
Smaller crank (where you pedal) larger drive (the back wheel) easier to pedal, but slower speed.
OK, this is the deal;
On numerous applications (Nissan, Mitsu, Toyota, Honda) there are 2 piece kits (crank, alternator or water pump) and three piece kits (crank, alt, wp). On almost any app that I can remember, you could play with the ratios and figure out your belt length by trial and error. Use the crank pulley but leave the alternator alone, or use the crank and leave the water pump alone, depending on the app.
This is not one of those applications. I apologize to the board for my mis-spoken rant above. On this app, you have to use both crank & alt together, or go with the street (stock diameter) lightweight pulley. The only retailer that can offer the stock diameter lightweight pulley is XLR8, or someone who buys wholesale from XLR8.
Artema posted the same comment on this thread, just use the stock diameter, for the weight is the big benefit.
From UR's site below
STOCK DIAMETER
Some customers asked for pulley sets without underdrive. They want to keep the stock speed for their alternators, superchargers and water pumps. UR developed this version because the performance benefits of weight reduction outweigh the need for underdrive, especially for audio enthusiasts as some audio competitions require voltage to remain at a specific level. Stock diameter is also important for factory or aftermarket superchargers. Superchargers need the stock diameter to keep the same boost you had with the factory crank pulley. The big weight loss gets you a lot more power to the wheels.
Brief, but related sidetrack...
Back in, say, the 80's, if you had a 60 amp alternator, that was considered 'high output'. These days, 130 amp alternators are very common. Just like the high performance light bulbs (Silverstars, PIAA, etc) BUT along with the higher output comes a reduction in service life. So, a 5 year old alternator might equal a 10 year old one from an older application because it burns so hot. That combined with even a modest reduction in speed can cause problems fast.
I do get your point, McKeefe & Ecko. You feel that the product is defective and you should be able to bolt it on with no symptoms that you experienced. Having dealt with this stuff in the past for a big part of my life, every application is a little different from the next. On a new, totally stock car, non-tech, for instance, it should be fine. Age & other mods (stereo stuff) affect the app as a whole. The internet community is very small relative to owners overall, but the forum can make magnanimous problems out of a couple of isolated instances. There are a lot of cars running these that have been OK.
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ed_423 (09-19-2011)
09-19-2011, 01:16 PM
#147
Cruisin'
LONG:
* This response is important to make it clear that proper protocol was not followed in the timelyness of initial contact nor with diagnosis leaving us no room to help rectify his situation. Our subsequent request to have the diagnosis steps followed were ignored.
Mr. Keefe's first e-mail to UR:
Hello, After purchasing a set of UR pulleys for my 2011 TSX back in April I have been experiencing dead batteries and warnings about "Charging System Error" from the onboard computer. After having the battery tested, replaced and alternator checked we (Acura and myself) came to the conclusion that the routing of the belt/lightweight pulleys was causing the alternator to be under-powered. Yesterday (July 26th) I had the Acura dealership remove the aftermarket pulleys and install the oem parts. Soon after my alternator tested properly, the car wouldn't hesitate to start and the car was not under-powered. Based on this series of events I am out about $700 in money from purchase, install, gas for loaner cars and the final switchover to the OEM parts. While I am certain I can't recoop all of that money at this point i'd like Unorthodox Racing to make good on the situation. I am not sure if I got a bad pulley or it wasn't tested on a 2011 but I have a work order and 2 mechanics, plus Acura tech team saying the issue was the Unorthodox Racing underdrive pulleys that I purchased from Throwdown Performance. Please let me know how we can proceed.
Thanks for your time.
Matthew Keefe
UR's first response to Mr. Keefe:
Are you completely stock electrically? What other mods have been done? Are you running the right belt? Was the alternator bench tested by the dealer? Testing for voltage doesn’t determine anything other than output is down. So if the alternator happens to be weak since the stock crank pulley over spin the accessories it would mask a weak alternator.
Since we test each kit for output during development, we know that output was maintained. Hundreds of other owners, from Accords to Civic Si’s, Civic Type R’s, RSX’s and other TSX’x have not had any issues so your alternator is the place to look. Rather than the dealer straight out blaming the pulleys, since they are completely inept, the first step of the diagnosis should have been a proper bench test. We would suggest that a thorough diagnosis be done since the both of you are the only owners to exhibit this problem.
