godfather2

on the saturn statment because it's so TRUE (didn't even realize it until it was mentioned in this thread)

vip08

I'm not entirely sure why you mentioned the engines aren't exactly the same. Granted, they're not (as well as some other changes), but what does that have to do with Realtime working on an 09? There are plenty of people doing R&D with the 08s who've had them before launch. I'm not understanding how your statement correlates with his.

On another note, there's not a whole lot of sense being made in this thread or in very many of the others. It's quite obvious the bias previous gen owners have against the new gen, for whatever reason. But very few, if any, of you have actually taken the car out for a more involved drive than a test drive. Even the second update drive showed the second gen improves after the car is broken in. There's certainly reason to believe logically, it should further improve, but to write it off right off the bat with no real hard proof is ridiculous.

cg2006TSX

Why are so many posters in denial with the obvious change in direction Acura is taking, first with the elimination of the RSX and now with de-emphasis of sport for the new TSX? For those of us who can read a spec sheet, interpret the not so subtle message of their recent advertising and most importantly notice how the 2G performs specific to driving-centric measures, the answer is clear. The issue is not whether or not the 2G TSX is a good car, it is whether or not the 2G TSX builds on the promise of the 1G TSX and position the car as a competitor to similar offerings from Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes and others, including US manufacturers.

The new TSX is a mediocre 'good' car much like the new Accord is a mediocre 'good' car, however the world is full of mediocre 'good' cars. Car enthusiasts want more the 'good' car, they want a car that begs to be driven and in turn the driver loves to 'drive', as opposed to putt putting around while fooling around XM with Weather.

Unlike the 1G TSX, the 2G does not meet mine and apparently many others criteria for such a car. Beyond that, the new TSX represents a colossal failure on behalf of Acura to build on the promise of the 1G TSX and take the next step to becoming a serious brand.

davidspalding

Hilarious video. I'd be happy to ride shotgun with my cam for ya.
Same here in RTP....


So if I get the drift here, you guys are saying teh 2GEN TSX is 180 out from coming closer to competing with BMWs, Audis, Jettas, etc? (Many auto press reviews I'd read claimed the 1GEN TSX gave comparable driving experiences to the Euro sport sedans, but for thou$ands less.) Less white knuckle driving, more sedate driving and solid power? I did drive two 2004-ish Accord LX and V6 LX' the day before I drove a 2005 TSX and a 2006 RSX, and the Accords had that "insulated," boat feeling that I wasn't sure I wanted. (Sure, the V6 had nice acceleration and confident power. I was ready to get the V6 until I started pricing them with ext. warranties. Then a rare RSX -- for RTP -- showed up at Carmax.) When I got in the TSX and RSX the next night, they felt nimble. My mind was yanked away from the Accords.

Can ANYONE (Colin?) who's driven the 2GEN say it feels as nimble? I hear it's more rock solid, less body lean, nice confident steering (though you have to watch it on the highway at 55+ MPH),... do you feel you could push the outside of the envelope and feel it?

ishak540m

Yeah, I haven't actually sat inside the TL yet, lol. Just seen it from outside the window.

5thTo2nd

Actually, in building the 2G the way it has I think Acura has done well to make it more competitive vs. those marques you've mentioned. Acura doesn't need to make a car that has a faster 1/4-mile time than a 3-series or a G35. That's not what sells cars since the average buyer doesn't exploit the full potential of a car. Brand image and styling win out for the most part, and I think Acura's going for the up-scale, luxury image (even if that means alienating some of you/us enthusiasts). Sorry, but it's true.

I can't believe some of the belly-aching I read on here and other forums. The previous-gen did very well on many comparison tests, with a common complaint being that it was under-powered. Well, for the 2nd gen, Acura brings to market a car with more usable torque and at the same time better fuel efficiency and the complainers all come out in full force. Stop the whining. There's talk of the diesel coming in the near future, and possibly a variant with a larger-displacement engine to satisfy the "enthusiasts". But I've got a funny feeling even when that comes out there will be these same complainers posting about something else they don't like.

