VipeR-ACR

Why is the TL-S never compared to the BMW 530i, or 540i? I would think the 540i is a closer comparison than the 330i. The 5 series is the size equivalent unlike the 330 which is smaller than the TL. Am I crazy? Or is it purely based on price, the car is put out of the TL-S's range? If so, BMW should frown becuase the TLS is almost as much of a car as the 540i. (Im gonna burn for that one) But you get my drift. Any thoughts?

tgif

It is because the price difference is way too much.

DJ Iceman

I agree with you completely. When I went to the Lexus board and asked for pros and cons of the TL-S vs. the GS430, though, I was attacked as being an ignoramus. "They're not in the same class!" I was told. Pricewise that's true, but performance- and luxury-wise they are. Same with the 530/540 and E-Class.

sixspdbrd

There are no comparison because there is no comparison.

chiawei

you wish that is true.

The 530i/540i would blow TL-S away in handling, braking, and assembly quality.

TL-S is great in terms of pure acceleration from 0-60. But it's not that fun to drive.

Unless TL-S become a rear drive, with a smarter transmission, beefier brakes, stronger chassis, and nearly instaneous throttle response. TL-S is just not on the same map.

vandy786

A 530 is a waste of money, IMO. I would go for the 540 at least.

rominl

well, the 5 series has a much better handling and braking as some of others pointed out. particularly the 540i sport, i think it's kinda in another league, tough for us to compete.

and i believe 530 are really for those who wants a 5 series but without the buck..... i would have saved more money for the 540i sport than buying any other 5 series

Steveb

Once you pass the $30K mark on cars your return for each additional dollar spent is decreased. The difference between a Corolla and Camry is a greater than going from an Acura TL-S to a BMW 5 series. The price difference is much greater between the Acura and the Bimmer. You're paying a lot more money for a little more car. Many of those that think the 5 series is light years ahead of a TL-S have been influenced by marketing and advertising. They also see the price tag and think this must be a great car if it cost that much. I was all excited before I test drove a 5 series because I believed all the hype. My expectations were very high so I was a tad disappointed after my test drive. It was a nice car with limitations just like any other car. Did I think it was worth the price tag? No. However, I think most people that buy it are not concerned too much about price. They are willing to pay thousands more for a little more car with a better status symbol.

chiawei

530i is not that much cheaper than 540i.

The difference was around $5k. $5k isn't much when buying a $50K car.

The problem with 540i is that the car's steering feedback is worse than 530i. 540i's re-circulating ball is much worse than 530i's rack and pinion system. 540i's steering is extremely heavy at low speed making parking difficult. At high speed 540i's steering is way too light.

530i on the other hand is much better. Higher HP is always nice, but fun to drive is much more important. Plus, you can always super charge the 530i to over 350HP.

chiawei

steveb, yeah right.

Cruising on highway five in excess of 120 mph, you will notice how stable the 5 series is. The car simply sticks to the ground. Brakes never fades from excessive braking from 120 to less than 50.

This is where TL-S/TL will fail. TL is a family car. Nothing special. It just not as much fun to drive as the E39. Not even close.

evolaerok

My dad had so much influence on me buying my 323i. He's had 540i's and now a 740i. They are great, but not worth the money. Now I will not lie, the TL has no chance to the 5ers in terms of refinement and balance, but the 5ers are not light years ahead of our cars. Germans have heritage. Building cars for at least a 100 years. I think our Japanese engineers are damn good considering that Lexus and Acura engineers have been in business for only a decade or so. The bimmers are fun, but by all means not that great to just wipe the Acura off. Besides if I paid over 50K I would swear my car is better and does not compete with the likes of a 32K car...... <~~~This is me yawning right now................

TundraMan

I sold my 1997 BMW 540I to buy my TL-S. I think the Acura will be a much more reliable vehicle when it ages and the mileage racks up. The BMW seemed sportier than the TL-S. Interior trim on the BMW seemed very cheap. My Mercedes E430 seems like a higher quality vehicle than the BMW and on par with the Acura. The Acura is a great near luxury car and an excellent near luxury car for the money. I look forward to every moment i'm behind the wheel.