We are always willing to acknowledge that our product could be the problem but due to the info provided above and with the design of the product unchanged, output from our original baselines would be no different today on a brand new vehicle. The fact is that after 5+ years of selling these kits the pulleys are not the issue.
Respectfully,
Unorthodox Racing Inc.
Mr. Keefe's second response:
I appreciate the response. The only modifications to the car are not able to cause this issue (LED interior and DRLs) and since the only change has been the removal of the aftermarket pulleys and the car stopped throwing errors its pretty evident that something was wrong with your product. I don't doubt your product is tested and works and all that but was it explicitly tested on a 2011 TSX thats a daily drive, not just a "fun time" car?
This is not an isolated incident, my buddy that has a 2010 TSX is experiencing the exact same problem. We purchased them on the same day and had them installed around the same time, "coincidentally" they started causing issues at the same time. After doing some online research others have had this problem in the past so I am not sure why your team would call this an "isolated incident".
So as I see it you guys are not willing to help a customer out in this case as I am NOT going to run tests/burn money to come to the conclusion myself and Acura techs have reached. I'll be sure to post my experience as I am officially not a happy customer and saddened at the "its not us" cavalier response.
Sincerely,
Matthew
UR's final response:
As was stated in our original response ”was the alternator bench tested?”
It seems that because you spent a few minutes with some dealer techs and more likely just a service writer (glorified salesperson) that you and they are now the expert on pulleys. In addition because your comment about how the modifications, regardless of how minor you think they are, could not possibly have caused a problem. They could not possibly have been installed improperly nor could be in appropriate for your vehicle. Electrical mods on later model vehicles can be very problematic as they have more sensitive electrical system, they can sense inappropriate draw and shut certain functions to protect certain systems if it considers something to be not right.
With regards to your comment about dealer techs being all seeing we have to say most dealer techs are so far from diagnosers they are an embarrassment to the trades great history. They are part changers and have been for many many years now. Problems like these require old school skills, like a bench test, which I’d actually be surprised if they could even do because they would rather sell you another part and bill you the labor than solve the actual problem. The dealer should be willing to put its money where its mouth is with a bench test. But beyond the bench test harness draw test also needs to be done as a next phase if the bench test is inconclusive.
We also need to clarify about your statement that “we are unwilling” when the reality is quite the opposite. If you could meet even the most basic threshold of facts contrary to our 17 years of real world experience, we would have something we could talk about. Since the dealer has failed the most basic functions of diagnosis we can’t even confirm if the alternator is weak or not or if there is an inappropriate draw somewhere in the system.
Beyond these points we also made it clear these kits have been on hundreds (500+) of other K-Series cars with no issues whatsoever. You say others have had problems and that we just call this an “isolated incident” for no reason. We have yet to hear of any other problems beyond you and your friend directly or indirectly. Don’t’ talk about facts without providing proof of those facts in the form or correspondence (e-mail or web-boards). Another fact is that as these K-Series engines age, many are now almost 10 years old, their accessories will wear out especially the alternator which can lose almost 25-30% of its output at idle once it reaches operating temp even within the first year.
Then you try to muddy up the water even further with the mention of your friends problem which is even more problematic as his car is actually a 2009 based on his e-mail to us. We would assumed since he’s your friend you would know the actual model year of his car too. So what was your point in bringing him up? His car is even older and we also have no idea what mods have been done to his car either.
It seems to us that you and your friend may have done the same things which is most likely the cause of these issues.
We also take issue with the fact that you’ve had these parts installed since April but yet you’ve waited almost 4 months to tell us you are having a problem. It’s quite possible had you contacted us right away we could have solved this quickly and without all the unnecessary expense.
Not to say that this shows a problem pattern with your claims but usually when someone hides a problem it’s because they know they’ve done something wrong and since they were not able to rectify it themselves they now lash out at the dealer or vendor. I bet you Throwdown Performance never even heard anything from you either as Mark is always on the ball and would have let us know the minute you called him with a problem.
Unless the proper steps are taken to diagnose the possible causes there is nothing more we can do for you. Our reputation is flawless and speaks for itself. Whenever we have ever had a problem, can’t even count them on one hand, we have made good on rectifying the issue. Any attempt by you to sully this fact with your lack of facts will be vigorously defended against.