BTW, I did test drive the new one, and for what it's worth, I agree it probably won't satisfy the previous-gen owners looking for more sport, but it will appeal to buyers who are cross-shopping the 3-series, A4, IS, etc. given that it is more grown up

wackura

Is the "usable torque" actualy perceived or is that an improvement on paper?Some claim the 2G feels slower, I haven't seen anyone describe it as faster let alone adequately faster.

Jim Holloman

Hi David,

I have yet to find anyone that can keep a camera pointed at the road while being yanked from one side to the other. So, the idea is to fabricate a bracket, for the camera, that will mount to the same two holes that are normally used to mount the front license plate. The low position should also add some extra interest.

Many, if not most, of the tire stores in the area will not offer a mileage warranty. The reason -- they say that the mountain curves eat up the tires too fast.

You hit the nail right on the head.

My test drives Oct., '04 were, in this order:

4 cyl. Accord -- Well, its an okay car, but short on power and acceleration. But, corners fairly well.

6 cyl. Accord -- better acceleration than the 4 cyl., but more plowing, and pushing, in the corners until you get on the throttle -- then it would start pulling too hard. Also, seemed to have more body lean, or roll, in the corners than the 4 cyl. But, overall, slightly preferred over the 4 cyl.

TSX - Wow! Forget the Accords. This is it! Neutral in the corners. Acceleration as good as the 6 cyl. accord, little pushing in the corners and just the right amount of pull when the throttle hits the floorboard, steering that felt like it was on rails and tracking that was incredible (the car seemed to read your mind and know where you wanted it to go). A sport shift that was nearly instant (faster than I can do a manual shift) and allowed me to be in the desired gear at all times. The only bad thing about the TSX were the tires; and that could be easily fixed. The tires would rather squeal than grip.

In four years, the only vehicles that have left me behind in the mountains were a M3, a M5, and most any sport bike that cared to haul ass and leave me in their exhaust fumes. The most aggressive driving I have even done was the time I was behind a Jaguar that was being driven by a blond that was driving the car like she stole it. It is a good thing she knew the road or else at least one of us would have been off the side of the mountain. I though a couple of times she was going to side-swipe a safety railing.

The corollary is that I hate it when I get behind a SUV or Van (especially those from Florida with drivers that are either scared to death of the mountains or too busy sightseeing to drive -- and also refuse to use the pull-outs). Some will eventually use a pull-out and then lay on their horns as you pass -- like how rude it is of you to want to pass me; in spite of the signs informing slow drivers to use the pull-outs.

Most of the people that live in this area know the mountains and make good time. But, the highway patrol enjoys using their helicopter teams, I believe a Hughes 500 working with four patrol cars, to catch those that want to zip through the mountains at speeds unsuitable for the conditions. They seem to patrol mostly on Fri., Sat., and Sun., but can be out any day of the week.

Jim Holloman

Mod, this may be a little off topic, so delete at will.

I got a flyer for an Infiniti EX in the mail today. Not one word about horsepower, torque, road holding ability, VSA or ESP, ABS, cargo space, interior room or even gas mileage. What were they selling?

1) The straight and narrow:
If you begin to drift while driving, the Lane Departure Prevention System will gently help guide you back toward the center of your intended lane. [Perhaps the car has electrical boosted steering].

2) Sightseeing:
Navigate tight parking spaces with a virtual 360 degree view of your surroundings.

3) An inspired interior:
Immerse yourself in a refined interior with four color choices.

4) Your own music sanctuary:
Enjoy every note, aria, and chorus in rich, vibrant clarity...with a 11-speaker Bose premium audio system. [Didn't say how many watts].

5) Drive stress-free:
A top safety pick by the IIFHS.

Just want I wanted. A car that helps you drive it, helps you park it, has a refined interior, and thinks it is an audio studio.

I wonder if this is the market that Acura wants to go after.

cg2006TSX

I disagree for a number of reasons. First, you are correct that the TSX does not need to be faster than a 328, but I am sure you would agree needs to meet the baseline to be considered a luxury sports sedan. However, the present engine is a non-starter from 'credibility' perspective. Beyond acceleration, the 2G TSX does not come anywhere close to the steering feel and handling of the competition. Sorry, posters who are saying otherwise simply haven't driven the present competition or are unable to tell/unwilling to admit the significant difference in comparison. Now, I'm not suggesting that the TSX needs to match BMW, but the car should be at least capable of getting out of its own way. Second, while styling is indeed critical for luxury sports sedans, the simplicity and unpretentiousness of the 1G has been replaced by 2G's (very) weak attempt at style. If that grill isn't the equivalent of the class clown who is always trying to hard, I'm not sure what is. Lastly, when it comes to brand image, well, Acura doesn't have one.

