Carson89X

Well, the time is here for me to service my 99 Tranny to smooth it out. My mechanic looked over my entire car and was shocked at how well kept it has been since I bought it at 91K. The only recommendation by him is a tranny flush.

After searching on here, I can torn between doing a flush, or just drain and fill 2-3 times?

What are my advantages/disadvantages to both? Why does Acura not recommned a flush?

Thansk in advance

fsttyms1

Honda recomends against a Flush, it can stir up too much inside the tranny. Just do the drain fill

Carson89X

I was talking to my Mechanic and he said to think about doing a flush without the cleaning agent, just "flushing" clean ATF fuid in there to clean it out.

What do you think? Also, is it 100% crucial to get the ATF Honda stuff? Or can I use the Dexcron stuff? I know it is "recommended by Honda"

tommiesay

Our Acura Only use HONDA ATF-Z1 its recommended....

fsttyms1

doesnt matter if its not using the "cleaning agent" its the fact that its forcing fluid out that can disloge and move stuff into other areas. Honda recomends against it why not follw what they recomend? And only use honda fluid. There are other ways of using dexron but you need a adative

Carson89X

I just wanted to make sure. Thanks for the help Chris!

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/B060200.PDF

Here is the service bulletin where they recommend AGAINST it....

fsttyms1

No prob. the drain fill is a good sat afternoon project to do your self

Carson89X

Yea, pretty much. My buddy was a mechanic before he was a cop, and has a garage full of tools and ramps. Time to swing by the Honda dealer for some ATF fluid.

Thanks for the bulletin Benz

russianDude

your tranny can fail regardless of your fluid drains or flushes...

copy252

makes sense to try to get it "not" fail by maintaining it tho.....

fsttyms1

Dont even need to jack it up to do the drain fill

Delirium

Beside flushing there is another way,i've drain the first 3 qt put back the plug,put3 new one,unplug the atf fluid line ,start her up until you got 3qt,stop the engine and so on until all old fluid comes out.Any cons against that???

fla-tls

That's a lot of pain for not a lot of gain. Your results won't be any better than the drain and fill technique.

It's that torque converter that you've got to get new fluid into. Drain/fill vs. cooler line technique will take the same amount of fluid and accomplish the same end result.

fast-tl

^^ I was gonna say the same thing; that's too much goddamned work! And for WHAT?

kuni808

A simple drain and fill is good. DO NOT DO A FLUSH!!!!. i just watched the Best Motoring DVD the "Vtec Club" issue. There is the owner and CEO of Spoon Sports on there. they go through that if you should drain and fill or flush. He said never flush cause when you flush a lot of particles can go to places you dont want. plus he even said do not do a flush on the motor as well. it makes sense though. he even concluded that he changes the tranny oil every motor oil change. but what he said makes sense. the tranny fluid goes though more harsh conditions than the motor oil considering the tranny oil never sees a cooler or drop in temp. so when i heard that it kind of makes sense. so dont do a flush. just a drain and fill 3x like honda recommends. tranny might perform better. i know mines did.

DLCU2

How many oz/bottles of the Acura ATF fluid does it take to fill up the tranny

Delirium

I was working on the rear supension while my mech was changing my wheel bearing,doing it this way new fluid push out the old atf out of the converter ,running the engine with the hose unplugged so this way you don't mix the old whit the new,seen many mech doing that to flush tranny,this way is more tranny friendly instead of using a flush machine.first time i owned an auto,always had stick shift ,so the drain and fill your mixing the new atf whit the old,and running the engine with the atf line unpluged the new push the old out ,so if i'm wrong please corect me.Iwas planning to do the drain fill myself but the car was on the lift,so my the mech proposed me that ,said to myself why not ,the guy been working on cars since 20 years....I'm not telling anybody how to work ,i was just assuming it was an alternative to flush machine or mixing old whit new atf thats all.

SodaLuvr

Either way is fine...as the purge method will still allow for old ATF to mix, as new ATF will come in contact with old fluid when it flows through the system.

A triple drain/fill, done a few hundred miles apart, will yield > 80% new fluid. This is only slightly less than what a purge would allow accomplish.