Respectfully,
Unorthodox Racing Inc.
Mr Keefe's final response:
Well I didn't know about the steps required to prove the issue. I'm just curious how im having alternator issues and removing the pulleys stops the issue. It's hard to argue with that.
In regards to my friends car it is an 09, I forgot he bought it used in 2010.
I'm not saying the other lite mods I've had done aren't a possible thing to look at but the only removal has been the pulleys, as I stated before.
The part was installed a few months back but only recently started exhibiting issues, partially to not using my car as often while away and other factors. However once I noticed the issue I took action. I did not contact Throwndown since in my experience you contact the source directly, as most times you get pushed that way in the end.
I'm not trying to "destroy" your brand or anything of the sort, i'm simply trying to get this handled and as a small business owner myself I thought itd be beneficial to contact you guys.
Like I said before. I can't waste anymore time/money on this problem,I guess its lesson learned.
Sincerely,
----
Matthew Keefe
* This response is important to make it clear that proper protocol was not followed in the timelyness of initial contact nor with diagnosis leaving us no room to help rectify his situation. Our subsequent request to have the diagnosis steps followed were ignored.
Mr. Keefe's first e-mail to UR:
Hello, After purchasing a set of UR pulleys for my 2011 TSX back in April I have been experiencing dead batteries and warnings about "Charging System Error" from the onboard computer. After having the battery tested, replaced and alternator checked we (Acura and myself) came to the conclusion that the routing of the belt/lightweight pulleys was causing the alternator to be under-powered. Yesterday (July 26th) I had the Acura dealership remove the aftermarket pulleys and install the oem parts. Soon after my alternator tested properly, the car wouldn't hesitate to start and the car was not under-powered. Based on this series of events I am out about $700 in money from purchase, install, gas for loaner cars and the final switchover to the OEM parts. While I am certain I can't recoop all of that money at this point i'd like Unorthodox Racing to make good on the situation. I am not sure if I got a bad pulley or it wasn't tested on a 2011 but I have a work order and 2 mechanics, plus Acura tech team saying the issue was the Unorthodox Racing underdrive pulleys that I purchased from Throwdown Performance. Please let me know how we can proceed.
Thanks for your time.
Matthew Keefe
UR's first response to Mr. Keefe:
Are you completely stock electrically? What other mods have been done? Are you running the right belt? Was the alternator bench tested by the dealer? Testing for voltage doesn’t determine anything other than output is down. So if the alternator happens to be weak since the stock crank pulley over spin the accessories it would mask a weak alternator.
Since we test each kit for output during development, we know that output was maintained. Hundreds of other owners, from Accords to Civic Si’s, Civic Type R’s, RSX’s and other TSX’x have not had any issues so your alternator is the place to look. Rather than the dealer straight out blaming the pulleys, since they are completely inept, the first step of the diagnosis should have been a proper bench test. We would suggest that a thorough diagnosis be done since the both of you are the only owners to exhibit this problem.
We are always willing to acknowledge that our product could be the problem but due to the info provided above and with the design of the product unchanged, output from our original baselines would be no different today on a brand new vehicle. The fact is that after 5+ years of selling these kits the pulleys are not the issue.
Respectfully,
Unorthodox Racing Inc.
Mr. Keefe's second response:
I appreciate the response. The only modifications to the car are not able to cause this issue (LED interior and DRLs) and since the only change has been the removal of the aftermarket pulleys and the car stopped throwing errors its pretty evident that something was wrong with your product. I don't doubt your product is tested and works and all that but was it explicitly tested on a 2011 TSX thats a daily drive, not just a "fun time" car?
This is not an isolated incident, my buddy that has a 2010 TSX is experiencing the exact same problem. We purchased them on the same day and had them installed around the same time, "coincidentally" they started causing issues at the same time. After doing some online research others have had this problem in the past so I am not sure why your team would call this an "isolated incident".
So as I see it you guys are not willing to help a customer out in this case as I am NOT going to run tests/burn money to come to the conclusion myself and Acura techs have reached. I'll be sure to post my experience as I am officially not a happy customer and saddened at the "its not us" cavalier response.
Sincerely,
Matthew
UR's final response:
As was stated in our original response ”was the alternator bench tested?”