As has been repeated ad nauseum, the engine improvements to the 2G are more than cancelled out by the increase in the 2G's weight and size. The bottom line is that the 2G TSX is a very different car that has completely lost sight of what made the 1G so popular with enthusiasts. To the point, Acura has miscalculated the importance of the positive halo effect that enthusiasts provided to the 1G TSX as a credible alternative to Tier 1 sports sedans for those on a budget.

The 2G is a poser, a bloated Accord pretending to be something that it is not, namely a sports sedan, and in its place is selling tech stuff that no one needs or wants. Enthusiasts know this, and trust me when I tell you that word has already spread. Younger buyers who once flocked to the TSX will be moving on to hipper, more credible cars such as the Mini or to performance-centric brands such as the BMW 1 and 3 or the Infiniti G.

I'm sure there will be many who are happy with the new TSX. Hell, if they knocked 3G off the sticker I might even recommend it to a girlfriend. In principle, the 2G TSX would have made a nice Type S for the Accord, provided it was outfitted with the same V6 in the 6MT Coupe. But I'm fairly sure that I'm not alone in my expectation that Acura was going to deliver a very different car then the car they ultimately decided to introduce. Time will tell who is right.

09TSX

cg2006TSX...I totally respect your opinion although I couldn't disagree more with you. You say the 2nd generation doesn't have improved performance....I haven't driven the manual so maybe there, there isn't any difference but from an automatic to automatic (2006 vs 2009) the difference is noticeable...very noticeable in my opinion....As far as Acura's poor attempt at their interior design and failing, you may not like the new design, several people have said they love its new design. I will agree with you 100% on one thing, the car can not directly compete with an Audi A4 or BMW 328 in terms of handling...but are you saying you love the interior of the Audi A4? Or BMW's?? Those tacky swivel cup holders that swings out of the dash, or Audi cheesy arm rest area?! Now several people bash Acura's design resembling too much that of the Accord...I urge you to go check out the interior of the 2009 Maxima and tell me that doesn't look like an Infiniti G35....or the altima coupe does not look like an infiniti?! The bottom line is NO ONE WILL EVER AGREE ON THESE FORUMS...some will like the new TSX (like myself) and some will dislike it (like yourself) and thats fine. Once your current TSX needs to be replaced, maybe Acura will have something else to offer you if not, there are plenty of car manufacturer that will appreciate your business but keep in mind that not everyone is here looking for a car that handles like a BMW, and I know you have made that clear that its not what you intended to say. Its hard for Acura to find a proper classification for its TSX...after all, its competing with rear wheel drive (or all wheel drive) so it will never handle the ame, yet its can't be put in the same section a Pontiac G6 either. Don't be too harsh on the TSX, you may not like the new TSX but you do drive one now and who knows, maybe in time, they'll come out with a turbo and an SH-AWD and by the then, the love will begin all over again...don't burn any bridges with Acura yet

PS...I agree with you, the grill is Acura's weakest point on the car but I still bought an 09...

davidspalding

Have you looked at the TOV dyno test of the '09? They compared it with, IIRC, a 2006 TSX.

http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=755732

Short answer: yes, on paper there is more power. Comparable to a Hondata reflash IMHO.



Next question.... (joking)

prballard

The 09 is faster than my 04. IMO It don't know about post MMC 1G TSX. On a test drive yesterday I really enjoyed hitting the VTEC @ 5K rpm, instead of 6K.

davidspalding

I miss Califrigginfornia at times (but not the prices! I'm closing on a townhome this week for a price I couldn't get an outhouse for in No. Cal.), it's the law that if you have 5 or more cars behind you needing to pass, you have to pull over and let them, REGARDLESS OF YOUR SPEED. If you're doing the maximum safe speed (the ol' "Basic Speed Law" rule that I liked there), and 5 speed demons want by, you hafta let 'em. I miss that.