TundraMan

bobatimez

I will have to side with the TLs. i drove a 2001 540i hard at the cali speedway and got back in my non type s fixed up TL and love it more than ever. the bimmer was more solid, but for the money, it better be. stock to stock, the bimmer wins, but add a little spice to the TL and we win with and extra 17k+ in the bank.

AC

Ok, having owned a TL (pretty modified...at the time spent over $10K) still not on par performance wise in respect to power, handling, braking, overall feel, etc. As far as quality...c'mon guys you're only kidding yoursef if you think the TL/TLS is equal to the 5ers or even the E class.

I think this has been going on for some time now, and my hats off to you...there's nothing wrong with liking your car and you should.

I forget who said it, but once you start hitting $50K, then another $5K isn't THAT big of a deal. I don't think people buy 540's with the intention of "should I buy a TLS so I can put $17K in my bank".

Chiawei, I too like the handling feel of the 530i, but would take the 540i any day over the 530...just my opinion.

I agree, the Acura will probably be more reliable than the BMW in the long haul. I guess I have the 540i cuz I never owned a car for more that 3 years and I move onto something else after that.

And why is the TLS never compared to the 540i? I don't know, that's a question that needs to be aske to the MT, Road and Track, Car and Driver guys. They are the experts, and you wonder why they never have the 2 cars in the same "shootout", Why? Cuz they too feel like it's not in the same league or else don't you think they would? I think if you owned a GS430 or a 540i and someone posed this question to you, you'd probably have the same response that Chiawei and I just posted.

evolaerok

Totally agree!

1SICKLEX

Seriously?

Why the tl is not compared to a 540?

Why is a Mazda Miata not compared to a Z3?

Why is a 540/GS 400 not compared to a S-class benz?

This kinda question is exactly why Japanese entry level luxery cars are so @#$% long (with the IS 300 as the only exception) big for some reason equates luxery in the states. Well it really is not many times.

How about prestige, 540 BMW, heck they don't even like to be compared to the GS 400/430.

The 540 is also based on a 540 platform not shared with a I dunno let's say a strected Mini-Cooper platform.

Iceman some of us may have jumped on you but really there is absolutely no comparison.

530 is not in my opinion a waste of money (525 maybe)....

In all honesty the 5 series sedan is the "Standard" all other sports sedans are judged and with good reason.

DJ Iceman

Actually, I have seen people compare the Miata to the original Z3 1.8.

Okay, at the risk of belaboring the obivous, different people have different priorities when it comes to buying things, especially something as expensive as a car. Even wealthy folks (except for maybe the super-rich who can drop a couple hundred g's at a blackjack table without blinking an eye, for example) have to prioritize their spending.

Some people who can afford a 540i aren't going to buy one, because for whatever personal reasons they have, it doesn't meet their needs. Others may pass on the GS430 or GS300. Some will pass on the TL.

I agree that the 5-series is considered the standard for luxury/performance sedans. I disagree that it SHOULD be the standard, however. It is a fairly tired, uninspiring design with an interior that doesn't measure up to the competition (be that Mercedes, Lexus, or whomever), and quality/reliability problems that really shouldn't exist. Maybe the current GS should actually be the benchmark? I don't know. But I see nothing wrong with comparing cars within a class (or even up or down a class, as some would see it) to try and determine where your PERSONAL best value mix ends up.

And don't worry, 1SICKLEX, I'm not really taking any of this personally. We just have different opinions on some things (yet we agree on a lot, too!), which is just fine. That's what a forum like this is for!

Steveb

How many Americans cruise going 120 mph on our hwys? I would guess about .001% of the population. Excessive breaking? We are talking real world driving experiences. Are you saying you have to drive to those extremes to realize the advantages the 5 series has over a TL-S?

P.S. The 528 I test drove without the sports package had considerable body lean.

chiawei

The point i am trying to make is simple. I want a car that is fun to drive.

530i IMHO is one of the best handling sports sedan you can buy. I don't like the heavy steering in 540i/M5 (stupid re-circulating ball design).

TL-S is a great entry level car. Not saying it is a bad car. But its purpose is much different from the 5 series.