It seems that because you spent a few minutes with some dealer techs and more likely just a service writer (glorified salesperson) that you and they are now the expert on pulleys. In addition because your comment about how the modifications, regardless of how minor you think they are, could not possibly have caused a problem. They could not possibly have been installed improperly nor could be in appropriate for your vehicle. Electrical mods on later model vehicles can be very problematic as they have more sensitive electrical system, they can sense inappropriate draw and shut certain functions to protect certain systems if it considers something to be not right.
With regards to your comment about dealer techs being all seeing we have to say most dealer techs are so far from diagnosers they are an embarrassment to the trades great history. They are part changers and have been for many many years now. Problems like these require old school skills, like a bench test, which I’d actually be surprised if they could even do because they would rather sell you another part and bill you the labor than solve the actual problem. The dealer should be willing to put its money where its mouth is with a bench test. But beyond the bench test harness draw test also needs to be done as a next phase if the bench test is inconclusive.
We also need to clarify about your statement that “we are unwilling” when the reality is quite the opposite. If you could meet even the most basic threshold of facts contrary to our 17 years of real world experience, we would have something we could talk about. Since the dealer has failed the most basic functions of diagnosis we can’t even confirm if the alternator is weak or not or if there is an inappropriate draw somewhere in the system.
Beyond these points we also made it clear these kits have been on hundreds (500+) of other K-Series cars with no issues whatsoever. You say others have had problems and that we just call this an “isolated incident” for no reason. We have yet to hear of any other problems beyond you and your friend directly or indirectly. Don’t’ talk about facts without providing proof of those facts in the form or correspondence (e-mail or web-boards). Another fact is that as these K-Series engines age, many are now almost 10 years old, their accessories will wear out especially the alternator which can lose almost 25-30% of its output at idle once it reaches operating temp even within the first year.
Then you try to muddy up the water even further with the mention of your friends problem which is even more problematic as his car is actually a 2009 based on his e-mail to us. We would assumed since he’s your friend you would know the actual model year of his car too. So what was your point in bringing him up? His car is even older and we also have no idea what mods have been done to his car either.
It seems to us that you and your friend may have done the same things which is most likely the cause of these issues.
We also take issue with the fact that you’ve had these parts installed since April but yet you’ve waited almost 4 months to tell us you are having a problem. It’s quite possible had you contacted us right away we could have solved this quickly and without all the unnecessary expense.
Not to say that this shows a problem pattern with your claims but usually when someone hides a problem it’s because they know they’ve done something wrong and since they were not able to rectify it themselves they now lash out at the dealer or vendor. I bet you Throwdown Performance never even heard anything from you either as Mark is always on the ball and would have let us know the minute you called him with a problem.
Unless the proper steps are taken to diagnose the possible causes there is nothing more we can do for you. Our reputation is flawless and speaks for itself. Whenever we have ever had a problem, can’t even count them on one hand, we have made good on rectifying the issue. Any attempt by you to sully this fact with your lack of facts will be vigorously defended against.
Respectfully,
Unorthodox Racing Inc.
Mr Keefe's final response:
Well I didn't know about the steps required to prove the issue. I'm just curious how im having alternator issues and removing the pulleys stops the issue. It's hard to argue with that.
In regards to my friends car it is an 09, I forgot he bought it used in 2010.
I'm not saying the other lite mods I've had done aren't a possible thing to look at but the only removal has been the pulleys, as I stated before.
The part was installed a few months back but only recently started exhibiting issues, partially to not using my car as often while away and other factors. However once I noticed the issue I took action. I did not contact Throwndown since in my experience you contact the source directly, as most times you get pushed that way in the end.
I'm not trying to "destroy" your brand or anything of the sort, i'm simply trying to get this handled and as a small business owner myself I thought itd be beneficial to contact you guys.
Like I said before. I can't waste anymore time/money on this problem,I guess its lesson learned.
Sincerely,
----
Matthew Keefe
Now that's a quality reply! Admins?
Oh by the way I assume you did your homework when you bought the pulleys too?
From the UR FAQ section:
Our underdrive pulleys are designed to allow for the addition of aftermarket stereo systems up to approximately 600 watts RMS. If the stereo system in question is above that wattage amount then the owner can purchase our stock diameter crank pulley will maintain the voltage output just like the stock crank pulley.
