dom

I've owned both, if there is a difference, its indiscernible and certainly not enough to avoid buying an AT.

HeavyDuty

I noticed the hood vibration really bad in a brand new 2008 A/T 1st gen loaner I had for two weeks prior to my 09 coming in. The hood shook badly in gear at a stop, and got worse when backing slowly while turning the wheels.

dom

Unless you sat in another 3 or 4 AT's that did the same thing that isn't saying much.

HeavyDuty

I've been in a couple of them before & saw some posts from owners about it. It's not intended to be an argument for buying the MT, but an observation nonetheless.

Tigmd99

It is amazing how someone can rationalize so much with so little....

09TSXMN

My test drive of the TSX was with an auto and I noticed it right off the bat. Another way to replicate it in your auto is to have the A/C on with the brake applied at a stop, and then put the car in nuetral. I guarentee you will feel a difference, especially in the steering wheel. NVH is not your friend. When in a manual at a stop, you do not feel it at any time.

Tigmd99

Aren't you the same one who complained about the choppy ride?? Well, that is because you drive a MANUAL!!

darmok

In twenty years y'all are going to be complaining about how cars don't vibrate, hum, rattle, or anything anymore since everything went electric...

hondaism

how about transmission losses Automatic vs Manual?

did anyone dyno their stock 2009 5AT TSX?

09TSXMN

I have never complained about the choppy ride as I think the car handles the road quite well, good balance of control versus comfort. I don't understand your comment on "choppy ride because it is a manual" as the suspension set-up is the same on both. What do you mean?

HeavyDuty

What are you talking about? Rationalizing an observation? WTH?

Tigmd99

Sorry, i mistakened you for 09TSXMan.

I am just making fun of some people here about making "associations"....

JD23

The 370Z with 7 speed automatic was tested in the most recent Car & Driver. Surprisingly, it recorded 0-60 and 1/4 miles times that were 0.2 sec and 0.3 sec faster than the Z with manual. Evidently, high-quality automatics can perform impressively.

wackura

How do they account for the fact that one test driver might change gears slower than another, especially when talking about precision within 300ms?

JD23

How do they account for it during every other test, most of which are conducted on MT vehicles? They probably don't, which means there is a margin for error in this test, like in any other. Considering that C&D pulled 4.6s 0-60 with the auto, which is the fastest I've seen for the Z, it's hard to argue that the manual is faster, even accounting for driver variability.

nebt

I went with AT and I love it though sometimes I wish I went with the MT for the more fun factor. Overall, the AT was the better option which suited me more.

Newplay1

5spd auto? So your left foot would be doing what when your driving?

aleks

Until Acura gets a twin clutch trans, manual is a better choice for enthusiasts.

Someone says real car like Caymans, Ferraris etc shouldn't be bought in auto. Their autos are the only way to go if you want to extract top performance out of those cars.

GTR comes in "auto" only, M3, Cayman, 911, Veyron, Evo X, all come with autos that are way superior to any manual.

Everyone should go down to their local Mitsu dealer or VW dealer and test drive a car with a twin clutch trans and see for themselves.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I've driven a couple of VW/Audi cars with the DSG. It's fine, but it's not as engaging and not as challenging to drive well as a proper manual. Even without questioning the performance of a traditional slushbox automatic versus the new generation of automated manual gearboxes, neither version of the "automatic" is quite as engaging to drive as a a true 3-pedal manual transmission and neither is as rewarding as when you drive the proper manual transmission well.

Call it nostalgia, if you want, but for some of us, the real enjoyment is in the challenge of learning something that requires precision and skill and is something only a small group of people can truly do well. Any "idiot" with a driver's license (or sometimes without) can drive an "automatic" but it takes a little more involvement to drive a car a proper manual.

aleks

To me the challenge would going faster and having more precise shifts and lines around a track. A manual transmission car lags behind a twin clutch car in that regard no matter how good of a driver a person is.

Everyone's got their preferences and if you enjoy changing gears using your foot there is nothing wrong with it. But every time this argument comes up people always throw the "I've got more control with my manual" card and that's just not true anymore.

wackura

I think "more control" might be a miswording, I think people really mean "I feel more of the car." I love all the muscle movements and the feedback, the little rewarding lurch that accompanies clutch engagement, the using of all four limbs for distinct purposes, alternating between engine braking and actual braking.

My interest in DSG will come down to how it feels. Even if it makes for a faster car it might not be enough. Having a slightly faster 0-60 time isn't that important to me, and anyone who prizes fast for the sake of fast over the overall driving experience needs to do some self analysis because unless you compete on an actual track against other drivers, you're trying to win an imaginary race that nobody is playing but you. Buying DSG because it's faster would defeat the purpose of the TSX. It's obviously not the fastest sedan in its category to begin with.

09TSXMN

Well said and right on the mark.

Tigmd99

It's funny...you think that driving a manual is like doing brain surgery!! Hint: there are plenty of idiots out there driving a manual...and some may drive it quite well. Wait a minute, when i was younger, we bought cars with manual because we couldn't afford the automatic option. In Europe (since we're talking about the great "driving culture"), people buy manual to be economical. Don't tell me that all those Europeans are professional drivers!

aleks

Fair enough. Twin clutch transmission do everything standard manuals do, rev matching, engine braking etc etc the only thing that's missing is third pedal. To some that's a huge deal. You're right in a sedan like TSX twin clutch might not be needed, but then why offer a standard manual transmission as the TSX is pretty slow so why bother.