The cooler lines are generally a PITA. The fittings can be difficult to remove, and you'll often make a mess when purging the system.

I can see the intent though, as it wouldn't be feasible to drop the pan three times on transmission not containing a drain plug (in those cases, you should pump out the fluid from the dipstick tube for each drain/fill), but Honda transmissions have the drain plug, making it a no brainer.

Hondas take about 3 qts to drain/fill.

fla-tls

Just so you know, the cooler line method is how the flush machines work. The older ones used pressure - the newer ones use vacuum - Honda says NO to all of it.

Do a drain and fill.

BTW - on a flush machine (for an average tranny) you need 15-20 quarts of fluid to do it correctly. It WILL be mixing old and new fluid like a drain/fill. The only more complete method is a rebuild, where we remove the tranny and (of course) all of its fluid the old fashioned way. (But that's an expensive flush...)

Do a drain and fill.

End of story.

kuni808

I agree a drain and fill 3x will be perfect. i did that with mines and the color imediately changed. the third time it will be nice and red. but you will need total of 9 quarts. only 3 comes out at a time or even less. i had only 2 3/4 qts every time. drain and fill only!!!

TunedTL

I don't understand the drain and fill 2x, 3x just to get more % into the tranny. Don't you drain out flesh ATF by doing a second drain and fill after the first? Our goal is to get old ATF out, not the fresh ATF.
Correct me if I am wrong, TL uses a tranny pump to circulate the ATF anyway, does not matter the cooler line is disconnected or not. So this method is not the same as using machine to externally forcing fresh ATF in and sucking ATF out. In another work, disconnecting the tranny line is minimal invasive to the tranny, get more % ATF replaced, and not dumping out expensive fresh ATF.
It is a PITA to disconnect cooler lines, so is drain and fill 2x to 3x and watch your $4 per quart Honda Z1 down the drain.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Your mechanic is prolly just saying flush as in .... like you flush your motor sometimes by pouring in extra oil after it has drained just to get that extra little bit of sediment or dirty oil washed out of the pan ... not using a machine. That would be no big deal....but somewhat fruitless in this case.

fsttyms1

TunedTL

Kris,
Here is a table of % of old and fresh ATF for each drain and fill.

3.1 quarts are changed per drain and fill, tranny dry fill capacity is 7.6 quarts. Uniform mix of fresh and old ATF between drain and fills.

1x 2x 3x
Total 7.60 7.60 7.60
Fresh 3.10 4.94 6.77
Old 4.50 2.66 1.58
% Fresh 40.8% 64.9% 89.1%

Need 6.2 quarts fresh ATF to do 2x drain and fill, but only 4.94 of fresh ATF actaully stay in the tranny. 1.26 quart fresh ATF is wasted, resulting only 64.9% of total capacity replaced with fresh ATF.

Now after the first drain and fill, disconnet cooler line and get 3.1 quarts of old ATF out, it is easy to know when to shut off since fresh ATF is cherry red. Same 6.2 quarts used but none are wasted, 81.5% of total ATF is replaced with fresh ATF.

For 3x case, even more fresh ATF is wasted, get 14% increase by wasting 2.5 quarts of fresh ATF.

fsttyms1

and what cooler line are you talking about? the tl doesnt have a cooler

TunedTL

Kris, sorry for mis-using a name. Just tranny line that the pump uses to recirculate ATF. I am using it since this DIY person use it to connect a tranny cooler to it. See last couple of pictures of
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/184466/21

Just seems using 6 quarts of ATF by disconnecting tranny line to accomplish what 9 quarts does with 3x drain and fill is a more effecient use of resource.
Like Micheal says, it is a PITA to provide a drainage by disconneting the tranny line, but so is doing 2x un-necessary drain and fill: jack up the car (if you have any kind of drop), set parking brake, loosen drain bolt, drain ATF, tigthen drain bolt, fill ATF, lower car, release parking brake, drive...

SodaLuvr

Yes, but you forgetting that it isn't necessary to change ALL of the fluid.

You'd be surprised what a huge difference changing out 40% of the fluid will make. It is all that's needed to restore shift quality and renew oxidized base oils.