Capacitors are a smart addition to any audio system as they store the power the amplifiers need for peak draw. Our stock diameter series used with capacitors allow the vehicle owner to achieve the cleanest and most powerful sound with no loss in voltage output. Another good option would be to install a second battery or batteries just for the stereo.
Shawn
Oh by the way I assume you did your homework when you bought the pulleys too?
From the UR FAQ section:
Our underdrive pulleys are designed to allow for the addition of aftermarket stereo systems up to approximately 600 watts RMS. If the stereo system in question is above that wattage amount then the owner can purchase our stock diameter crank pulley will maintain the voltage output just like the stock crank pulley.
Capacitors are a smart addition to any audio system as they store the power the amplifiers need for peak draw. Our stock diameter series used with capacitors allow the vehicle owner to achieve the cleanest and most powerful sound with no loss in voltage output. Another good option would be to install a second battery or batteries just for the stereo.
Shawn
Read post #9.
You've got 2000W of amp and regardless of caps you are way over the 600 watts of additional draw we recommend for underdrive. That's without your high watt bulbs being factored in.
This is the last response as we should not have to re-explain ourselves when we respond in plain english.
You've got 2000W of amp and regardless of caps you are way over the 600 watts of additional draw we recommend for underdrive. That's without your high watt bulbs being factored in.
This is the last response as we should not have to re-explain ourselves when we respond in plain english.
This is something i have to write about.
I have been using UR Underdrive pulley for almost 1 year now, NOT one PROBLEM.. I am running Aftermarket lowbeam, Foglight HID's 55w for both, Running RF Mid's and High's NOT PASSING THE Recommended by UR 600watt System upgrade.
So i have to say something may have been installed wrong.
I will back UR pulleys 100% on this one..
09-19-2011, 02:42 PM
#149
You know i Don't post much here, since i don't have a Acura but love sneaking around.
This is something i have to write about.
I have been using UR Underdrive pulley for almost 1 year now, NOT one PROBLEM.. I am running Aftermarket lowbeam, Foglight HID's 55w for both, Running RF Mid's and High's NOT PASSING THE Recommended by UR 600watt System upgrade.
So i have to say something may have been installed wrong.
I will back UR pulleys 100% on this one..
This is something i have to write about.
I have been using UR Underdrive pulley for almost 1 year now, NOT one PROBLEM.. I am running Aftermarket lowbeam, Foglight HID's 55w for both, Running RF Mid's and High's NOT PASSING THE Recommended by UR 600watt System upgrade.
So i have to say something may have been installed wrong.
I will back UR pulleys 100% on this one..
09-19-2011, 03:10 PM
#150
Cruisin'
09-19-2011, 03:43 PM
#152
Cruisin'
yeah i will work on it tonight when i get home, to make a Master Build Thread
09-19-2011, 05:19 PM
#153
my8th is pretty cool, but theres so many fucking retards on DA.net... D:
09-19-2011, 08:31 PM
#154
My issues happened a month after i removed my stereo which was 600w RMS...explain that one? Also i knew the voltage was going to go down, anyone with a brain knows when installing under drive pulleys it will do that. The problem was the voltage dropped so much the car wasnt even drive-able. During the day the car was fine no issues what so ever. At night with the headlights on a hole nother story. The navigation would flicker or not even work at all, The stereo would cut in and out, i would get a check charging system light and power steering would get very very heavy. Not only that but if i turned off the car the battery was dead as a doornail and wouldnt even start the car. So now not only am i not able to drive my car with the normalcy the product claims to keep (minus the "small" voltage drop), i have to call a company to come jump my car in the stop and shop parking lot for an example, there have been many instances of dead batteries. Now your telling me that this is what the product was designed to do?? The product wasnt researched enough to realize on our application with our high power draw from all the technology and HID lights it just wouldnt work. But yet UR still put the product out there for us to buy. Explain to me how you back UR 100%. It literally made the car undriveable/unreliable. Funny thing is i still have the alternator pulley from UR on my car because The shop wanted more money to do the alternator and told me the only problem was the crank pulley....and what do you know they were right! So genius' that have all the technical backup to the UR pulleys which clearly we all know. Explain this one for me Pulley buffs
09-20-2011, 10:07 AM
#155