Dunno if front bumper mount is legal (without film production licenses or whatever the troopers need), but ... have you thought of using the passenger head rest mount? If you could lock a tripod onto something fixed in there...?

I've done filming from an aircraft with an acquaintance's camera with professional stability stuff in it, sometimein the early -mid 1990s. (Not consumer grade, not digital, but semi-pro I think. Connie was an oil tycoon, so $ wasn't an issue.) Standing in an old HU-16E Grumman "Goat", handheld filming of Army paratroopers getting ready to bale out. It worked well. I'm sure it would for your application, as well. Too bad Full Frame just ended, I'm sure people walking around could've told me exACTly what you need.

MMsTSX

you're right, Acura can't compete with Infiniti.
that's why when I went to buy an '09 TSX, I ended up going next door
and buying an '08 G35 instead.

I wasn't about to buy some car that can't compete, and maybe in the future
will be less ugly, over-priced and under-powered. We're not talking future here...

who cares what they do in the future, they blew it on this one.

oh, and the Infiniti interior is actually pretty nice.
the Accord interior is not nice. why copy a cheaply made crap interior?

IMO, the only thing the TSX can hold against the G35 is gas mileage.
and that being the case, you mise well go buy a fit or something...

Mokos23

post pics of the G35! nice!
change your avatar to grateful G35 driver or something.

MMsTSX

yeah, I should post pics... I've had it for over a week now...
I'll try to take some today.
It's blue slate, very close to the Carbon Gray Pearl color, just a touch more blue.

Mokos23

blue slate is a good color. what did you do to your old TSX?

prballard

I thought this was an Acura forum.

Iceman

The new TSX corners flat, the old one doesn't. The new TSX has fenders big enough to hold 18" wheels, the old one doesn't (believe me when I tell you I know the meaning of the term "curb rash"). The extra weight was added when they lengthened the wheelbase in order to improve handling. They sure didn't add any interior room.
So tell me again how the new one is going in the wrong direction?

Draconis77

I'll take one!

Mokos23

It hasn't been an Acura forum in the off topic section since about 2004

5thTo2nd

Congrats on your G. It's really a nice car and it's really turned Infiniti around but it's definitely not for me with the gas prices skyrocketing.

Kind on the same thread, anyone else hear that Infiniti is working on a car that's smaller and more fuel-efficient than the G? Makes sense--maybe they'll build the car some people wanted the new TSX to be.

5thTo2nd

I don't think Acura's pretending that the new TSX is a sports sedan--just look at the recent commercials that have come out. It's not touting the sporty nature of the car, it's trying to suggest that it's a cool, hip car that's modern and futuristic. Think Acura: Advance, not Acura: Beating BMW at their own game.

That's what I think people need to get over--Acura decided to go with luxury, not sport with this one. And to reiterate, for those who were hoping for sport, you might get what you want when the larger-displacement engine offering comes out.

MMsTSX

Well my TSX isn't quite old yet. It's only one model year old, and it's only 5 months old.



It's sitting in the driveway next to the G.

I have both, both are 2008, like in my sig.


the only bad point about the G, and it's stated all over, is the gas mileage.
I'm only getting about 22 mpg in it. On the same roads the Acura gets 27 mpg.

So I tend to drive the Acura a little more, and will probably take it on the long trips.
But man do I love that G.....


The Infiniti guy said it's a shame they don't have a G25 now, and he knows of no
plans to make one soon. He thinks the new TSX is "wrong" looking... I chuckled.

5thTo2nd

http://thehollywoodextra.blogspot.co...coming-up.html

09TSX

mmstsx...no offense but if you are not happy with the 2009 specs, how could have you been happy enough to buy an 08 model? I can see buying an 04/05 when they first came out? Its not like the 08 tsx outperformed the G35...so why didn't you just get the G35 then? Another point you made about the TSX being more economical than the G35...isn't that whats fun about owning a car, when you can drive it and not worry about gas? One also have to ask, why not get a Nissan as they have the same engine, pretty much same interior as well....again, just trying to understand why people bash the TSX so much...especially when so little has changed from the previous generation...in fact, thats the biggest compalint the TSX has gotten so far, not enough change except the sheet metal and interior look but not change in Tranny and choice of engine....

