CGL

Hi everyone, my car started to lose power and engine started jerking (with rpm up and down) in park, then shuts down, and hasn't been able to start ever since (4 days ago).

Long story short, history:
- timing belt changed 2 days prior to incident (by myself).
- did not mark the cams but I didn't turn any cams or crank, either.
- installed new timing belt, put everything back together.
- Started the car on first crank.
- I noticed engine idle soundes like an 80's pickup truck (exact sound as in the other post with video clip)
- drove it to work (120 miles, round trip), as I got closer to home, engine suddenly lose power. Tried giving more gas but it picked up speed very very slowly.
- pulled into parking lot - noticed engine jerking badly.
- Shuts car off, turned back on - jerking still there.
- tried driving it home (slowwwwwly)
- engine shuts down and didn't start since
- towed home.

I had re-done the timing belt (following MotionEffect's instructions) for about 6 times now, with getting TDC on crank and cams on various positions. Occasionally, after a timing belt re-done, I'd cranked to engine and it DID started for 1/2 sec., then stopped.
I've got fuel (smelled it, and spark plugs have fuel on the tips). Possible floaded spark plugs? No, because I replaced the fuel-contaminated plugs all 6 with brand new plugs.
Checked my intake connections, everything seems to be there (AEM CAI).
Used OBDII scan tool 3 times - NO codes.
left it as is overnight, came back this morning and tried to start the car BEFORE doing anything else - it starts for 3/4 sec., then stops. During that 3/4 sec., I could hear pingin/knocking sounds from engine.
Took the intake cover off, and noticed fuel sitting in there by the bolts.
I know I have adequate cranking power because the battery is hooked up to another spare battery which is also hooked up to a battery jumper, which is also plugged into the wall socket.

It cranks, but does not want to start. I am out of ideas of what to try next.

*NOTE*: Is it possible for the cams TDC markings to be showing aligned, but it's actually NOT at TDC? The reason I asked is because just before the engine shuts off (during drive), I did rev it up as I tried to give it more gas. I notice some pinging noise, then it shuts off.

Please help!

2002 TL-P - 105K - AEM CAI - XS Headers (installed same time as timing belt change).

MotionEffects

It is possible you are off a tooth since you mention the engine sounds rough. can you post a clip of you cranking your motor over?

CGL

I think the rear cam was off tooth a bit after the initial timing belt change.
I will run down there and try to record a cranking sound clip for you.
btw, does it matter if I had the crank pulley on or not, when cranking? Everything's taken off right now, except for the timing belt. Thanks

MotionEffects

You dont have to record a sound clip if everything is off. Just double check all your timing marks since your almost there. if you need. i can get a you a copy of workshop instructions on timing marks. Just give me your email

CGL

Just took some pics and a clip and uploaded to my webspace, but "due to high volume of traffic, it's temporarily unavail, blah blah..." But the pics below (viewable whenever site is back up and running):





http://trice.homestead.com/files/cranking.wav

CGL

I can also send you the pic via email.

My email is: thien.n.nguyen@gmail.com

As of right now, crank and front cam's timing mark are dead on, the rear timing mark is 1/8 off.

thank you for your help.

01tl4tl

the marks have to be spot on or it will run like you describe
thats why they put marks there!!

6spMike

If it was off when you first put it together, you probably bent a valve.
once you get the belt right, check the compression to see.

99three2l

My car used to do the same thing, it would start and then jerk,ping and shut off.Tney told me it was the ignition supposedly got fixed.Then it started shutting off while im driving making a turn, they told me it was the relay.Try to give it gas after starting it will keep it going . Check your relay and ignition checked out. Also check the recalls your vehicle has...

CGL

MotionEffects: Thank you for the email attachment.

I just tried cranking it and pumping the gas pedal at the same time. This time, with the key kept in the crank position the engine ran (weakly) as long as I kept pumping gas. Once I release the key from crank position, engine dies.

MotionEffects

so your engine doesnt fire up correct? the starter is just turning the motor over but wont start?

CGL

Yup, starter turning motor but won't start. It kind of start (or wants to start) like my previous description above, after leaving car overnight.
Ignition fuse/relay is fine, all 6 coil connectors have voltage.

fsttyms1

Do you hear any abnormal noise like ticking or chatter? You may be 180 off on the timing on the crank.

d4atls

sounds like timing to me..... any chance you've used a timing light on it? take it to a shop and get them to put one on it..... doesn't take but a second.

Agentphan007

check you grounds

MotionEffects

Its kinda hard to diag a problem without looking at the car. I say backtrack and re-check everything you did.

CGL

fsttyms1: I think I heard a little bit of that. I double checked that the crank at TDC by sticking a long stick down the sparkplug hole in the No. 1 cylinder (first one on the rear head?). Still, no start.

d4atls: Did not use timing light on it. I have the timing gun still sitting in the sealed box. LOL.