My issues happened a month after i removed my stereo which was 600w RMS...explain that one? Also i knew the voltage was going to go down, anyone with a brain knows when installing under drive pulleys it will do that. The problem was the voltage dropped so much the car wasnt even drive-able. During the day the car was fine no issues what so ever. At night with the headlights on a hole nother story. The navigation would flicker or not even work at all, The stereo would cut in and out, i would get a check charging system light and power steering would get very very heavy. Not only that but if i turned off the car the battery was dead as a doornail and wouldnt even start the car. So now not only am i not able to drive my car with the normalcy the product claims to keep (minus the "small" voltage drop), i have to call a company to come jump my car in the stop and shop parking lot for an example, there have been many instances of dead batteries. Now your telling me that this is what the product was designed to do?? The product wasnt researched enough to realize on our application with our high power draw from all the technology and HID lights it just wouldnt work. But yet UR still put the product out there for us to buy. Explain to me how you back UR 100%. It literally made the car undriveable/unreliable. Funny thing is i still have the alternator pulley from UR on my car because The shop wanted more money to do the alternator and told me the only problem was the crank pulley....and what do you know they were right! So genius' that have all the technical backup to the UR pulleys which clearly we all know. Explain this one for me Pulley buffs
BUT - if the problem goes away when you remove the aftermarket part then the aftermarket part is clearly at fault - perhaps not poor quality but clearly not properly designed for that application.
One of the first things to ask before you do a mod is "why didn't the manufacturer do this?"
The manufacturer would love to give you free horsepower, increased fuel economy, better lighting or whatnot, but there is ALWAYS some downside. In a few rare cases it is economic, but in most cases it is because the engineers decided that the aftermarket solution had engineering downsides.
In addition, ask yourself how a tiny aftermarket company can design a better intake/exhaust/pulley/headlight/whatever than the manufacturer who spends millions on research.
Quite simply, it is easy to say "the alternator is defective" but if it works fine with the stock pulleys then it really isn't defective, is it.
Manufacturers design their products to work in harmony with one another, the aftermarket designs products to meet a specific need and that brings with it unintended consequences.
09-20-2011, 10:14 AM
#156
09-20-2011, 10:32 AM
#157
I had the same exact model of Pulleys removed from my (at the time 2 month old) 2011 TSX last month and have since had ZERO battery and electrical issues. Maybe it was a fluke or maybe the product is defective but my one final attempt of contacting UR was of course met with "its you, not us". Whatever, i've learned never to buy or recommend that company. Others may love them but having worked in Cust Serv for years before they truly sucked at it.
Lesson learned when it comes to modding a Daily Drive, gotta mess up to learn for the future and I did just that. Hopefully I can save some headaches for others in the future.
Lastly, i've just thrown the pulley set in the closet and if a local friend or someone wants them for dirt cheap i'll one day pass them along, but will not be selling them online as its possible they are defective.
Thanks all to the AZ members for the help, busting my balls and providing insight into the saga of the UR pulleys.
Thanks,
Matt
Lesson learned when it comes to modding a Daily Drive, gotta mess up to learn for the future and I did just that. Hopefully I can save some headaches for others in the future.
Lastly, i've just thrown the pulley set in the closet and if a local friend or someone wants them for dirt cheap i'll one day pass them along, but will not be selling them online as its possible they are defective.
Thanks all to the AZ members for the help, busting my balls and providing insight into the saga of the UR pulleys.
Thanks,
Matt
In my (way too many) years of driving I've dropped quite a bit of money on mods and have learned one thing.
Every mod has a downside and most mods will come back to haunt you.
Like I said in an earlier post, there are a few other things I learned along the way - specifically - most aftermarket companies don't have the ability (read - money) to design and test their stuff for each application. Accordingly, they build something that is "one size fits all" with a few different clamps, screws, bends and stickers to differentiate it or to make it fit. In most cases it is a compromise and inferior to the stock part it replaced - but it may look cool and give you bragging rights.
Research potential mods carefully. If there are reported downsides, then see if they might apply to your situation. Be wary of reported results. A CAI, pulley or exhaust won't give you noticeable gains. You'll think you feel the difference but the truth is that you want it to feel different because you just dropped lots of coin on that mod and you need to justify that to yourself (and to the community.)