MMsTSX

I bought a 2008 TSX because it's a killer car.
Just ask the thousands on this forum. Minus Hondata the 2008 is the best TSX
ever made (some will now argue they like the 09 better, but whatever).

no, fuel economy is not what's fun about a car.
where do you live?

a Nissan? I think you need to look at the Maxima vs. G35 again... you're missing
a WHOLE lot of the point of owning a G...

Show me how the Nissan interior and Infiniti interior are the same.
Show me how they're the same car...

The new TSX is fat, ugly, sluggish, cheaper in materials, ugly, and to me something
about it is terribly wrong.


Why do you question me having both a G35 and a TSX?

do you not see the differences between the two?
the TSX serves me one purpose, the G35 serves me the other.

The G35 fills in all the gaps I'm missing in the TSX, and the other way around too.

They're a perfect compliment to each other, at least for me personally.

prballard

To each there own. What is up with that shift knob and oblong clock?

Infiniti sure has come a long way since the understated elegance of the J30.

To be far the exterior of the G35 is very nice, but you don't have to look at the exterior every day. You do the interior and that sucks!!!

Jim Holloman

That's an idea to consider. I might could get an extra head rest from a TSX that has been totaled. I wonder what citation one could get for having an unauthorized camera mounted. I have also thought about seeing if I could somehow fix a tripod in the rear floorboard. I have a tripod that has legs that can be locked at any angle and, and of course, are adjustable in length. Then the column can also go up and down. I will give it a try it once I recover from a nasty sinus infection.

Jim Holloman

You should have gotten a good deal on the G35 with the economy and gas prices as they are.

You are now going to have to watch that speedometer closer than ever -- when driving the G35.

xenonhid

Haha, I'm laughing but crying at the same time seeing such a beautiful 1st Gen model turn into a TURD MISSILE with a Saturn Grill.

No offense to Saturn Car owners though. I'm sure they are a great value for what they are.

wackura

I think the new TSX looks like agressive, like the ugly bully on the playground that transferred the punches his dad dealt him to the other kids. The problem is that it's a lie, the car says "I have a big tough engine" but no, no it doesn't.

vip08

Why do so many posters fail to acknowledge the real problem with HMC? For those of us in the know--those who do more than read a spec sheet (like actually design, build and drive cars, for example)--we interpret an absolutely different message beyond Acura's recent--and previous--marketing campaign. The "answer" isn't quite as clear as you'd like to believe.

As much as I, and I'm sure you all, love the TSX, it only continues to highlight a much larger issue with Honda/Acura. Nobody's really on the same page. Even Hyundai has a clearer vision of what they want, where they need to be and how they plan on getting there. Obviously, these two companies aren't even close to one another, but the end goal as a business is still the same as it is with all car companies. Still it's a fair example.

Where Hyundai differs from Acura--aside from the obvious--is execution. Hyundai's not the world-beater they want to be and it'll take quite some time, but they're also not holding Kia back from the direction they want to go globally (unlike what Honda is doing to Acura). Acura isn't quite as direction-less as they could be, but they most certainly don't agree on pushing harder than any owner/enthusiast of a Honda/Acura in the last 20 years knows they're capable of. And I believe the TSX is the root of the entire issue, the 2G further proving my point. In my absolute honest opinion, the TSX either needs to disappear completely from the Acura lineup so Acura can start afresh or Honda as a whole needs to have a long chat with everyone in a higher position in the corporate offices amongst the global markets. Acura has SOME control, but because they're relying on Europe for the car's design, their hands are also tied. The TL is in a far better position to make an Acura world debut, even if the people on these types of forums think "it's just an overbloated Accord" (how they complain about the TL, but love the TSX in that regard, I have no idea). If Acura plans on going global in two to three years, they're going to have a far tougher time selling the idea with the TSX the way it is. I'm not saying ditch the FWD. I'm not saying ditch the 4-Cyl engine. But take a look at the Lexus' poor sales in its home market. It's not like Mercedes or BMW, both luxury imports to Japan and world wide. Unlike Acura, Infiniti or Lexus, BMW and Mercedes aren't luxury "versions" of anything. Nobody wants to pay 20% more for the same car with a slightly different face and very little else to distinguish it from the "non-premium" model. If Honda Europe continues to dictate what Acura gets, the entire idea is difficult to pitch, which brings me to the marketing you brought up. Honestly, what would you do if your bosses handed you a project you didn't necessarily agree with? You'd try to spin it and make the best of it wouldn't you? That's why there's been a change in Acura's marketing. It has little-if-anything to do with Acura trying to "de-emphasize sportiness". The 2G TSX isn't as bad as some of you are trying to make it and apparently a longer, more involved drive proves this (hey, Automobile Magazine's pretty smitten). I argue it is not quite as evolutionary as it could've been (the new Audi A4 comes to mind, specifically where exterior and interior design are concerned; I don't know anything about the actual drive, yet but look forward to it).