Granted BMW had probably the worst interior materials of all luxury brand. But I can careless. The car is just a blast to drive. Everytime I switch from my 530i to another car in my household, i just can't stand it. My TL's steering response is vague. It's just not rewarding to drive.

Plus TL suffers from poor assembly quality as well. Even though my 530i is no squeak free (stupid rubbing of driver seat). It's far better than noises inside my TL. My TL and my colleagues TL-S feels like its coming apart compare to E39's solid construction.

I know BMW is not going to last me that long. But to me it is not that important as after 2-3 years, i am making room for a new generation M5. So this is not so much a concern for me. Moreover, i am using it as a weekend car. Reliability issue is not a problem for me.

chiawei

No. I am simply pointing out obvious example in which you can immediate see E39's advantage over TL.

But daily driving is also quiet obvious.

1. TL's steering response is poor and mushy at best. TL-S slightly better.
2. Brake on the other hand is a real weakness for both TL and TL-S.
3. Handling is also poor due to softer suspension setting and poor tire choice.
4. E39's assembly is better than TL. TL/TL-S does not really have the same assembly quality as other honda product.
5. sound insulation is also poor in TL.

All of the above are very noticeable for me.

Webologist

True, the 540 is a COMPACT car with cheap Macpherson struts like an econo car but 22 additional horsepower. The 530i even has standard Leatherette upholstery (read plastic seats). OMG this is a funny post. There is no comparison, give me a break...

91M5

The strut systems is not necessarily the best design, much like the inline six, but...BMW does them better than anyone. How can they keep winning handling comparisons with such an outdated system? Because it works better than everyone else's new one.

I had a ride in an E39 M5 on Buttonwillow this past weekend driven by an instructor. You never really understand why certain people won't buy anything but a BMW until you drive them at the limit. Then you understand. My car is not slow but the new M5 was just otherworldly for a car of that weight. Great balance at the limit, great brakes, warp speed acceleration past 100mph.

And yes, the 100 or so students at the driving school do drive their BMW's in a manner where the better brakes and handling are required.

As for quality, I would never argue with the point that BMW's are expensive to drive. However, this is different than durability. My car has 142k miles on it and did not burn any oil all weekend -- this in a car meant to use a bit. There were E30 M3's with 160k miles on the original engines and these cars were tracked regularly. Even a brand new Suby WRX had a steering pump fitting come loose. No company is immune from these things.

The fit and finish of my wife's '94 Maxima seem to diminish as the miles climbed over 100k. Great car for the money but not meant to be a real high mileage car.

AC

I don't think there is anything wrong with comparing the TLS to the 540i, it's just a personal taste. I loved my TL, but can honestly say that I don't think I'll buy another Japanese car after having driven my 540i this long, but that's just me. I think Chiawei hit it dead on. I too had the same feeling about the TL as he pointed out, but was not dissapointed cuz you can't expect TOO much out of a $30K car and that's all I asked from my TL.

Steveb

Points 1, 2, 3 and 5 or just flat out not true and point 4 is arguable. Just read the many reviews of the TL-S and you will not see such harsh negative language in the reviews. You will see mostly positive reviews and language like these excerpts from Carpoint.com "Both 3.2 TL trims are fun to drive. The Type-S naturally handles a little better than the base trim with such things as its firmer suspension and larger tires. Its steering is rather heavy, but quick. And its Vehicle Stability Assist system makes for more confident driving." and "Both 3.2 TL trims have front-wheel drive, but feel much like good rear-drive European sports-luxury sedans partly because they have a race-car-style, fully independent double-wishbone suspension. The 3.2 TL remains a throw-down bargain. The same can be said for the new Type-S trim, which further enhances the value of the Acura nameplate."

You're entitled to your opinion but the pros disagree with you.

AC

And they disagree with most of you too. Ask yourself, why don't you ever see an TL/TLS vs. GS400 vs. 540i? I mean NONE of the mags (pros compared to 99.9% of all of us here) have this comparison. It's almost like trying to compare a Civic Si to the TL, they're about the same in performance.

No one is arguing that the TL/TLS is great value, but the steering of the TL is not THAT responsive, and the brakes are mooshy, but this is in comparison to the 5er. Now it may not be the case against a Toyota, Nissan, or whatever.