Also, when you do two drain/fills, say 5K apart, the new fluid will have a chance to "clean" the transmission to an extent. Especially since Honda transmissions do not have serviceable filters, slow/gradual drain/fills will slowly clean the transmission. If you change ALL of the fluid at once in a high mileage unit, there is that small, remote chance that you either deplete the fluid more rapidly by having it use up its cleaning properties immediately, or you may clog up an internal filter somewhere due to the great amount of cleaning action you are initiating.

TunedTL

Just trying to learn and not argue, how does 80% change of fresh ATF, either by 3x drain or fill or disconnecting the tranny line, deplete theses additives more rapidly?
I thought 2x, 3x drain and fill in a row is to increase % of replacement beyond the intitial drain and fill. 40% restores the balance of the entire system, but common sense says it will not last as long as 80% fresh ATF, or why everyone goes for 3x drain and fill in the first place.
I am just puzzled the method Delirium suggested has sound reasonings, but seems everyone kinds of put it down or little or no reason

SodaLuvr

1) The concept of the “gradual” fluid replacement is as follows: If you have a high-mileage, “dirty” transmission, drain/fill once with fresh fluid. Immediately after installing a partial fill of new fluid in the system, this new fluid will have fresh detergents that will “clean” the transmission to an extent. After a few thousand miles, any varnish and/or deposits removed by this new fluid will be held in suspension by the transmission fluid, and a second drain/fill will remove most of these deposits. It will also “replenish” the additive package, friction modifiers, and renew the oxidized base oils for a second time if they were exhausted during cleaning.

The “danger” I may see by doing a complete fluid exchange immediately is the possibility of rapidly removing a large amount of deposits at a given time, thus possibly overwhelming the non-serviceable filter and even “clogging” up the transmission. Of course, this chance is a bit remote, but to prevent this from occurring, a two partial fluid changes, spaced several thousand miles apart, will slowly remove deposits (if any) at a slow, safe rate.

I’ve found adding 4 ounces of Auto-RX to transmissions for 1500 miles will “accelerate” the cleaning process. It will clean much better than new fluid alone, but it is a cleaner and not a solvent. It will liquefy the deposits so it doesn’t run the risk of suddenly overwhelming the filter. After running 4 ounces of Auto-RX for 1500 miles, drain/fill with new fluid, followed by a second drain/fill after a few thousand miles. Again, it is not necessary to change ALL of the fluid.

2) Correct. Theoretically, 80% new fluid will last longer than 40% new fluid. However, it is not necessary to change all of the transmission fluid as the transmission fluid is capable of going a very long time before becoming completely depleted. A partial fluid “refreshment” periodically is enough to keep the additives replenished and the shift quality in check, and will further extend the life of the old fluid by at least 30,000 miles. In other words, it isn’t a bad idea, but it isn’t necessary either. If you’re really anal, do three drain/fills spaced a few thousand miles apart…but I doubt that you’ll gain much over draining and refilling twice (with the 2nd spaced a few thousand miles apart)…or even one drain/fill if your transmission has already been serviced regularly in the past.

The cooler line method sounds good on paper, but it isn’t always easy to remove the cooler lines. Sometimes they may be rusted on. More than likely, you’ll make a mess as well. Sometimes you’ll even need special tools to remove the lines. It just isn’t worth the trouble when draining and refilling will offer nearly the same benefits.

TunedTL

Michael, thanks for sharing, always find your postings helpful.
Seems the danger, remote as it can be, may apply to both methods. It does not apply only when you drive couple of thousands miles in between changes. But then they are almost like two separate drain and fills, not 2x or 3x with a short drive between that people mentioned here.
At the end, it is a personal choice, most of us are out of warranty and have to rely on Acura's goodwill in case a tranny failure >100K. In another word, it is of our interest to find a better method of servicing a problem tranny.
I have 2 drain and fill < 15K apart since my last tranny replacement, each time the ATF is dirty. Honda ATF Z1 may be good, but apparently not designed to handle heat generated by the tranny of our cars.
I am not an Amsoil dealer (actually I use mobil 5w20 for my engine oil), but found it is interesting that Amsoil put an anti machine flush article on their web site. Then suggest the cooler disconnect method on the same web page. Links for anyone who is interested.
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/filter_man_council01.pdf
http://www.amsoil.com/faqs/ATF_and_F...Procedures.pdf
Good discussion.