On price alone, the TSX is difficult to beat, but trying to mask problems created by Honda Europe by throwing a Technology Package over it, isn't going to entice buyers looking for something worthy of their dollar. Since you brought it up, the TSX, IMNPO, is competitive on paper and even to a degree, on the road and the only vehicle I can absolutely think of that has the edge is the 3-series from BMW. The IS250, 2.0T A4 and C-Class are good cars obviously, but I arguably swing in favor of the TSX once behind the wheel. Much like the new Accord you mentioned, the TSX doesn't do any one thing extraordinarily well, but it tries to be many things to many different people, which would work if it were supposed to be an Accord seller. It's not. It's a 4-cylinder premium sports sedan, making it affordable, which SHOULD equate to more mainstream appeal, but ironically because of the FWD in THIS particular market, it's also one of the most niche'. Acura's only real mistake with this generation would've been making this the only engine and drivetrain configuration available, but fortunately, it's not.

So if you want to point fingers, point them at Honda Europe. Not Acura. Acura's "direction" is a result of the Euro Accord being exactly what it is. Ironic, considering how you all are arguing with one another about what exactly the TSX is and what the 2G TSX isn't. The concept of a 2G TSX is, overall, closer to where Acura SHOULD be heading, but, as is, is more of a hinderance to Acura's overall plan than Acura's RSX was, primarily because, fortunately, Europe had little, if ANYTHING, to do with its development. That said, for what the 2G TSX is, it's still not quite as bad as you all seem to be trying to convince yourselves. My entire point was, most of you are saying the 2G isn't "this" or isn't "that" and few, if any of you, have actually got the new car in a setting to exploit its capabilities. Testing the handling on on-ramps and parking garages doesn't exactly count, although I'm sure someone will argue with me on that. Fact is, most of you will never need to exploit the car beyond the 95% of your typical daily driving. But until a genuine comparison between the 1G and 2G is actually made, I see no point in using somebody else's initial opinion to argue what's already turning out to be a moot point. I'm sure you all have read Jeff's updated review on vtec.net.

I think it's funny that you're all under the assumption that this is the only direction Acura, seperate from Honda Europe, has in store for the car.

And for the record, talk to me, not down to me, next time. I'm not as stupid as you may incorrectly assume.

dom

So you're saying Acura's hands were tied but this SHOULD have been the car they released anyway? Does that make sense?


I think I agree with most of what you're saying but some clarification would be nice.

dom

IMO the real issue with Acura is the fact that continue to base their sedans off an Accord platform. Do I think RWD is a necessity? Not entirely but it is a clear differentiation between the brands. It immediately separates Honda from Acura and brings instant credibility like the NSX did all those years ago.

The MDX does a great job of separating itself from Honda. Now its time for the TSX, TL and RL to follow suit.

Iceman

This is where I have to call you out, man. Do not give my opinion for me. I own an '04 and love it, but I am very interested in the 09's. You want to give your own opinion? Fire away. Just don't make any assumptions about what everyone else thinks.

Draconis77

MMsTSX

god, you sound like a tool.

you even highlighted what I said.

does it say "everyone?" ah.... no.

it says and many others.

is many others everyone?

ah....no.

I guess you don't understand the English language.
and if you think I'm wrong and many don't agree with me, then you obviously
haven't read the rest of this site and what people have to say.

where does it say I'm speaking for you.

back off dude, go burn one and try reading again.

dom

Lets keep this civil people......