It's all down to presonal preference. I have driven manuals all my life but would never say no to owning a GTR or an EVO MR just because they don't have a third pedal.

nj2pa2nc

My personal choice-manual transmission vehicles-All three of our vehicles have it.

JD23

These days, some Lambos and Ferraris are made only with DSG-style transmissions. An insistence on the third pedal would preclude some from driving the best sports cars in the world.

Craig-D

You guys keep arguing in favor of DSG-style and other exotic transmissions and you're right - their performance matches and often exceeds that of standard manuals. But think about something for a minute. How many cars on the market have these transmissions? Not very many. They are mostly offered in expensive sports cars and exotics. Unless they trickle down to mainstream vehicles, most of us will never own one. In most high volume cars on the road, manual still outperforms auto - including the TSX. You're talking nearly a second difference 0-60 mph on the TSX, which may not sound like much, but it's actually a big difference in real world acceleration.

When a DSG-type auto transmission is offered on the TSX, then we've got a debate here. Until then, I think we can all agree there's a big difference between the manual and auto TSX. I went to buy an auto. But I test drove both and the dealer could not talk me into taking the auto he had on the lot in the color I wanted after I drove the manual. So I made him to a dealer swap for a manual in grigio/ebony. The pickup from complete stops and up hills just wasn't there for me in the auto.

Tigmd99

Actually, DSG trannies are very popular...just look at VW Jettas. BMW 3-series will soon have it too (if not already, i am a bit outdated).

And what i think some of us are telling you is that the TSX isn't a hardcore sports car to really car about 1 second difference! I would bet you that my Sienna minivan can keep up (and possibly beat) with any stock MT TSX in acceleration! The TSX is a sensible economical car with some sportiness. I could care less if it was 1 or 2 seconds slower than MT because that is NOT why i bought it...but i do care that the transmission & throttle got to be responsive...and it is.

Craig-D

LOL. I'll take that bet on the Sienna minivan vs. manual tranny TSX. 8.4 vs. 6.7 seconds 0-60 mph.

VW/Audi only offers DSG on a few front drive models. The only BMW models that will have a dual clutch tranny option for 2009 are the M3, Z4, and the 335i. You'll get no argument from me that dual clutch auto trannies are superior to manuals in performance. But like the majority of cars right now, the TSX doesn't offer it, so I went manual. I could care less about 1 or 2 seconds too. But I do care about how strongly the car pulls from a stop or up a hill. The manual TSX has more of that torquey feel for me, and that's a must. My next car is very likely a Ford Taurus SHO, which is auto only. But with 365hp and 350 lb. ft. torque, no manual will be necessary to have that stoplight pull I crave.

Tigmd99

Actually, C&D got around 7.2 seconds or so on the Sienna...and some owners who have Youtube to prove it, have gotten to 6.5 seconds!

mucter

roffles at you two going at it with "my minivan can take your TSX".... wth are you guys smoking?

(not saying the sienna is slow or whatever, more just of a wtf moment, this thread is so outta control)

JD23

An interesting blog post on Edmunds regarding dual-clutch transmissions vs. traditional manuals:

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/2...for-wimps.html

Craig-D

It's an interesting debate. The dual clutch autos are clearly the superior technology, but in the end it's the machine doing the work and not the human. I think that's what those who are against it argue - that there's something to be said for us personally having total control over our machinery and not the other way around. Next thing you know, we'll have the car doing the actual driving. It's not so far-fetched, as we already have self-parking cars. Where does it end? I wonder if this is how the Cylons started out, and we know how that ended...

JD23

I agree to a point. The MT traditionalists should also hate things like ABS and power steering as they also take some control away from the driver and make cars easier to drive. In the same vein, people should also be solving long arithmetic problems on an abacus instead of a calculator and computers should not even exist.

I think the dual-clutch transmissions are a good compromise between a true manual and an automatic. Their versatility allows them to have high performance and the convenience afforded by the full automatic mode.

HeavyDuty

Good point! I don't need ABS, I can pump my brake pedal 28 times per second myself.

JD23

That's a red herring. My current car does not have ABS, yet I have never had an accident and I consider it to be perfectly safe. However, it would be safer with ABS.

A dual-clutch transmission can shift much faster than any human can shift a traditional MT. Faster shifts certainly aren't necessary, but they do improve performance.

ressling

6MT FTW. More fun to drive. Period.

aleks

To me my 6 speed automated manual is more fun than the 6 speed manual my car was offered with.

Craig-D

The term automated manual is an oxymoron. If it's automated, meaning you're not physically and mechanically disconnecting the tranny from the engine and rowing the gears yourself, then it is by definition not a manual. We should call double clutch trannies what they are: high performance automatics.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Give me an DCT on a TSX that provides the same or superior performance as my stick and I'll be first in line to ditch the stick for one. I didn't buy a manual TSX because I need total control. I'm as lazy as the next person and would embrace not having to row my own gears in heavy traffic. But the TSX left me no choice after test driving both versions. If I wanted a TSX and the performance I would be happy with, I had to go manual.

HeavyDuty

Uh, that was a lil joke...I need a tongue-in-cheek smiley.