Agentphan007: I tried checking grounds and nothing suspicious.

MotionEffects: I backtracked and could only remembered doing the timing belt.

hhmmm...I did remember seeing a spark as I was tightening the nut that holds the single connection (one thick gauge black wire) on the alternator. I accidentally make a connection between that wire to the front cylinder head. No blown fuses, though. Could that messed up the ignition coils? It happened on the night before I drove the car to work (next day).

01tl4tl

you have to make sure you are on the compression stroke of number 1

01tl4tl

go back to what you have done, before thinking something else has been damaged
That might have occured, but its your own work that is often the culprit

MurdaZ

iTrader: (1)

yea cylinder#1 has to be on TDC and the timing marks all be aligned

CGL

OK, I just switched a couple of the rear ignition coils with the front ingnition coils....cranked her up....sounds like she WANTS to start....but lacking fire somewhere.....I have the 02 RL parked in front....is it safe to pull the coils from the RL and give it a shot?

CGL

nevermind, wrong coils.

01tl4tl

wants to start but lacking fire-- is often being off 180 degrees on the crankshaft rotation
No spark at the correct time- not plain ol no spark~

CGL

I will try it tomorrow with the crank rotated 180 degrees.

DoC-JoneS

shot in the dark here and i know it's not timing related, but i had a smiliar problem with my old accord. ended up being the EGR valve (was a common problem with those cars). probably not it but sounds SO similar. probably is the timing belt though. did you replace the tensioner when you did the belt job?

6spMike

Were there any strange symptoms before you changed the timing belt?
Is this the right sequence of events?
1) Was running fine.
2) Changed timing belt.
3) Ran, but not very well, then got worse and worse and now won't start.
4) You found that the rear camshaft was a tooth off on the belt.

If the above is true, I think the most likely cause is bent valves due to the cam being a tooth off.

Make sure the timing marks are where they are supposed to be after the belt tension is correct, then check the compression to see which one(s).

If the crank is lined up to the mark correctly and the cam marks are lined up correctly, then the crank can't be 180 degrees off.

Replacing the bent valves is a bigger job; you have to take the head off, etc.

CGL

6spMike:

1) Was running fine.
2) Changed timing belt.
3) Ran well (considering the fact that I drove it like I stole it, hitting redlines occasionally), only noticed sound from engine especially during idle which sounded like 80's pick-up truck -> sound did not get worse.
4) On second day since timing belt change: was on freeway then suddenly car/engine got weak -> very hard to accelerate/pick up speed.
5) Found out that rear cam was off about a tooth.

Question:
After lining up ALL TDC marks, how do I go about with the compression test? which apparatus, where to get, how to....etc...?

I've taken the intake manifold out to clean the ports (2 of the small holes are 90% covered with crap).

Thanks.

phee

iTrader: (5)

place the palm of your hand on the spark plug whole as you turn the crank(no plug in there of course) if you feel it sucking then you have compression-poor mans compression test

6spMike

It may be that the belt tension got loose and it slipped a tooth; it should only deflect a small amount (few mm) between any two pulleys if it is adjusted correctly. Get the timing belt on correctly before doing the compression test.

AutoZone or similar will loan or rent you a compression tester.
It's a pressure gage that screws into the spark plug hole.
You remove all the spark plugs, then crank the engine for a few seconds (I listen for 5 compresssion strokes on each cylinder). with the gage installed for each cylinder. It tells you the compression pressure; if a valve is bent, that cylinder will be low. The pressure shouldn't vary more than about 10-15% between the highest pressure cylinder and the lowest.
Disable the ignition or be careful about the spark plug boots when you do this; you can get a nasty shock. You also may wish to pull the fuel pump fuse. Spark + fuel from the spark pulg holes on the other cylinders = bad.
The hand test will probably work fine, too; it may not pick up a slightly leaking valve, but only a slight leak probably wouldn't cause the problem.

I don't think it's probable that the EGR valve is stuck open; As far as I know, it should still run fine at cruise with a stuck EGR, it just won't idle; so that doesn't fit the 'it lost power' symptom.

Let us know your progress.

CGL

Is this the one you're talking about? http://www.drivewire.com/vehicle/acu...elt-tensioner/

Will keep you guys updated. Thanks for all your helps.

6spMike

Probably.

I've never been inside the TL motor, but that looks pretty similar to others I've seen. You typically have to take all of the play out of the belt, then hold the tensioner so that it keeps the belt tight, then tighten the tensioner mount bolt to keep it there. Sometimes there's a small spring to hold the tensioner while you tighten the bolt; that spring is not intended to tension the belt.