SodaLuvr

You're correct, referring to the drain/fills as "separate services" is probably a more accurate term...

Remember, Acura never recommended the 3x drain/fill as a routine service procedure. It was only recommended to be used in the event of transmission contamination with a non-Honda fluid.

"Dirty" ATF is a common misperception. ATF can turn brown and still be suitable for continued use. I've seen ATF that appeared bright red at 30,000 miles when analysis found it to be shot. I've also seen GM automatics with red fluid and over >100,000 miles on the same fluid. Color and odor can be very deceiving indicators of fluid condition, especially with the newer fluids that are designed to last well over 100,000 miles without serious wear, loss of shift feel, or shudder problems.

I've seen Honda ATF-Z1 go 60,000 miles without a change, and the fluid report came back fine despite an awful odor and brown color. Mopar ATF+4 can lose its dye in as little as 30,000 miles but has been field and bench tested for > 100,000 miles without durability problems. In fact, DC specifically notes in the owner's manual that the dye is not permanent, and the loss of dye and/or the odor does not constitute a fluid change.

If you're draining and refilling your transmission once every 30,000 miles, you're doing more maintenance than you have to. Btw, I'd only do the two drain/fill method if the transmission hasn't been serviced in 60K, otherwise, do one drain/fill every 30K. If you're going to do two drain/fills @ 30K intervals, you may as well just do one drain/fill every 15K...lol.

Honda should just remove the dipstick all together, upgrade the Z1 fluid slightly, and make the fluid a fill-for-life fluid in all applications where the vehicle is not used for towing.

TunedTL

This is OT but many members report problems along with burnt or black/brown ATF. My tranny developed a very noticable "clunk" when going from "P" to "D". Honda has a faq that explains the noise is normal but that noise was not there before I put on 30K on the replacement tranny, nor does it ever appear for my 1st tranny that lasted 80K.
After my last drain and fill, the clunk is gone but only came back 2 months. Seems directly related to the ATF losing its ability as it ages. It actually very common to find complains of dirty ATF along with shift problem and tranny noises on this forum. That is the main reason I bought a case of Amsoil Synthetic ATF off ebay. Enough for one day's worth of posting, good night.

SodaLuvr

You should do a fluid analysis of the old fluid...I bet that it will come back fine from a wear standpoint.

I do agree with you that some fluids leave much to be desired in retaining "shift feel," which was a huge goal in the new co-developed Dexron-VI fluid by Petro-Canuck and Afton.

Though the "clunk" may be there, its probably more of an annoyance than an actual problem. The fluid is probably fine from a wear standpoint, but if the "clunk" bothers you, I guess you could drain/fill again...but I'm still trying to imagine how fluid would cause a "clunk." Never had this happen, personally.

fsttyms1

my 2 cents, i dont know how the clunk is related either. it shouldnt be As for fluid change i did the drain fill at every oil change and that tranny lasted teh least amount of time about 25k. All the others were on the 50k change interval and outlasted the drain fill tranny by quite a bit. 1 even made it to 79k before it failed

TunedTL

Kris,
I read about your experience, which prompts me to think about other ways to service our troubled tranny. Drain and fill is a proven, safe method, but your experience tells me the conventional method may not be enough for TL's tranny. Who knows, perhaps tranny cooks Honda ATF Z1 just 2000 miles after a drain and fill.
I have thought about an external tranny filter due to TL's lack of servicable tranny filter. Amsoil flash point is significant higher because the base oil is synthetic. And disconnecting tranny line will allow more ATF to be "sacrificed" to our tranny. These measures may not be necessary for other trannies, but for ours, it maybe.
Michael,
In my case a $20 oil analysis is not cost effective than 3 quarts of Honda ATF cost $12 per drain and fill. Even at Amsoil's $7 per quart, changing the fluid still a better choice for me. Yes, you can learn about where the fluid is. Having gone through one tranny failure, personally I prefer to make the noise go away rather than live with it.