Research the possible legal implications of a mod. Sidemarkers may seem foolish to you, but they are a requirement in the US and some states with periodic inspections check for that. It isn't the mod's fault that you failed. It isn't the law's fault that you failed. It is your fault. If you don't like a law, find out the ways of getting it changed. If you thumb your nose at a law, be ready to pay the consequences.
Finally, think of others. That cool 1200w foglight mod may light up the night but it is your responsibility to assure that you don't blind oncoming traffic (BTW, the only way you can do that is to use OE bulbs)
The following 3 users liked this post by ceb:
09-20-2011, 03:22 PM
#158
WTH happened to my garage
OY! If you thought the other one was long!!!
I don't want to perpetuate an attitude of apathy or indifference here. To the OP and other member who had problems with this part, it sucks to hear about your plights.
On the other hand, you can't swing a cat without hitting others who use these products and don't have problems.
If a vehicle "returns to normal" after removing them, that is a hard argument to counter. Why Ecko's car runs ok is that although the alternator is still being underdriven with the larger pulley, but the alternator's output is within spec could be a difference of 3% overdriving from where it was.
The engineers can decide what they want, but the bean counters have the ultimate line item veto. There hasn't nor ever will be a 'rare case' of reduced cost of production influencing a standard product offering. Look at the soon to be released decontented TSX SE. Seriously? I've seen dealerships to a better job at cobbling together a "Special Edition." No TDI, no 2.3T, no SH, no AWD, do you think those options had engineering downsides? Nope. Cost downsides.
Money, ROI vs R&D, margins, mula, flow, benjamins. Why better when good enough is good enough? Why did my speakers blow out 3 times in two years? Because they selected the very best top of the line $2 speaker money could buy.
Not always, I see your point, but we can't paint all mods with the same brush the OP claims to have used on the aftermarket manufacturer.
I respectfully disagree, not "every mod" has a downside. Besides, how would you quantify or qualify a remark like that? What are the parameters of the perceived downside? Cost? Efficiency? Aesthetics? Performance? Resale? NVH? Safety? Reliability? The Magnusson-Moss Act? What your wife/girlfriend/boss thinks? Losing 8 ft lbs on the low side to gain 20 on the big end? Geezus! Can you imagine the size of that flow chart with any available mod?
There is a lot of truth to this, particularly with the cheaper items on the market, of which there are a plethora to choose from.
While I agree poorly matched, researched or produced parts can yield negative gains, and that part of the increase is psychosomatic, independent tests on properly matched performance parts is hard to ignore or discredit. I agree there could be a trade off of a little torque here for more horsepower there, or vice versa, but peak gains are what sells parts. That will never change.
On the other hand, you can't swing a cat without hitting others who use these products and don't have problems.
If a vehicle "returns to normal" after removing them, that is a hard argument to counter. Why Ecko's car runs ok is that although the alternator is still being underdriven with the larger pulley, but the alternator's output is within spec could be a difference of 3% overdriving from where it was.
One of the first things to ask before you do a mod is "why didn't the manufacturer do this?"
The manufacturer would love to give you free horsepower, increased fuel economy, better lighting or whatnot, but there is ALWAYS some downside. In a few rare cases it is economic, but in most cases it is because the engineers decided that the aftermarket solution had engineering downsides..
The manufacturer would love to give you free horsepower, increased fuel economy, better lighting or whatnot, but there is ALWAYS some downside. In a few rare cases it is economic, but in most cases it is because the engineers decided that the aftermarket solution had engineering downsides..
I respectfully disagree, not "every mod" has a downside. Besides, how would you quantify or qualify a remark like that? What are the parameters of the perceived downside? Cost? Efficiency? Aesthetics? Performance? Resale? NVH? Safety? Reliability? The Magnusson-Moss Act? What your wife/girlfriend/boss thinks? Losing 8 ft lbs on the low side to gain 20 on the big end? Geezus! Can you imagine the size of that flow chart with any available mod?
Research potential mods carefully. If there are reported downsides, then see if they might apply to your situation. Be wary of reported results. A CAI, pulley or exhaust won't give you noticeable gains. You'll think you feel the difference but the truth is that you want it to feel different because you just dropped lots of coin on that mod and you need to justify that to yourself (and to the community.)
The following 3 users liked this post by HeavyDuty:
09-20-2011, 04:03 PM
#159
Boring!