CGL

Sorry for digging this up, but I still owed a long overdue update and findings. After the frustrating attempts, I've decided to put it aside (we have an extra car for work) parked in the garage hibernating...ok, I was also being a lazy butt. Finally got off my lazy butt (missing the v-tec roar) and found the following, as I was making my way to the cylinder heads, suspecting some bent valves (recalled that I did revved it too high while downshifting)
I FINALLY GOT IT TO START!!!!

****UPDATE: Thank you's for all the suggestions (check fuel/spark/timming, etc...).

THE REASON it didn't want to start (or started for 1/4 of a sec then shuts off) is because the singly tooth on the center opening of the FRONT cam pulley was broken off. Therefore, the front camshaft wasn't being turned fully resulting in off-timming = no start . ****

Bought a new cam pulley, installed it, installed timing belt, first crank - BAM! she started.

HOWEVER, she hesitated poorly. I was then able to confirm my suspicion by getting ZERO compression on cylinder #2....and ALSO low compression (110-120 psi max) on cylinder #1.

Ordered some new exhaust valves, ran around town and was lucky enough to find a valve spring compressor that works (not at Napa, Schucks, nor Autozone). Installed new valves on cylinder #1 and #2. The old valves were indeed bent especially on cylinder #2 - I placed it on a flat surfaced and rotated and it was leaning pretty good - they got stuck!

Put everything back together with new gaskets and torqued to specs. She started on first crank.

HOWEVER, doesn't look nor sound like she is running right. Took for a test drive....pulls pretty hard and no problem getting to freeway speeds (60 - 80 mph). Engine was shaking a bit though and sounded like she was running on 5 cylinders.

Got DTC codes => P0301, 0304, 0305, 0306, 0300, 1399.
After searching in other posts, I replaced 1 coil and all codes cleared, EXCEPT for P0301 and P1399.
Compression test shows cylinders 2 - 6 @ ~ 210 psi, BUT cylinder #1 is ~ 110 psi (OH NO!!!).
Not sure if I adjusted the cylinder #1 valves correctly, but I will be doing that some time this week (or weekend). Also, from reading other posts, I'll probably install a new injector for cylinder #1 as well while I'm working around the area.

EGR cleaned,
all hoses and connectors inserted back into their originals, double triple checked.

Hope I'll be able to get her back up and running like before so I can enjoy the AEM and headers.

Thanks again for all your help.

CGL

OK update:

This time, I re-adjusted ALL valves and the engine now runs more quiet, no more "tick tick tick" valve sounds.
HOWEVER, the P1399 still remained, but I shortly confirmed my suspicion that it was my #1 cylinder INJECTOR!!
HOW? Prior to the valve re-adjustments I did a little test. With the engine running, I unplugged each of the coil connectors and checked for the engine to get weaker (as I unplugged each coil...then would reconnect). All cylinders re-acted appropriately, EXCEPT for #1 - NO RESPONSE, even with a different, working coil pack!!. Keeping in mind that I probably did a crappy valve adjustment job the first time, I did not jump to conclusion that the injector is bad.
So, AFTER valve adjustment, I SEAFOAMED it (intake, crankcase, and gas tank). Took her out for a "spirited" drive...THEN....the code went away! NO MORE CODES!!....I even noticed the engine felt and sounded like all 6 cylinders were going, even noticed the power/torque!
Then, to confirm of the bad injector, I unplugged the #1 cylinder's coil connector, and BAM, she started stuttering and shaking a bit (like before). I plugged it back in and YUP - SEAFOAM in gas tank cleared up the #1 cylinder's injector!
I went ahead and ordered 3 new injectors (currently running on 3 new and 3 old ones) to complete the set. Although the codes went away and engine ran great (like new, after seafoam and valve job), she occasionally stumbles and hesitates a LITTLE during idling (bad/clogged/F#$ked up injectors? lol)

Probably saved myself at least $900 in labor alone, and all thanks to you guys and "SEARCH". I hope my long @ss posts in this thread will help someone else, too!

BTW, my NEW personal REDLINE is now 5K, not 6 or 6 1/4......LMAO

fsttyms1

Congrats on fixing it.

And dont waste the cars true potential. Run it to redline, its designed to.

CGL

Thank you.

Now that I've got the timing marks better aligned and valves adjusted, I'll be visiting the redline pretty soon.

JterrorC

iTrader: (1)

damn efficient isnt he....how do you test the compression??

CGL

I bought one of those compression test gauge (hose with gauge on one end) at Schucks autoparts store.

Took out all spark plugs
removed the fuel pump fuse (driver's side dash)
Inserted compression gauge hose into spark plug hole and screwed hand tight.
Bribed my wife to keep gas pedal WOT as she turns the key to start for 3-4 seconds, repeat twice, for each cylinder.