SCWells72

Jeeeeeeeez! You TL/TL-S guys talk SO much based on what magazines and Web sites say...just go drive a 540i (or GS430 or M5 or whatever) and see for yourself! There's a HUGE difference between the cars, both in terms of performance/handling AND luxury! I can say this authoritatively because I owned a TL, drove the TL-S and 540i many times, and traded against a GS430.

Yes, you own the best ride that $31K can buy, hands down! But don't assume that any $$$ over that amount is being wasted. Again, think about the Accord EX V6 (or Grand Prix GTP) buyer who thinks the same thing about his/her car vs. the TL-S...think about your answer to him/her.

I've done a partial checklist before, but I'll try it again. Does the TL-S have (various from 5-series/GS-series/A6/E-class):

* nearly perfect (50/50) weight distribution
* dual-zone climate control
* power tilt/telescopic steering
* power front/rear headrests
* trip computer
* scheduled cabin cooling
* electrochromic side mirrors
* moisture-sensitive wipers
* moisture-resistant windshield/front windows
* auto-levelling HIDs
* real leather all around
* real wood anywhere
* power lumbar
* 8-10 way power passenger seat
* one-touch up/down for all windows and sunroof
* auto on/off headlights/fogs

...and on and on. Yes, the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point, especially when you're talking about cars that cost almost as much (MORE?!) than houses(!!!), but I'd still say that the 540i, GS430, A6 4.2, E430, etc., just take the performance/luxury mix that the TL-S offers up a few notches, and not surprisingly, you have to pay for it...

91M5

What would be even better is to get an M5 without any of that crap except power windows. The weight savings would make it almost unbeatable. I was told by this owner that he had heard the navigation system alone adds 150 lbs.

Steveb

On one hand you say the following negative things about the TL-S:

"1. TL's steering response is poor and mushy at best. TL-S slightly better.
2. Brake on the other hand is a real weakness for both TL and TL-S.
3. Handling is also poor due to softer suspension setting and poor tire choice.
4. E39's assembly is better than TL. TL/TL-S does not really have the same assembly quality as other honda product.
5. sound insulation is also poor in TL"

On the other hand you say No one is arguing that the TL/TLS is great value. How can you believe it's a great value if you honestly believe what you stated above??? How can you describe "a great value" by using adjectives such as poor, mushy and weak? It sounds like you think it's piece of crap. Bad handling, bad steering and bad breaking.( All these are very important.)

I'm not sure if you're talking in general terms or relative to the Bimmer. A Ferrari will out handle a 540 but I'm not going to say the 540 has poor handling because of that. I can understand if you made the following statement. The TL-S handles well but the 540 handles better. That's a more believable statement. One that would lend you more credibility.

AC

No one said it was a piece of crap, period. What I mean by great value is look at how much car you get for $30K. You get a lot, but you also have to sacrafice some things due to keeping cost down.
The mushy brakes and not responsive handling, like I stated was compared to my 540i, not in general. Ofcourse the car is more responsive than a Buick, to make an example. The reliability may be a different story in which I never argued that my 540i may die in 3 to 4 years where as the TL would keep going and going. I didn't trade my TL cuz I hated it or thought it was a POS. I got rid of it cuz my wife wanted a SUV, otherwise, I may have traded up for the TL-S since, again, I think is the BEST BANG for $30K.

1SICKLEX

Iceman u are cool as ice.....

What's the saying "Own one and you'll understand".....

Steveb

So why do you think it's such a great value? You get a lot of what? After criticizing just about every important performance area I'm curious to know how you leap from all that criticism to it's a great value. The only thing you have said specifically that was not negative was "it's more responsive than a Buick." Certainly that alone does not lead you to believe it's a great value. I don't think I've ever seen anyone talk so negatively about something and then turn around and say it's a great value.

Mr Hyde

All you guys who dont even own my car can all go talk crapp about it, degrade, and put it down somewhere else.

The reason the cars arent compared is simple. Why dont you compare a Toyota Camry to a TL-S?? Same exact reason why you wouldnt compare the TL-S to a 540.